What is Big Law Bankruptcy Practice like? Forum

[lawschoolftw]

OP here. Does anyone have anything positive to say about bankruptcy practice? It seemed like such a cool and different practice, so I'm surprised that the responses have been universally negative

I am a senior bankruptcy guy, have worked as a bankruptcy guy from day 1, and absolutely love it. But I did two things to protect myself, which I think are essential:

- first, I went to a place with a strong finance practice, and I worked out a deal with them where I am allowed to do some finance work when the economy is up, which smooths out the natural up-and-down work flow of pure bankruptcy work. It also means I get to work with some healthy clients, and maintain relationships with PE clients who generate both distressed work and normal portfolio company finance work.

- second, I am dominantly transactional. I do some litigation - real litigation too, like depos and such - but I'd say its only like 20% of my workflow. One of the advantages to that is that it gives you bankruptcy work to do in times where there aren't many new filings - the litigation tail from a chapter 11 can extend years after the debtor has emerged from bankruptcy. It also is a nice change of pace - its so different from deal work. But you don't end up in the trap of doing pure lit, which is a bit like doing normal lit but with more fire drills.

For me, I basically need to do bankruptcy to like my job. It means I am never doing the same deal twice, since I am bouncing between restructuring deal work, finance work, lit work . . . all over the place. I'd blow my brains out with boredom if I was just churning out, say secured credit facilities over and over and over and over again. Not for me. Instead, just to use the last week as an example - I appeared before a judge at a hearing, reached a settlement to an objection from a party trying to get in the way of a distressed M&A deal I've been working on, negotiated an intercreditor for a distressed secured credit facility, gave a presentation to some partners about a really interesting legal issue that's coming up in the recent oil and gas cases, etc. Now that is what a week of work should be. You actually get to be a real lawyer, IMO.

Lol. How great for you that you get to be a "real lawyer." You know lots of corporate people do reorg work too and negotiate all those documents and settlements.
You're just another cog in the biglaw finance machine. Let's not get crazy.

Insulting the handful of senior attorneys nice enough to take time out of their day to reply definitely seems productive.

As an aside, I do a lot of Chapter 11 work in a mid-law setting and as a junior most of my practice is litigation focused, but the partners I work for have a similar practice to what the senior attorney anon described (i.e., a solid mix of litigation and transaction work). In that regard, the most positive thing about this practice (and a real big one, IMO) is that there is a lot more variety to your practice than a pure lit or a pure transnational attorney deals with. But, the downsides of the fire drills and little work in a "good" economy are likewise credited.

[Tls2016]

It's productive to 0Ls he's selling that his practice is closer to being a" real lawyer"' than corporate because he does a lot of corporate work. This didn't make sense.

I don't normally post negative comments but I thought his dismissal of corporate practice as not real law merited a response.

Sorry if you disagree.

[Anonymous User]

It's productive to 0Ls he's selling that his practice is closer to being a" real lawyer"' than corporate because he does a lot of corporate work. This didn't make sense.

I don't normally post negative comments but I thought his dismissal of corporate practice as not real law merited a response.

Sorry if you disagree.

I don't think its real law if you never set foot in a courtroom. There is something different about arguing in front of a judge. It forces you to really crystallize your arguments beforehand, since the judge's attention span is so limited, and then you need to be able to think on your feet.

There are plenty of corporate guys who would make great bankruptcy guys, but there are also lots of corporate guys whose best skill is the ability to produce perfect, errorless work, over and over. That skill set is MUCH less valuable in bankruptcy than in, say, securities practice. As someone who is merely good, but not great, at typo-avoidance, it is nice to find a practice that doesn't value that uber alles.

[peter2009]

I'm a junior at a big law firm practicing in bankruptcy. For us, work is slow right now. Perhaps it will pick up this year, but that's uncertain.

