IBR + PSLF woes Forum

[zot1]

In February I applied to change from IBR to REPAYE so I could reduce my monthly payment from about 440 to about 280

last night I got emails from FedLoanServicing. So naturally I thought cool, they must have finally processed my REPAYE application.

I open the emails and see that I have been placed on administrative forebearance for April and that I have a $3000 loan payment due on May 19.

Currently on hold to try to figure out WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON

[GreenEggs]

Man that was tough to read. It's for reasons like this that I think the non PSLF LRAP programs are pretty solid

How many schools offer that now?

Probably just a couple

Can we get a full list running? The people need to know. And by the people, I mean me.

Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. NYU also has one that's not tied to PSLF but I don't think you can choose to go that path, you can only get it if you don't qualify for PSLF

Yeah the income for that one NYU plan is so low. I need to read up more on the Columbia LRAP.

Columbia's is 50k and then 30% of what you make over that 50k. Depending on what your salary is, it's not that bad considering they could be making 3k in payments every month for you for 10 years

[somethingElse]

First off - fuck, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, OP. Especially in that those 4 months won't count towards your 120...that sounds beyond messed up. Also, thank you so much for posting this and making us all aware of what can go wrong regarding these programs.

To you/whomever doesn't mind replying, I too have a few Qs about IBR/PSLF/LRAPs.

1) So obviously most schools' LRAPs utilize IBR/PSLF. They also set different income 'caps' in the amount that you can make without having to make your IBR payment. So it is this cap (and the fine print that goes along with it) that makes these LRAPs 'better' or 'worse' than each other. E.g. School A's cap is 100k before you have to contribute towards your IBR payments, and School B's cap is 80k. All schools are utilizing the same governmental programs, they are just attaching their own program (LRAP) on top of it to help students out, and it's how they add on to these governmental programs that makes distinguishes their LRAPs, correct?

2) Nony Mouse mentioned that you don't actually have to certify your employment for PLSF until the 120 payments are up. But if I'm understanding correctly, this is a completely separate certification from the IBR certification that everyone must do in order to have payments count towards their 120, right? And this goes for every school's LRAP too? Meaning there isn't a school that both utilizes IBR/PSLF and is able to avoid this process - it is completely through FedLoan or whomever your loans are through. I'm aware of HYS and Columbia's LRAPs that don't use IBR/PSLF altogether, and obviously those would avoid this issue.

3) I noticed you said you consolidated your loans somewhat. This might be a really dumb question, but is there any way you could have consolidated your loans completely into one single loan? And also, any way that you would be able to avoid FedLoan completely?

[FlanAl]

Man that was tough to read. It's for reasons like this that I think the non PSLF LRAP programs are pretty solid

How many schools offer that now?

Probably just a couple

Can we get a full list running? The people need to know. And by the people, I mean me.

Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. NYU also has one that's not tied to PSLF but I don't think you can choose to go that path, you can only get it if you don't qualify for PSLF

Yeah the income for that one NYU plan is so low. I need to read up more on the Columbia LRAP.

Columbia's is 50k and then 30% of what you make over that 50k. Depending on what your salary is, it's not that bad considering they could be making 3k in payments every month for you for 10 years

Cornell was pretty similar but they switched this year. I had to contribute more than I do now but my loans were actually getting paid. They aren't any more but it at least feels like I have more spending money. I'm happy that this thread exists. Now that my school switched and I have to do IBR etc. it's good to have a place to turn.

[GreenEggs]

Columbia's is 50k and then 30% of what you make over that 50k. Depending on what your salary is, it's not that bad considering they could be making 3k in payments every month for you for 10 years

Cornell was pretty similar but they switched this year. I had to contribute more than I do now but my loans were actually getting paid. They aren't any more but it at least feels like I have more spending money. I'm happy that this thread exists. Now that my school switched and I have to do IBR etc. it's good to have a place to turn.

Yeah I think a number of places switched once PSLF came out. I wouldn't be surprised if Columbia ends up going the NYU route and making the non-PSLF only an option for positions that don't qualify for PSLF

[Tanicius]

3) I noticed you said you consolidated your loans somewhat. This might be a really dumb question, but is there any way you could have consolidated your loans completely into one single loan? And also, any way that you would be able to avoid FedLoan completely?

Yeah, I could have, but when you conslidate two loans, both loans take on the highest interest rate between the two. So some of my loans have higher interest rates, and I don't want the rest of my loans taking on that interest rate, so I'm just keeping all of them as is.

