Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent? Forum

[gp86]

I've already been accepted to a T14, which gives students much better than a 50% shot at Biglaw. I understand that some people do not like the hours, but all high-level fields (management consulting, investment banking, private equity, and Biglaw) require long hours. I just find it hard to believe that every person is miserable and people generally only accept Biglaw offers to pay off debt.

Its not so much the hours its the complete lack of control, the progression and the exit opportunities. I am a lawyer, there are days I love what I do but I also realize there are better ways to make a buck. I have some golden handcuffs and I just want others to avoid them. The below is overly cynical for effect.

- Management consulting - If you mean at MBB [if you don't, then just stop, you not a "management" consultant your just a temp worker who flies coach from Atlanta to Chattanooga], the pay is better the travel could be seen as a positive (saves you money + gets you points/miles you can use upon termination), they have a 401k match and they try to get you a gig when they up-and-out you after 4 years...and those gigs can be sweet compared to the in-house crap a 4th year associate usually lands.

- Investment banking - On a deal they are usually your boss. The client is paying them more, they get the $ or source the deal and they are the ones that get the zeros to line up. So yes, Chip, the 22 year old recent Duke UG, is telling you how the net working capital will be trued up at 3:00am. He hangs up, you get to work (thank god for law school). Further, if Chip survives IB hell he could land buyside (PE or Hedge Fund) and again be your boss (while making multiples of your firm's PPP), or if he just progresses at the IB (while making more then you), he can sh*t on you for the rest of your career when you work together (remember to bring up that 3:00am call when you get to take him to a Rangers game to "develop business"- he will love it -).

- Private equity - This is the financial worlds promised land. Most bulge bracket associates would sacrifice a child (yes, of course their own) for a spot at a mid-market shop. You call the shots, you raise the money, you collect the ungodly management fees. The upside is yours. Also, you get to drag PE lawyers from KE and Simpson around like well trained yellow labs (speaking of labs, remember to get 1 yellow and 1 brown for your winter house in Aspen - have them bark when doing Christmas day calls with your legal team who are sitting in a Manhattan conference room drafting and crying).

Don't Biglaw M&A and PE attorneys have exit options on the business side of M&A and PE? I've seen various Linkedin profiles of T14-->Biglaw (usually M&A)-->IBD (associate level)-->Private equity
Is that not a common career trajectory?

No, they don't, no, you haven't, and no, it's not.

[Anonymous User]

Don't Biglaw M&A and PE attorneys have exit options on the business side of M&A and PE? I've seen various Linkedin profiles of T14-->Biglaw (usually M&A)-->IBD (associate level)-->Private equity
Is that not a common career trajectory?

I can't tell if your messing with me. That is a rare move. A 2nd year at a v10 may do it but they usually have a background in finance (summer in college or ug degree) and it is not easy. I know T14 JD-MBAs who had trouble switching after starting in law (they made it but in an industry group).

The IBD to PE is also a tough move at the associate level. From what I have seen, most PE like to take IB analysts and then promote from within (or poach from other PE).

T14-->Biglaw-->IBD -->PE is very hard and rare. Even HYS-->v5-->IBD -->PE would be hard.

[Anonymous User]

I find these posts so weird to read. I am a biglaw senior associate and I like my job, and most of the people I work with also like their jobs and are normal and interesting people. Firm culture does vary a bit, and the first firm I worked in was pretty awful and I hated my first year. My second year was a bit better, and then I moved firms and since then have worked hard but generally really enjoyed it, the work is interesting, varied, the pay is obviously good, and if I have to work, I can't imagine what else I'd do that would be a better combination of those things. So to the OP, sorry you're hating it and I hope it gets better for you as it did for me. If not, consider moving firms as they are not all the same.

[v5junior]

I find these posts so weird to read. I am a biglaw senior associate and I like my job, and most of the people I work with also like their jobs and are normal and interesting people. Firm culture does vary a bit, and the first firm I worked in was pretty awful and I hated my first year. My second year was a bit better, and then I moved firms and since then have worked hard but generally really enjoyed it, the work is interesting, varied, the pay is obviously good, and if I have to work, I can't imagine what else I'd do that would be a better combination of those things. So to the OP, sorry you're hating it and I hope it gets better for you as it did for me. If not, consider moving firms as they are not all the same.