I think bankruptcy is one of the tougher practice groups. Constant fire drills and your schedule is extremely unpredictable. However, I have received a lot of substantive experience. In the first few months of when I started I was arguing motions in court. Most of my peers at other firms seem to be getting substantive experience early on. This practice group is all hands on deck.

There is no way you are arguing motions in court as a junior at a big law firm. Maybe you have done one or two at most. Or you have presented BS Joint Admin motions for debtor cases.

[peter2009]

OP here. Does anyone have anything positive to say about bankruptcy practice? It seemed like such a cool and different practice, so I'm surprised that the responses have been universally negative

I am a senior bankruptcy guy, have worked as a bankruptcy guy from day 1, and absolutely love it. But I did two things to protect myself, which I think are essential:

- first, I went to a place with a strong finance practice, and I worked out a deal with them where I am allowed to do some finance work when the economy is up, which smooths out the natural up-and-down work flow of pure bankruptcy work. It also means I get to work with some healthy clients, and maintain relationships with PE clients who generate both distressed work and normal portfolio company finance work.

- second, I am dominantly transactional. I do some litigation - real litigation too, like depos and such - but I'd say its only like 20% of my workflow. One of the advantages to that is that it gives you bankruptcy work to do in times where there aren't many new filings - the litigation tail from a chapter 11 can extend years after the debtor has emerged from bankruptcy. It also is a nice change of pace - its so different from deal work. But you don't end up in the trap of doing pure lit, which is a bit like doing normal lit but with more fire drills.

For me, I basically need to do bankruptcy to like my job. It means I am never doing the same deal twice, since I am bouncing between restructuring deal work, finance work, lit work . . . all over the place. I'd blow my brains out with boredom if I was just churning out, say secured credit facilities over and over and over and over again. Not for me. Instead, just to use the last week as an example - I appeared before a judge at a hearing, reached a settlement to an objection from a party trying to get in the way of a distressed M&A deal I've been working on, negotiated an intercreditor for a distressed secured credit facility, gave a presentation to some partners about a really interesting legal issue that's coming up in the recent oil and gas cases, etc. Now that is what a week of work should be. You actually get to be a real lawyer, IMO.

As a mid-level bankruptcy associate I agree with this post. Bankruptcy is a great practice area for me because I am always doing something different. Litigation one week and then working on a DIP financing the next. Working as Debtor's counsel is also very interesting because there are so many diverse parties involved that you have to bring together.

[Anonymous User]

OP - I have a friend of a friend who is at Weil. Just as a heads up, the bankruptcy group typically takes only 1 summer associate a year (business is not booming as much for that group). So that's great that your interested, but don't get your hopes up because there is a chance it won't happen. Which might be a good thing, exit ops for debtor side BK lawyers are a tricky thing

You mean they only hire 1 person in NYC for bankruptcy?
I would check with people at the firm. That doesn't sound right to me.

Just an FYI, Weil was doing 3L hiring for the BFR group this past fall. I wouldn't worry about not being able to join the group if that's what you want to do.

[Anonymous User]

anyone have info on which side of hte spectrum kirkland bankruptcy practice falls on? and what is it like to work in their practice? Also, anybody know of exit ops coming from that practice?

[Anonymous User]

anyone have info on which side of hte spectrum kirkland bankruptcy practice falls on? and what is it like to work in their practice? Also, anybody know of exit ops coming from that practice?

Biggest and most successful bankruptcy practice in the country. Dominates the Debtor-side market. Churns through junior lawyers like a dairymaid goes through cream. If you can survive for 6 years or so, the exit options are as good as you get in the restructuring business. 2-3 years and you're just another guy.

[generaltoast]

Can anyone speak from experience working on the creditor/bondholder side?

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak from experience working on the creditor/bondholder side?

SDNY/DE Clerk here. It is hard to generalize...it depends on what type of creditor side work you are doing and what firm you are at.