[Anonymous User]

This is why I am terrified of sending in my PSLFP form. I currently have all my loans under Navient and after 4 years of dealing with them I've noticed a significant improvement over the last year or two. Plus I've learned how to deal with them after many frustrations over the early years. But the second I send that form in it will switch my loans to FedLoan Servicing and I know it will be a world of pain.

Btw, a tip for those with Navient. The person you speak to on the phone has tremendous power. they can do 90% of all the things they send to the back office right when they're on the phone with you. Ask them to do it, and if they don't just call back the second the back office fails to do anything and get the person on the phone to do it right there and then.

[kay2016]

This is why I am terrified of sending in my PSLFP form. I currently have all my loans under Navient and after 4 years of dealing with them I've noticed a significant improvement over the last year or two. Plus I've learned how to deal with them after many frustrations over the early years. But the second I send that form in it will switch my loans to FedLoan Servicing and I know it will be a world of pain.

Btw, a tip for those with Navient. The person you speak to on the phone has tremendous power. they can do 90% of all the things they send to the back office right when they're on the phone with you. Ask them to do it, and if they don't just call back he second the back office fails to do anything and get he person on the phone to do it right there and then.

So is there a reason to send in your PSLF yet? I graduate in May, so forgive my ignorance here. But wouldn't it make sense to wait to certify so as not to lose your less terrible servicer?

[kay2016]

That was me. Accidental Anon. Sorry mods.

[jess]

.

[Tls2016]

I haven't had the problems Tanicis does. Am I allowed to post here? I see a lot of people asking questions.

Most of my loans were already with FedLoans when I was in school. I did a lot of reading on TLS about loans while in law school, so I was prepared. I graduated in May 2014 and started a clerkship after Labor Day. I heard FedLoans is slow at processing IBR/PAYE paperwork, so I submitted my paperwork in July - I consolidated my loans and applied for IBR. You can absolutely enter repayment before your grace period ends in order to get full credit for every month at a PSLF job. I checked some box that I was working in a PSLF eligible place. Everything moved to FedLoans, and they actually processed my application within a week or two. I entered repayment at the end of July 2014. Because I made less than the cap for TY 2013, my monthly payment was $0.

In June of 2015, I recertified for IBR through the website, which takes two seconds. It connects to the IRS website to pull TY 2014 stuff. Again, my salary was under the threshold, and I again squeaked by with $0 monthly payments.

In August of 2015, my clerkship ended. My employer faxed in my PSLF form. A few weeks later, I logged in and saw I has received credit for my clerkship.

In September of 2015, I began working for the federal government.

Right now, I'm applying for LRAP through my school. Funds are paid ever 6 months, so I'd get paid in the beginning of July. Perfect timing because I will no qualify for the $0 monthly payment.

In June 2016, I will recertify my income but switch to REPAYE. I will update the thread with complaints if I have issues because I love complaining.


I think the moral of the story is do everything early and be diligent about making sure stuff was received and process. I've only called FedLoans once to ask a question about how to answer that substantial change in income question on the recertification website. That call was pretty painless.

Did you have all your loans with Fedloan or two different companies? Maybe now all his loans are with Fedloan he won't have any more issues, as they will have all the info?

[A. Nony Mouse]

First off - fuck, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, OP. Especially in that those 4 months won't count towards your 120...that sounds beyond messed up. Also, thank you so much for posting this and making us all aware of what can go wrong regarding these programs.

To you/whomever doesn't mind replying, I too have a few Qs about IBR/PSLF/LRAPs.

1) So obviously most schools' LRAPs utilize IBR/PSLF. They also set different income 'caps' in the amount that you can make without having to make your IBR payment. So it is this cap (and the fine print that goes along with it) that makes these LRAPs 'better' or 'worse' than each other. E.g. School A's cap is 100k before you have to contribute towards your IBR payments, and School B's cap is 80k. All schools are utilizing the same governmental programs, they are just attaching their own program (LRAP) on top of it to help students out, and it's how they add on to these governmental programs that makes distinguishes their LRAPs, correct?

2) Nony Mouse mentioned that you don't actually have to certify your employment for PLSF until the 120 payments are up. But if I'm understanding correctly, this is a completely separate certification from the IBR certification that everyone must do in order to have payments count towards their 120, right? And this goes for every school's LRAP too? Meaning there isn't a school that both utilizes IBR/PSLF and is able to avoid this process - it is completely through FedLoan or whomever your loans are through. I'm aware of HYS and Columbia's LRAPs that don't use IBR/PSLF altogether, and obviously those would avoid this issue.

