H/S Straight Ps - which firms Forum

[Anonymous User]

This is weird, there is someone from WUSTL with a S&C summer. I've heard top 5% around here is good enough for V5 (minus WLRK, which is basically impossible from WUSTL). Now you're saying you need 6 HP's from H as well? What's the estimate class rank of a 6 HP person?

Top 40% at graduation is around a 3.6. Assuming that holds for 1L specifically (it probably doesn't), a 3.6 is about 6 Hs, depending on the distribution of Hs among 1L courses and whether any of those Hs are DSs. So roughly top 40% seems plausible.

[Anonymous User]

This is weird, there is someone from WUSTL with a S&C summer. I've heard top 5% around here is good enough for V5 (minus WLRK, which is basically impossible from WUSTL). Now you're saying you need 6 HP's from H as well? What's the estimate class rank of a 6 HP person?

S&C is different than peer firms in this respect. It puts less weight on school and more weight on performance. They'll kick the tires on someone with top grades from pretty much any school.

[PeanutsNJam]

This is weird, there is someone from WUSTL with a S&C summer. I've heard top 5% around here is good enough for V5 (minus WLRK, which is basically impossible from WUSTL). Now you're saying you need 6 HP's from H as well? What's the estimate class rank of a 6 HP person?

Top 40% at graduation is around a 3.6. Assuming that holds for 1L specifically (it probably doesn't), a 3.6 is about 6 Hs, depending on the distribution of Hs among 1L courses and whether any of those Hs are DSs. So roughly top 40% seems plausible.

Oh nvm I thought 6 HP's would be like top 20% or something but 40% makes sense.

[nothingtosee]

This is weird, there is someone from WUSTL with a S&C summer. I've heard top 5% around here is good enough for V5 (minus WLRK, which is basically impossible from WUSTL). Now you're saying you need 6 HP's from H as well? What's the estimate class rank of a 6 HP person?

Top 40% at graduation is around a 3.6. Assuming that holds for 1L specifically (it probably doesn't), a 3.6 is about 6 Hs, depending on the distribution of Hs among 1L courses and whether any of those Hs are DSs. So roughly top 40% seems plausible.

Oh nvm I thought 6 HP's would be like top 20% or something but 40% makes sense.

The 2L and 3L courses are graded much easier, and median after 1L is 3-4 H's. So I don't know exactly where 6 H's puts you (I'd defer to TripTrip for that), but I bet it's closer to top 20% than top 40%.

[cjw564]

The difference between H and S is noticeable for OP.

If you are at S, you will most likely get a V20 in NYC because so few SLS students want to work in the NY market.

On the other hand, if you are at H, the sheer number of people competing for all the major markets (NY/DC/Cali) will put you at a huge disadvantage. However, vault is NOT a good guide for grade selectivity. Cravath is in play with straight p's at HLS but Sullcrom is definitely out unless you are the son/daughter of a partner or major client. It all depends on you personal circumstances - if you have top notch work experience and a compelling story, you are competitive for all the NY firms other than Wachtell/Sullcrom/highly competitive boutiques.

However, if you are a kjd with straight p's at HLS and nothing shines on your resume - try to get an inhouse internship with a MAJOR corporation this summer to demonstrate your ability to work with and understand their clients. Failing that, stay away from even semi-competitive firms (Vault's guide on selectivity is a good metric to use) and focus on NYC/YOUR HOME MARKET.

Yea you must be like a Stanford summer at S&C or something because this is some strange cross between an S&C troll (you're not getting Cravath with straight P's without some incredible factor) and an SLS troll.

You will need 2-3 H's to be competitive at the csm/dpw level firm and maybe 4 for S&C, although it can happen with less. Wachtell and S&C are not in the same bracket of selectivity. But assuming straight P's, none of the V5 will be your targets.

FWIW S&C's grade cuttoff at HLS seems ancedotally to be a pretty firm (and automatic!) 6 Hs. Every single person with I know with 6 Hs, including a poor interviewer/KJD with 6, got a callback and every single person with 5 or fewer, including a dazzling interviewer with 5, did not.

Fair enough. My bad. I don't think it could be that different from comparable top firms though (IME).

I am at HLS and I know one or two people with straight P's and ok work experience (not bulge bracket ibank or MBB) at Cravath for the class of 2015, 2016, and 2017. Sullcrom has the one of the lowest yield rate of the V10's at HLS. If you have 6 H's here, you will most likely have a couple V10 offers. Most of the people with the grades for S&C that I know of chose other firms (DPW, STB, Kirkland, Cleary, Paul Weiss, etc) over S&C because it has a bad reputation at HLS.

Edit: I never said that Sullcrom is even CLOSE to Wachtell in selectivity. For Wachtell, you need Sullcrom+ grades (their cutoff is remored to be 7 H's at HLS), great work experience (if you are on the borderline grade-wise), and be an amazing interviewer. However, if you have great work experience and can dazzle in an interview, at H at least, you have a shot at all V10's except Sullcrom (because of their grade centric hiring model) and Wachtell with straight P's.

[lawlorbust]

[...]