Committee work is generally the "mirror" of debtor work, but again this will depend largely on the firm you are at. Doing committee work at an Akin/Kramer will be a lot different than doing committee work at a Lowenstein/Kilpatrick. At Akin you are more likely to being going to war with the debtors and trying to take over the case...while a case at Lowenstein generally will have a different strategy/approach to a case.

Bondholder work, again, can vary on based on firms and position. If you are representing the fulcrum/out of the money debt you may be trying to take over the case or find anyway to maximize recovery. Other senior debt may be the DIP lender and this would probably be closer to debtor work since you are essentially running the case and its your plan that is going through. Also on the creditor side, there is indenture trustee work, secured lender, buyers, equity committee, etc...all of which would bring different experiences.

So the short answer to your question is it depends.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak from experience working on the creditor/bondholder side?

SDNY/DE Clerk here. It is hard to generalize...it depends on what type of creditor side work you are doing and what firm you are at.

Committee work is generally the "mirror" of debtor work, but again this will depend largely on the firm you are at. Doing committee work at an Akin/Kramer will be a lot different than doing committee work at a Lowenstein/Kilpatrick. At Akin you are more likely to being going to war with the debtors and trying to take over the case...while a case at Lowenstein generally will have a different strategy/approach to a case.

Bondholder work, again, can vary on based on firms and position. If you are representing the fulcrum/out of the money debt you may be trying to take over the case or find anyway to maximize recovery. Other senior debt may be the DIP lender and this would probably be closer to debtor work since you are essentially running the case and its your plan that is going through. Also on the creditor side, there is indenture trustee work, secured lender, buyers, equity committee, etc...all of which would bring different experiences.

So the short answer to your question is it depends.

Informative, thanks!

[Anonymous User]

anyone have info on which side of hte spectrum kirkland bankruptcy practice falls on? and what is it like to work in their practice? Also, anybody know of exit ops coming from that practice?

Biggest and most successful bankruptcy practice in the country. Dominates the Debtor-side market. Churns through junior lawyers like a dairymaid goes through cream. If you can survive for 6 years or so, the exit options are as good as you get in the restructuring business. 2-3 years and you're just another guy.

Exactly this. Kirkland and Weil are both intense, debtor-side shops. Both churn through their associates and teach through absolute fire and brimstone. You will go months without a life, and then suddenly have a 21 day objection period where you get to relax. If you are comfortable with spontaneity, true all-nighters relatively frequently (1 a week, sometimes a whole week), then you'll survive. Get a thick skin fast. Bankruptcy / Restructuring lawyers are notoriously some of the crassest, no holds bar guys around (and yes, predominantly male partners - one of the few true Boys Clubs left in law). But, it is a ton of fun, you are a part of a team, and you go through hell and back together so you're tight. Make sure you make yourself known as someone reliable, who works as hard and as long as necessary, has a good sense of humor, and knows your place (hierarchy is pretty big in these groups). Oh and brush up on oil and gas economics (as they stand now) a huge percentage of the Bankruptcy dockets are O&G companies that can't withstand the market.

[Anonymous User]

anyone have info on which side of hte spectrum kirkland bankruptcy practice falls on? and what is it like to work in their practice? Also, anybody know of exit ops coming from that practice?

Biggest and most successful bankruptcy practice in the country. Dominates the Debtor-side market. Churns through junior lawyers like a dairymaid goes through cream. If you can survive for 6 years or so, the exit options are as good as you get in the restructuring business. 2-3 years and you're just another guy.

Exactly this. Kirkland and Weil are both intense, debtor-side shops. Both churn through their associates and teach through absolute fire and brimstone. You will go months without a life, and then suddenly have a 21 day objection period where you get to relax. If you are comfortable with spontaneity, true all-nighters relatively frequently (1 a week, sometimes a whole week), then you'll survive. Get a thick skin fast. Bankruptcy / Restructuring lawyers are notoriously some of the crassest, no holds bar guys around (and yes, predominantly male partners - one of the few true Boys Clubs left in law). But, it is a ton of fun, you are a part of a team, and you go through hell and back together so you're tight. Make sure you make yourself known as someone reliable, who works as hard and as long as necessary, has a good sense of humor, and knows your place (hierarchy is pretty big in these groups). Oh and brush up on oil and gas economics (as they stand now) a huge percentage of the Bankruptcy dockets are O&G companies that can't withstand the market.