3) I noticed you said you consolidated your loans somewhat. This might be a really dumb question, but is there any way you could have consolidated your loans completely into one single loan? And also, any way that you would be able to avoid FedLoan completely?

I can't comment on questions 1 or 3 (my school's LRAP is super minimal and I make too much to be covered). I haven't consolidated any loans, but am on FedLoan regardless - I think you're just stuck with whoever ends up buying your loans.

Re: 2, yeah, you have to do two things: you have to prove your income every year (or if you have a major change in income, whichever comes first). First it's to show you're eligible for an income-based plan. You can use taxes or your paystub. Once you're on an income-based plan, you stay on the plan, but you have to recertify your income to recalculate your payments each year (up or down depending on your circumstances). Even if income goes up, though, you'll never pay more than what you'd owe on the standard 10-year plan, and if you hit that point, it still counts as being on IBR/PAYE (unless you actively changed to the standard plan for some reason), so it would still count toward the 120 payments.

When you hit the 120 payments, you have to submit everything to the loan people demonstrating that you've made the 120 payments and that you were in qualifying employment the whole time. Proving you're in qualifying employment is probably one of the easiest parts of this whole process - you just need to fill out a form saying where you worked, for what dates, and get HR to sign confirming that you worked there for that period. You can fill that out and send it in to the loan people at any time - I've done it for both my clerkships but haven't bothered yet for my current job, because it seemed sort of pointless to bother until I have an end date. (That said, no one knows what this process is really going to be like, because no one has had loans forgiven on this plan yet, so it's probably going to be as lovely and efficient as the rest of the experience.)

These things are all both through your loan provider. Again, I don't know what specific school LRAP programs require.

Re: the Navient thing - I don't know what a PSLFP form is, but if it's the form saying you're in a PSLF-qualifying job, as far as I know that doesn't have anything to do with who's handling your loans. I didn't send in anything to say I was in a qualifying job until after I'd been on FedLoan for a couple of years. But if there is some reason your servicer would change, there isn't any reason to send it in until you've paid 120 payments. The employment-certification form is optional and you just need to be able to show where you worked 10 years later.

If you mean just getting on an income-based plan, again, I don't know why that would have anything to do with who processes your loans - I started on IBR on a different servicer from FedLoan and my loans switching had nothing to do with that. (Plus I can't afford non-IBR payments so it's certainly not worth spending more to avoid the lesser of two evils.)

[lapolicia]

This is why I am terrified of sending in my PSLFP form. I currently have all my loans under Navient and after 4 years of dealing with them I've noticed a significant improvement over the last year or two. Plus I've learned how to deal with them after many frustrations over the early years. But the second I send that form in it will switch my loans to FedLoan Servicing and I know it will be a world of pain.

Btw, a tip for those with Navient. The person you speak to on the phone has tremendous power. they can do 90% of all the things they send to the back office right when they're on the phone with you. Ask them to do it, and if they don't just call back he second the back office fails to do anything and get he person on the phone to do it right there and then.

So is there a reason to send in your PSLF yet? I graduate in May, so forgive my ignorance here. But wouldn't it make sense to wait to certify so as not to lose your less terrible servicer?

For someone who is still at the same job they started, it would make no sense to send it in in this situation. But for me specifically, I switched to a different federal agency so it makes sense to send in the form now rather than have to get employment verified by a place that I no longer work at in six years. But I figure it'll be less pain than switching servicers.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I still don't understand why sending in the PSLF form would lead to your servicer being changed, though. Did someone tell you that would happen?

[lapolicia]

I still don't understand why sending in the PSLF form would lead to your servicer being changed, though. Did someone tell you that would happen?

It actually says on the Department of Education's PSLFP website that as soon as you send in the form and they determine your employment to be qualifying, all of your loans will switch over to FedLoan Servicing.

[Tanicius]

I still don't understand why sending in the PSLF form would lead to your servicer being changed, though. Did someone tell you that would happen?

Sending in the PSLF form triggers FedLoan to take everything. But maybe there's an option to switch to a different provider? I don't know. All I know is that I'm going to be recertifying for year 3, January 2017... in September.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Ah, fascinating, sorry, I didn't know that. The forms I submitted in April 2014 don't say that. But I'd been switched to FedLoan before that point, so that's probably why.

[nevdash]

Just began my third year of PSLF-eligible payments. Currently making $65,000 a year while carrying a loan balance of $185,000. It brings about this incredible tightness in my chest every time I even think of PSLF going away in the next eight years. It also brings about a tightness in my chest every time I think about actually applying for forgiveness even if the program is still around. What if I made some small mistake over ten years that made me ineligible? What if they have a problem verifying the government employer that I had for the first two years out of law school? PSLF really isn't the sigh of relief that I thought it would be; I'd almost rather deal with the stress of biglaw and avoid the stress of loans than deal with the stress of loans and avoid the stress of biglaw (I still work 50-60 hour weeks anyway because lol bigfed).