Practice group?

[Anonymous User]

I've already been accepted to a T14, which gives students much better than a 50% shot at Biglaw. I understand that some people do not like the hours, but all high-level fields (management consulting, investment banking, private equity, and Biglaw) require long hours. I just find it hard to believe that every person is miserable and people generally only accept Biglaw offers to pay off debt.

Its not so much the hours its the complete lack of control, the progression and the exit opportunities. I am a lawyer, there are days I love what I do but I also realize there are better ways to make a buck. I have some golden handcuffs and I just want others to avoid them. The below is overly cynical for effect.

- Management consulting - If you mean at MBB [if you don't, then just stop, you not a "management" consultant your just a temp worker who flies coach from Atlanta to Chattanooga], the pay is better the travel could be seen as a positive (saves you money + gets you points/miles you can use upon termination), they have a 401k match and they try to get you a gig when they up-and-out you after 4 years...and those gigs can be sweet compared to the in-house crap a 4th year associate usually lands.

- Investment banking - On a deal they are usually your boss. The client is paying them more, they get the $ or source the deal and they are the ones that get the zeros to line up. So yes, Chip, the 22 year old recent Duke UG, is telling you how the net working capital will be trued up at 3:00am. He hangs up, you get to work (thank god for law school). Further, if Chip survives IB hell he could land buyside (PE or Hedge Fund) and again be your boss (while making multiples of your firm's PPP), or if he just progresses at the IB (while making more then you), he can sh*t on you for the rest of your career when you work together (remember to bring up that 3:00am call when you get to take him to a Rangers game to "develop business"- he will love it -).

- Private equity - This is the financial worlds promised land. Most bulge bracket associates would sacrifice a child (yes, of course their own) for a spot at a mid-market shop. You call the shots, you raise the money, you collect the ungodly management fees. The upside is yours. Also, you get to drag PE lawyers from KE and Simpson around like well trained yellow labs (speaking of labs, remember to get 1 yellow and 1 brown for your winter house in Aspen - have them bark when doing Christmas day calls with your legal team who are sitting in a Manhattan conference room drafting and crying).

Don't Biglaw M&A and PE attorneys have exit options on the business side of M&A and PE? I've seen various Linkedin profiles of T14-->Biglaw (usually M&A)-->IBD (associate level)-->Private equity
Is that not a common career trajectory?

mod edit: user warned for posting in Legal Employment as a 0L

My brother is an associate at an I-bank. He says he and his buddies just crack up whenever they're recruiting and they come across a lawyer's resume (in case Biglaw1990 is confused, that is because they generally hate working with/alongside lawyers). The few lawyers that he knows have made the switch basically all came from V3, and worked in finance before law school

[juzam_djinn]

I made it 2 years. Biglaw is essentially the following, at least in my opinion.

1. Young guys are either 1. Weird 2. Owe some school 150K, 3. Completely oblivious to creativity and have no social skills/ability to lead.

2. Mid levels are 1. Married with kids and are stuck 2. Weird AF (I have a buddy who is young/mid 30s who is now completely gray, has gained 30 pounds in last 2 some years and is frequently pulling all nighters and has 0 social life. 3. Guys who love grind (there are a few, they are usually the kids rocking the Jos. Bank suit, square toe shoes and think Tag Huer is a strong watch)

3. Junior Partners are 1. Married with 2+ kids 2. Have at least one kid who is a complete fuck up 3. Badly balding or completely bald 4. Majority, not all, terribly overweight. 4. Usually have a wife who stays at home or has some low income job and/or has a way too expensive house that he owes a shit ton of debt on.

4. Senior Partners are 1. A few divorces deep 2 have a few kids that go to some obscure private school out west or in the northeast 3. Fat and bald 4. Completely no social life and most are weird AF.

That is what it is, anyone who tells you differently is either delusional or cannot handle the truth or is a square toe shoe wearing guy.

Typos due to iPhone.