Would exit ops from those firms include going to mid-law firms? or is big law bankruptcy only really portable to other big law and distressed funds firms?

[Anonymous User]

anyone have info on which side of hte spectrum kirkland bankruptcy practice falls on? and what is it like to work in their practice? Also, anybody know of exit ops coming from that practice?

Biggest and most successful bankruptcy practice in the country. Dominates the Debtor-side market. Churns through junior lawyers like a dairymaid goes through cream. If you can survive for 6 years or so, the exit options are as good as you get in the restructuring business. 2-3 years and you're just another guy.

Exactly this. Kirkland and Weil are both intense, debtor-side shops. Both churn through their associates and teach through absolute fire and brimstone. You will go months without a life, and then suddenly have a 21 day objection period where you get to relax. If you are comfortable with spontaneity, true all-nighters relatively frequently (1 a week, sometimes a whole week), then you'll survive. Get a thick skin fast. Bankruptcy / Restructuring lawyers are notoriously some of the crassest, no holds bar guys around (and yes, predominantly male partners - one of the few true Boys Clubs left in law). But, it is a ton of fun, you are a part of a team, and you go through hell and back together so you're tight. Make sure you make yourself known as someone reliable, who works as hard and as long as necessary, has a good sense of humor, and knows your place (hierarchy is pretty big in these groups). Oh and brush up on oil and gas economics (as they stand now) a huge percentage of the Bankruptcy dockets are O&G companies that can't withstand the market.

All of this. I've worked with a lot of the heavy hitter partners in the firms mentioned here. It can be pretty rough but pretty exhilarating.

[Anonymous User]

I am considering lateraling to Kirkland as my firm has been a bit slow in our BK practice. How bad is the churn and burn on associates? I am still fairly junior. Trying to gauge my options.

[Anonymous User]

I am considering lateraling to Kirkland as my firm has been a bit slow in our BK practice. How bad is the churn and burn on associates? I am still fairly junior. Trying to gauge my options.

I know a junior associate there that has been averaging about 280 billable hours the past few months. With, the way oil & gas is looking and the amount of cases they are running lead debtor's counsel, it does not look like that will change any time soon.

Obviously it is a great firm and you would be working on all of the biggest and most complex cases, but you should really explore all of your options...a lot of top bankruptcy groups are looking to hire (in multiple markets, i.e. NY/CHI/TEX/DE).

[Anonymous User]

I know a junior associate there that has been averaging about 280 billable hours the past few months. With, the way oil & gas is looking and the amount of cases they are running lead debtor's counsel, it does not look like that will change any time soon.

That seems insane. is Bankruptcy an area where you can sit and work for 10 hours and bill 10 hours? or is it more inefficient than that?

Also, just a bump to question about specific exit options especially going to law firms in more secondary/tertiary markets like detroit, atlanta, cleveland

[Rahviveh]

I know a junior associate there that has been averaging about 280 billable hours the past few months. With, the way oil & gas is looking and the amount of cases they are running lead debtor's counsel, it does not look like that will change any time soon.

That seems insane. is Bankruptcy an area where you can sit and work for 10 hours and bill 10 hours? or is it more inefficient than that?

Also, just a bump to question about specific exit options especially going to law firms in more secondary/tertiary markets like detroit, atlanta, cleveland

Did you not read the posts above? It's exhilarating and a ton of fun. The thought of doing all nighters for crazy partners arouses me

[umichman]

The above posts do not answer hte question

[Anonymous User]

I am considering lateraling to Kirkland as my firm has been a bit slow in our BK practice. How bad is the churn and burn on associates? I am still fairly junior. Trying to gauge my options.