At least I have Great Lakes as my servicer, though. I've never had a problem with them that was even close to the FedLoan horror stories here.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I worry that getting forgiveness is going to be a huge pain in the ass and I'm going to have to jump through hoops and make sure they get everything and don't screw up. I guess I don't worry about being ineligible (if I stay in this job) because I just don't see how some small mistake could make my employment ineligible (the benefit of working for the government; I'd worry more if I were in some kind of private non-profit). I just worry I'm going to have to fight them to figure that out.

As for forgiveness going away/getting capped, well, if that happens, fuck them. They'll have to be satisfied with my little piddling payments in perpetuity because that's what they're getting.

[krads153]

Just began my third year of PSLF-eligible payments. Currently making $65,000 a year while carrying a loan balance of $185,000. It brings about this incredible tightness in my chest every time I even think of PSLF going away in the next eight years. It also brings about a tightness in my chest every time I think about actually applying for forgiveness even if the program is still around. What if I made some small mistake over ten years that made me ineligible? What if they have a problem verifying the government employer that I had for the first two years out of law school? PSLF really isn't the sigh of relief that I thought it would be; I'd almost rather deal with the stress of biglaw and avoid the stress of loans than deal with the stress of loans and avoid the stress of biglaw (I still work 50-60 hour weeks anyway because lol bigfed).

At least I have Great Lakes as my servicer, though. I've never had a problem with them that was even close to the FedLoan horror stories here.

Not on point, but what the... is this normal?

But yes, having loans is super stressful. I started out with big loans - I remember thinking about them constantly. Shit is much harder than it looks as a 0L.

[Anonymous User]

(Posting anonymously because of the loan information contained herein.)

Oooh, goody! I'm right at the point of the day where I'd rather bitch than pay attention to the actual substantive legal work sitting on my desk.

LRAP/PSLF has been anything but a smooth experience; if there's a snag, I have hit it at some point. To be fair, part of the problem is that I am functionally dealing with three giant bureaucracies (my law school's financial aid office, the US DOE, and my loan servicer) at any given moment, each of which has its separate quirks. But I'm amazed at how little guidance I've received and how many ways the process has been screwed up. Below is a nonexhaustive sampler:

‌• I graduated right around the time that my law school decided to switch its LRAP folks over to the PSLF-tethered plan. The school didn't bother to tell us it was planning to do this, though, for around a year. As a result, unless people in my cadre were psychic, none of our payments for the first year or so (made under the "old" LRAP plan, with quite a chunk of change coming out of pocket, depending) "counted" for PSLF, because only "Direct Loan" payments count and few from my initial cadre had loans originated in that program. The net result: the 10-year repayment cycle became 11 and change. The law school promises that it will cover us for 11 years. I have my doubts.

‌• My first eligible job lasted several years, during which my loans were sold something like 5 times, even after consolidation. At the end of the first job, I submitted the employment certification form, and got kicked over to FedLoan. Turns out my loan servicers hadn't bothered to send fully updated paperwork each time my loans were sold, especially if the transition happened right around the time a payment was due. Thus, there were three or four random payments missing in my first record. I must have spent about 15 hours total on the phone with three different servicers working this out, and another 2 with the DOE itself. Moral: as questionable as FedLoan may be, get your stuff kicked over to them ASAP if you can to avoid this kind of issue.

• About payment-plan recertification: unless your income has dropped precipitously and you need to lower your payments NOW NOW NOW, never check the "circumstances have changed" box. Instead, always check the "annual documentation" box. The "circumstances have changed" box isn't for annual recertification--it forces an immediate recalculation and the start of a new 12-month period--but the FedLoan Servicing people often don't know what they're talking about and I've had friends who were advised to tick the wrong option. If you make a mistake and check the changed-circumstances box, you will likely "lose" a month or two of payments until the new amount is calculated, adding a month or two to your repayment period. (You are, by the way, under no obligation legal/moral/otherwise to sound an alert if your income goes up at some point during the year. Since you submit yearly documentation, your payments will eventually "catch up" to your new income anyway.)

• Speaking on the phone to FedLoan Servicing is a rare treat. Each individual person tends to be very helpful, but they will, in the aggregate, give you completely inconsistent advice. Document literally everything they tell you to do, and make sure you get the name of the person you talked to. I would occasionally explain to an agent what a previous agent had told me to do, only to be met with a "wow, that's not how this works at all."