Aren't there regular people who just want to earn a nice salary? I'm a 0L, but I find it hard to believe that there are only weird people with no social lives in Biglaw.

My goodness, this post screams square toe shoe guy. There are plenty of ways that people can secure a strong income. The sad thing about law school/practice is that people have seen too many movies, watched Suits, or have had there old grandfather who was an industrial worker tell them about how great lawyers are/how easy the job is/how much cash they make. It is not true. I know pharmaceutical salesman in there mid 20's who make more than junior partners.

Of course, and I mean this with all the respect in the world, odds are you will not make it to the t14, and if you do you should be wise and take a full ride at a T1. And if you do make it to the t14, you are at best a coin flip of landing biglaw.

must be cool to know literally the top .01% of pharmaceutical reps

[ballouttacontrol]

I made it 2 years. Biglaw is essentially the following, at least in my opinion.

1. Young guys are either 1. Weird 2. Owe some school 150K, 3. Completely oblivious to creativity and have no social skills/ability to lead.

2. Mid levels are 1. Married with kids and are stuck 2. Weird AF (I have a buddy who is young/mid 30s who is now completely gray, has gained 30 pounds in last 2 some years and is frequently pulling all nighters and has 0 social life. 3. Guys who love grind (there are a few, they are usually the kids rocking the Jos. Bank suit, square toe shoes and think Tag Huer is a strong watch)

3. Junior Partners are 1. Married with 2+ kids 2. Have at least one kid who is a complete fuck up 3. Badly balding or completely bald 4. Majority, not all, terribly overweight. 4. Usually have a wife who stays at home or has some low income job and/or has a way too expensive house that he owes a shit ton of debt on.

4. Senior Partners are 1. A few divorces deep 2 have a few kids that go to some obscure private school out west or in the northeast 3. Fat and bald 4. Completely no social life and most are weird AF.

That is what it is, anyone who tells you differently is either delusional or cannot handle the truth or is a square toe shoe wearing guy.

Typos due to iPhone.

Aren't there regular people who just want to earn a nice salary? I'm a 0L, but I find it hard to believe that there are only weird people with no social lives in Biglaw.

My goodness, this post screams square toe shoe guy. There are plenty of ways that people can secure a strong income. The sad thing about law school/practice is that people have seen too many movies, watched Suits, or have had there old grandfather who was an industrial worker tell them about how great lawyers are/how easy the job is/how much cash they make. It is not true. I know pharmaceutical salesman in there mid 20's who make more than junior partners.

Of course, and I mean this with all the respect in the world, odds are you will not make it to the t14, and if you do you should be wise and take a full ride at a T1. And if you do make it to the t14, you are at best a coin flip of landing biglaw.

must be cool to know literally the top .01% of pharmaceutical reps

I'm guessing he meant b2b pharma marketing. Assuming a Jr partner makes 250k or so, that is def doable

But the vast majority of the attorneys I've met, particularly the ones who go to T14 law schools, would be HORRIBLE at sales

[juzam_djinn]

ya, i agree biglawyers aren't really known for charisma

how are biglaw junior partners making only 250k though? we're talking "big" law right? midlaw or smaller I would agree w/ 250k, but biglaw junior partners are definitely making at least what senior associates make all-in, which should put them above 400k (and in cases of top firms, likely more)

[Lacepiece23]

ya, i agree biglawyers aren't really known for charisma

how are biglaw junior partners making only 250k though? we're talking "big" law right? midlaw or smaller I would agree w/ 250k, but biglaw junior partners are definitely making at least what senior associates make all-in, which should put them above 400k (and in cases of top firms, likely more)

At most firms its not uncommon to make more your last few years as a senior associate than as junior partner. That 250k number sounds right for my secondary market. I would venture to say that NYC and other big markets pay substantially more.