Yea you must be like a Stanford summer at S&C or something because this is some strange cross between an S&C troll (you're not getting Cravath with straight P's without some incredible factor) and an SLS troll.

You will need 2-3 H's to be competitive at the csm/dpw level firm and maybe 4 for S&C, although it can happen with less. Wachtell and S&C are not in the same bracket of selectivity. But assuming straight P's, none of the V5 will be your targets.

FWIW S&C's grade cuttoff at HLS seems ancedotally to be a pretty firm (and automatic!) 6 Hs. Every single person with I know with 6 Hs, including a poor interviewer/KJD with 6, got a callback and every single person with 5 or fewer, including a dazzling interviewer with 5, did not.

Fair enough. My bad. I don't think it could be that different from comparable top firms though (IME).

I mean, I just don't see why you consider yourself qualified at all to make any statements about HLS EIP. Do you have any insight that isn't grounded in something else that you've read before on TLS?

Just curious.

[jbagelboy]

[...]

Yea you must be like a Stanford summer at S&C or something because this is some strange cross between an S&C troll (you're not getting Cravath with straight P's without some incredible factor) and an SLS troll.

You will need 2-3 H's to be competitive at the csm/dpw level firm and maybe 4 for S&C, although it can happen with less. Wachtell and S&C are not in the same bracket of selectivity. But assuming straight P's, none of the V5 will be your targets.

FWIW S&C's grade cuttoff at HLS seems ancedotally to be a pretty firm (and automatic!) 6 Hs. Every single person with I know with 6 Hs, including a poor interviewer/KJD with 6, got a callback and every single person with 5 or fewer, including a dazzling interviewer with 5, did not.

Fair enough. My bad. I don't think it could be that different from comparable top firms though (IME).

I mean, I just don't see why you consider yourself qualified at all to make any statements about HLS EIP. Do you have any insight that isn't grounded in something else that you've read before on TLS?

Just curious.

I've been around the block a few times.

[Anonymous User]

This is weird, there is someone from WUSTL with a S&C summer. I've heard top 5% around here is good enough for V5 (minus WLRK, which is basically impossible from WUSTL). Now you're saying you need 6 HP's from H as well? What's the estimate class rank of a 6 HP person?

Top 40% at graduation is around a 3.6. Assuming that holds for 1L specifically (it probably doesn't), a 3.6 is about 6 Hs, depending on the distribution of Hs among 1L courses and whether any of those Hs are DSs. So roughly top 40% seems plausible.

Oh nvm I thought 6 HP's would be like top 20% or something but 40% makes sense.

Not to split hairs but, IMO, 40% is a low estimate for 6Hs (It's pretty accepted that median = 3H).

The 1L curve is significantly less generous than the 2L/3L curve (seminars/small courses and clinics are uncurved). And S&C, as has been stated by others, has a quirky selection criteria. To get a "shot" at a V5 from HLS, significant below median is fine (1-2H). I would add that no one I know at HLS really thinks in terms of "V5" firms; I don't think that anyone here really perceives those firms (sans WLRK) as being measurably more desirable than other firms in, say, the V20.

Added:

To the OP, second the advice to bid NY/home market. Run your bid list through OCS and get a few mock interviews in. I definitely wouldn't sweat not getting offers out of EIP, but make sure you actually put effort into it.

[Anonymous User]

I am probably going to finish this year with straight Ps. Which firms should i realistically be looking at? I'm okay with going anywhere.

SRZ. You can thank me later.

Certified FACT. Even (especially?) if Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

The difference between H and S is noticeable for OP.

If you are at S, you will most likely get a V20 in NYC because so few SLS students want to work in the NY market.

On the other hand, if you are at H, the sheer number of people competing for all the major markets (NY/DC/Cali) will put you at a huge disadvantage. However, vault is NOT a good guide for grade selectivity. Cravath is in play with straight p's at HLS but Sullcrom is definitely out unless you are the son/daughter of a partner or major client. It all depends on you personal circumstances - if you have top notch work experience and a compelling story, you are competitive for all the NY firms other than Wachtell/Sullcrom/highly competitive boutiques.

However, if you are a kjd with straight p's at HLS and nothing shines on your resume - try to get an inhouse internship with a MAJOR corporation this summer to demonstrate your ability to work with and understand their clients. Failing that, stay away from even semi-competitive firms (Vault's guide on selectivity is a good metric to use) and focus on NYC/YOUR HOME MARKET.

Yea you must be like a Stanford summer at S&C or something because this is some strange cross between an S&C troll (you're not getting Cravath with straight P's without some incredible factor) and an SLS troll.

You will need 2-3 H's to be competitive at the csm/dpw level firm and maybe 4 for S&C, although it can happen with less. Wachtell and S&C are not in the same bracket of selectivity. But assuming straight P's, none of the V5 will be your targets.

The above advice is also very wrong, at least for SLS (can't speak to HLS). You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps (though note that due to the change in the FedLit grades, 99% of people will have at least 1 H by OCI). Yes, it's true you have no shot at WLRK, and basically no chance at S&C. But you can easily get V5 and V10 NY offices with straight Ps from SLS. They're actually some of the least grade-selective offices at Stanford's OCI.