• Almost forgot: my current employer is a not-for-profit whose payroll, etc., is managed by a for-profit co-employment firm. It's the for-profit's Employer ID number that shows up on my tax info, even though I don't work for them. Guess how much fun it's been explaining this year after year, each time I submit my IBR recertification material and my PSLF employment forms? I fully expect it to be challenged when I apply for forgiveness, even though I've gotten grudging permission to keep trudging onward each time.

[zot1]

Just began my third year of PSLF-eligible payments. Currently making $65,000 a year while carrying a loan balance of $185,000. It brings about this incredible tightness in my chest every time I even think of PSLF going away in the next eight years. It also brings about a tightness in my chest every time I think about actually applying for forgiveness even if the program is still around. What if I made some small mistake over ten years that made me ineligible? What if they have a problem verifying the government employer that I had for the first two years out of law school? PSLF really isn't the sigh of relief that I thought it would be; I'd almost rather deal with the stress of biglaw and avoid the stress of loans than deal with the stress of loans and avoid the stress of biglaw (I still work 50-60 hour weeks anyway because lol bigfed).

At least I have Great Lakes as my servicer, though. I've never had a problem with them that was even close to the FedLoan horror stories here.

Not on point, but what the... is this normal?

But yes, having loans is super stressful. I started out with big loans - I remember thinking about them constantly. Shit is much harder than it looks as a 0L.

No. Most people work 40 hours per week in federal government.

[nevdash]

Just began my third year of PSLF-eligible payments. Currently making $65,000 a year while carrying a loan balance of $185,000. It brings about this incredible tightness in my chest every time I even think of PSLF going away in the next eight years. It also brings about a tightness in my chest every time I think about actually applying for forgiveness even if the program is still around. What if I made some small mistake over ten years that made me ineligible? What if they have a problem verifying the government employer that I had for the first two years out of law school? PSLF really isn't the sigh of relief that I thought it would be; I'd almost rather deal with the stress of biglaw and avoid the stress of loans than deal with the stress of loans and avoid the stress of biglaw (I still work 50-60 hour weeks anyway because lol bigfed).

At least I have Great Lakes as my servicer, though. I've never had a problem with them that was even close to the FedLoan horror stories here.

Not on point, but what the... is this normal?

But yes, having loans is super stressful. I started out with big loans - I remember thinking about them constantly. Shit is much harder than it looks as a 0L.

It seems to be normal among litigating attorneys. Non-litigating attorneys seem to have cushy 40 hour gigs, though.

And yeah, as a 0L, it's like, "oh, that debt is basically in Monopoly money if I know it's going to be forgiven." Did you end up going into biglaw and paying yours off?

[Anonymous User]

In February I applied to change from IBR to REPAYE so I could reduce my monthly payment from about 440 to about 280

last night I got emails from FedLoanServicing. So naturally I thought cool, they must have finally processed my REPAYE application.

I open the emails and see that I have been placed on administrative forebearance for April and that I have a $3000 loan payment due on May 19.

Currently on hold to try to figure out WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON

I called them and eventually resolved the situation

apparently when you switch out of IBR to any other repayment plan you are required to make one "standard payment plan" payment. Standard meaning not income based. For me that's about 3k. Apparently there was an option of doing a "reduced payment" instead of the standard payment. I did not select that option because I wanted to keep making as many qualifying payments for PSLF purposes. I assumed that my switch from IBR to REPAYE would be seamless because I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be.

So anyway, they put me on forbearance for April and in May I will make a reduced payment of $5 and then REPAYE starting in June.

The downside is that I am not 2 months away from PSLF than I was expecting to be. Not a huge deal but still annoying.

[Anonymous User]

This is why I am terrified of sending in my PSLFP form. I currently have all my loans under Navient and after 4 years of dealing with them I've noticed a significant improvement over the last year or two. Plus I've learned how to deal with them after many frustrations over the early years. But the second I send that form in it will switch my loans to FedLoan Servicing and I know it will be a world of pain.

Btw, a tip for those with Navient. The person you speak to on the phone has tremendous power. they can do 90% of all the things they send to the back office right when they're on the phone with you. Ask them to do it, and if they don't just call back the second the back office fails to do anything and get the person on the phone to do it right there and then.

I recently switched to IBR but am still with Navient. I think maybe you only get the FedLoan folks if you do IBR right out the gate? I paid navient a solid 35k last year so I figure they'd like to keep me as a customer but who knows.