[juzam_djinn]

ya, i agree biglawyers aren't really known for charisma

how are biglaw junior partners making only 250k though? we're talking "big" law right? midlaw or smaller I would agree w/ 250k, but biglaw junior partners are definitely making at least what senior associates make all-in, which should put them above 400k (and in cases of top firms, likely more)

At most firms its not uncommon to make more your last few years as a senior associate than as junior partner. That 250k number sounds right for my secondary market. I would venture to say that NYC and other big markets pay substantially more.

ah ya sorry i was only thinking about major markets

[Biglaw1990]

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[Biglaw1990]

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[Anonymous User]

I'm pretty junior and I somewhat agree with the OP, I go through phases of being bored and indifferent, but I also would caution against the perspective that everyone who doesn't despise biglaw is a weirdo. I went to a T14 and thought about 75% of people there were too weird for general population. At my previous firm this was also true. At my current big office V100 firm this isn't true.

Despite bad weeks, I mostly like my work and certainly am glad I went to law school. Despite all the "you could make so much money doing X" stuff on these forums, which may be true if you did great at a great UG and/or have connections and/or are a great sales person and are okay with sales, not a single one of my friends from UG are anywhere near the place professionally or financially that I am.

Not advocating everyone should go to law school though. There's other forums and threads to discuss that though.

[krads153]

I'm pretty junior and I somewhat agree with the OP, I go through phases of being bored and indifferent, but I also would caution against the perspective that everyone who doesn't despise biglaw is a weirdo. I went to a T14 and thought about 75% of people there were too weird for general population. At my previous firm this was also true. At my current big office V100 firm this isn't true.

Despite bad weeks, I mostly like my work and certainly am glad I went to law school. Despite all the "you could make so much money doing X" stuff on these forums, which may be true if you did great at a great UG and/or have connections and/or are a great sales person and are okay with sales, not a single one of my friends from UG are anywhere near the place professionally or financially that I am.

Not advocating everyone should go to law school though. There's other forums and threads to discuss that though.

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

[zot1]

Close friends from UG:

Four are in law school and another is finally going next year.

One is a teacher.

One is a school counselor.

Two work in labs, one as a supervisor.

One works in marketing.

One married a somewhat well-known actor.

One flips houses.

One has been working for finance company and was just sent to India.

I'm happy and all, but the one who married the actor is doing better than all of us combined. I definitely didn't work my youth wisely

[krads153]

^ How did she meet the actor?

[zot1]

^ How did she meet the actor?

That's what happens when you live in L.A....

[Anonymous User]

I've already been accepted to a T14, which gives students much better than a 50% shot at Biglaw. I understand that some people do not like the hours, but all high-level fields (management consulting, investment banking, private equity, and Biglaw) require long hours. I just find it hard to believe that every person is miserable and people generally only accept Biglaw offers to pay off debt.

Its not so much the hours its the complete lack of control, the progression and the exit opportunities. I am a lawyer, there are days I love what I do but I also realize there are better ways to make a buck. I have some golden handcuffs and I just want others to avoid them. The below is overly cynical for effect.

- Management consulting - If you mean at MBB [if you don't, then just stop, you not a "management" consultant your just a temp worker who flies coach from Atlanta to Chattanooga], the pay is better the travel could be seen as a positive (saves you money + gets you points/miles you can use upon termination), they have a 401k match and they try to get you a gig when they up-and-out you after 4 years...and those gigs can be sweet compared to the in-house crap a 4th year associate usually lands.

- Investment banking - On a deal they are usually your boss. The client is paying them more, they get the $ or source the deal and they are the ones that get the zeros to line up. So yes, Chip, the 22 year old recent Duke UG, is telling you how the net working capital will be trued up at 3:00am. He hangs up, you get to work (thank god for law school). Further, if Chip survives IB hell he could land buyside (PE or Hedge Fund) and again be your boss (while making multiples of your firm's PPP), or if he just progresses at the IB (while making more then you), he can sh*t on you for the rest of your career when you work together (remember to bring up that 3:00am call when you get to take him to a Rangers game to "develop business"- he will love it -).

- Private equity - This is the financial worlds promised land. Most bulge bracket associates would sacrifice a child (yes, of course their own) for a spot at a mid-market shop. You call the shots, you raise the money, you collect the ungodly management fees. The upside is yours. Also, you get to drag PE lawyers from KE and Simpson around like well trained yellow labs (speaking of labs, remember to get 1 yellow and 1 brown for your winter house in Aspen - have them bark when doing Christmas day calls with your legal team who are sitting in a Manhattan conference room drafting and crying).