OP, what you need to work on now/over the summer are 1) networking like it's your job and 2) working on your interview skills. If you're a good interviewer, OCI will be fine for you. If you're a bad interviewer, it's going to be a rough time.

[jbagelboy]

The difference between H and S is noticeable for OP.

If you are at S, you will most likely get a V20 in NYC because so few SLS students want to work in the NY market.

On the other hand, if you are at H, the sheer number of people competing for all the major markets (NY/DC/Cali) will put you at a huge disadvantage. However, vault is NOT a good guide for grade selectivity. Cravath is in play with straight p's at HLS but Sullcrom is definitely out unless you are the son/daughter of a partner or major client. It all depends on you personal circumstances - if you have top notch work experience and a compelling story, you are competitive for all the NY firms other than Wachtell/Sullcrom/highly competitive boutiques.

However, if you are a kjd with straight p's at HLS and nothing shines on your resume - try to get an inhouse internship with a MAJOR corporation this summer to demonstrate your ability to work with and understand their clients. Failing that, stay away from even semi-competitive firms (Vault's guide on selectivity is a good metric to use) and focus on NYC/YOUR HOME MARKET.

Yea you must be like a Stanford summer at S&C or something because this is some strange cross between an S&C troll (you're not getting Cravath with straight P's without some incredible factor) and an SLS troll.

You will need 2-3 H's to be competitive at the csm/dpw level firm and maybe 4 for S&C, although it can happen with less. Wachtell and S&C are not in the same bracket of selectivity. But assuming straight P's, none of the V5 will be your targets.

The above advice is also very wrong, at least for SLS (can't speak to HLS). You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps (though note that due to the change in the FedLit grades, 99% of people will have at least 1 H by OCI). Yes, it's true you have no shot at WLRK, and basically no chance at S&C. But you can easily get V5 and V10 NY offices with straight Ps from SLS. They're actually some of the least grade-selective offices at Stanford's OCI.

OP, what you need to work on now/over the summer are 1) networking like it's your job and 2) working on your interview skills. If you're a good interviewer, OCI will be fine for you. If you're a bad interviewer, it's going to be a rough time.

Fwiw, I wasn't talking about SLS (sorry if that wasn't clear). I don't know much about that.

[TripTrip]

You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps

At HLS, all three average around 6Hs and have minimums around 1 or 2 Hs.

The Vault Selectivity list roughly mirrors the data I have for HLS grade requirements. (OCI outcome data for 700 HLS students with grades and firms.)

[Anonymous User]

You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps

At HLS, all three average around 6Hs and have minimums around 1 or 2 Hs.

The Vault Selectivity list roughly mirrors the data I have for HLS grade requirements. (OCI outcome data for 700 HLS students with grades and firms.)

When I did OCI at SLS, several friends went to Skadden. One had 1 H and one had 10 Hs. Another with 1 H went to PW. The NYC firms seemed to have a good mix of students pretty clearly in the top end of the class (8+ Hs) and those with 0-2 Hs.

[jbagelboy]

You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps

At HLS, all three average around 6Hs and have minimums around 1 or 2 Hs.

The Vault Selectivity list roughly mirrors the data I have for HLS grade requirements. (OCI outcome data for 700 HLS students with grades and firms.)

Do you think Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, and Wachtell have basically the same selectivity for HLS students? (In the vault selectivity survey they trade places each year, I think MTO in 2015 and W&C for 2016). I know a bunch of students wind up splitting between them.

[rpupkin]

You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps

At HLS, all three average around 6Hs and have minimums around 1 or 2 Hs.

The Vault Selectivity list roughly mirrors the data I have for HLS grade requirements. (OCI outcome data for 700 HLS students with grades and firms.)

Do you think Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, and Wachtell have basically the same selectivity for HLS students? (In the vault selectivity survey they trade places each year, I think MTO in 2015 and W&C for 2016). I know a bunch of students wind up splitting between them.

W&C and MTO are similarly selective. I'd say Wachtell is a bit more grade-conscious than the other two.

[Anonymous User]

You absolutely can get Skadden, Cravath, or DPW (NY offices) with straight Ps

At HLS, all three average around 6Hs and have minimums around 1 or 2 Hs.

The Vault Selectivity list roughly mirrors the data I have for HLS grade requirements. (OCI outcome data for 700 HLS students with grades and firms.)

Above anon. I was only referring to SLS–again, I can't speak to HLS, and if OP is at HLS, then he should listen to TripTrip and other posters ITT.

Do you think Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, and Wachtell have basically the same selectivity for HLS students? (In the vault selectivity survey they trade places each year, I think MTO in 2015 and W&C for 2016). I know a bunch of students wind up splitting between them.

W&C and MTO are similarly selective. I'd say Wachtell is a bit more grade-conscious than the other two.

From my observations and based on the grades data SLS provides, W&C, MTO, and WLRK are basically all equally selective when it comes to grades. I've heard, anecdotally, that W&C is the biggest stickler about LR, but have no idea if that's true or not.