I don't understand the part about investment banking. Your "boss" is the client, and the bankers are advisers just like the law firm. I've never been told what to do by a banker. It's always collaborative.

I've also never seen an M&A partner take a banker to an event to develop business. They take out people from PE firms and large cap companies that do a lot of deals (i.e, pharma) because they're the actual clients.

I don't mean to call this person out. I've just never seen the relationship between bankers and lawyers play out like the above and am wondering if others have.

[sayan]

Don't Biglaw M&A and PE attorneys have exit options on the business side of M&A and PE? I've seen various Linkedin profiles of T14-->Biglaw (usually M&A)-->IBD (associate level)-->Private equity
Is that not a common career trajectory?

This is so laughably naive and wrong. I work at KE as a midlevel and friends work at STB. I don't know anyone (reviewing LinkedIn profiles, reading departure memos, and looking up notable alums) who has ever made the transition to the business side of PE from law directly, except very rarely in a business development role after 4-5 years in fund formation (which is hell on earth at either firm). I have heard legends of a few who go from law to IBD to PE in a non-investment role, but they are unicorns. Nobody plays basketball with the hopes of becoming LeBron, and nobody should think they will become a PE or M&A lawyer generally and obtain a business role in PE.

The PE ship sailed while you were in law school. You will, literally, have a 0.0001% chance of ever scoring an investment role at a PE firm -- the same odds as being struck by lightning while walking through the streets of New York.

Legal and compliance (i.e., back office) roles are a different story. Plenty of folks go from pushing papers at law firms to pushing papers in back office for their clients while earning less and working (a few) less hours. Have fun with that.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

I'm pretty junior and I somewhat agree with the OP, I go through phases of being bored and indifferent, but I also would caution against the perspective that everyone who doesn't despise biglaw is a weirdo. I went to a T14 and thought about 75% of people there were too weird for general population. At my previous firm this was also true. At my current big office V100 firm this isn't true.

Despite bad weeks, I mostly like my work and certainly am glad I went to law school. Despite all the "you could make so much money doing X" stuff on these forums, which may be true if you did great at a great UG and/or have connections and/or are a great sales person and are okay with sales, not a single one of my friends from UG are anywhere near the place professionally or financially that I am.

Not advocating everyone should go to law school though. There's other forums and threads to discuss that though.

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

The funny thing is I wasn't talking about your friends. I was talking about mine. But, you know, that's cool. Also glad to hear to fit into the went to a good UG category I described.

People need to adjust their expectations. This poster has friends with awesome dream jobs that aren't hard at all and provide great financial stability and earning power. That's great. That's not typical. It can't be. We don't live in Lake Wobegon. For lots of people biglaw is a pretty good outcome. Not for this guy and not for everyone.

[gander14]

.

[unlicensedpotato]

I'm pretty junior and I somewhat agree with the OP, I go through phases of being bored and indifferent, but I also would caution against the perspective that everyone who doesn't despise biglaw is a weirdo. I went to a T14 and thought about 75% of people there were too weird for general population. At my previous firm this was also true. At my current big office V100 firm this isn't true.

Despite bad weeks, I mostly like my work and certainly am glad I went to law school. Despite all the "you could make so much money doing X" stuff on these forums, which may be true if you did great at a great UG and/or have connections and/or are a great sales person and are okay with sales, not a single one of my friends from UG are anywhere near the place professionally or financially that I am.

Not advocating everyone should go to law school though. There's other forums and threads to discuss that though.

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

You also took what was essentially a three year vacation for law school. It makes sense that this would set you back financially. Plus I would just never want to work as an engineer. I know a lot of hard science engineers who had good jobs but went back to law school to become IP attorneys because they were bored, essentially.

[zot1]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm happy with my situation, this is probably what surprised me the most. I thought law would feel more like a career--something you become and whatnot. When I'm off the clock, I don't even think about law unless someone happens to bring it up.

[bear patrol]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

This is how I feel too. Just trying to pay off my loans quickly, save some money, and move on.

[KM2016]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).