I know a junior associate there that has been averaging about 280 billable hours the past few months. With, the way oil & gas is looking and the amount of cases they are running lead debtor's counsel, it does not look like that will change any time soon.

Obviously it is a great firm and you would be working on all of the biggest and most complex cases, but you should really explore all of your options...a lot of top bankruptcy groups are looking to hire (in multiple markets, i.e. NY/CHI/TEX/DE).

Kirkland is one of the best (PPP, prestige, if you stay), and by far the absolute worst for associates (horrendous hours, no life, shitty angry exhausted humans, lock step salary with every other firm so why do it when you could do it elsewhere). Very few BK practices are slow right now, if they are they aren't particularly good / in with the right industries. If you want to do BK go to someone who is doing it, but it doesn't have to be Kirkland.

[Anonymous User]

Hello,
So after accepting a position as a Summer Associate at Weil Gotshal last fall, I decided to sign up for Corporate Bankruptcy for this spring semester since I know that Weil is one of the best bankruptcy firms in the country. Surprisingly, I have really enjoyed the class so far and am seriously considering it as a potential career path.

However, I do not know much about what actual bankruptcy practice is like, especially in the big law setting. It seems to me to be somewhat of a hybrid practice between litigation and transaction. Can you guys with knowledge of practice illuminate me? Especially as a young first year associate what life and practice is like, and similarly what life and practice would be like later on moving up the ladder.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

As a junior, you will predominantly handle drafting first day motions, finding precedent for more complicated motions for third years, researching any issue the partner is trying to figure out behind the scenes prior to / during the actual bankruptcy proceedings, and doing a lot of what appears to be administrative / secretarial work. It is not all that different from any other practice as a first year, but BK tends to move a lot faster so you will see an entire case life cycle throughout about eight months which makes you more senior and experienced fast. Litigators may spend years on a single case, which means 4th years don't know how to close out a case and first years may never see the beginning. BK you'll learn the whole thing and then learn to be surprised by how many ways the same steps can change.

FYI - If you do not plan to be in a law firm for ever, this is a difficult transition path because there just aren't real life jobs outside of bankruptcy law that requires extensive knowledge of bankruptcy law, unless you plan to transition to one of the bankruptcy services professionals (financial advisors, tax, even claims agents - those are all sweet in house gigs, but again totally dependent on the bankruptcy market, so if its a slow time, its slow for all).

It is fun, but it is limiting.

[RaceJudicata]

Not trying to sound ignorant or sarcastic... but what specifically about BK work makes it so "exhilarating"? Is it just the pace? Or is there something tangible about the work that makes it so exhilarating?

[Anonymous User]

I am considering lateraling to Kirkland as my firm has been a bit slow in our BK practice. How bad is the churn and burn on associates? I am still fairly junior. Trying to gauge my options.

Churn-heavy. They use Darwinian selection on the juniors, and their bankruptcy practice (like all debtor-side practices) is highly-levered. It's the nature of the work. You can always join a firm that does mainly committee work if you want job security and boredom.

[Anonymous User]

Not trying to sound ignorant or sarcastic... but what specifically about BK work makes it so "exhilarating"? Is it just the pace? Or is there something tangible about the work that makes it so exhilarating?

It's pretty much the only field in transactional law where the advisors, particularly debtor-side advisors, are quasi-principals. I.e., deal making is done by the financial advisors and restructuring advisors and lawyers hand-in-hand. Rarely does a debtor have the institutional knowledge to develop deals in chapter 11, and debtors are often hurting for staffing and basically out-sourcing jobs that would normally be internal (corp dev, legal, etc.) to its advisors. Similarly for committee work, there really isn't a client - a committee is often comprised of creditors with little-to-no bankruptcy experience - so while you are presenting ideas for signoff/comment to the committee, the ideas often originate with, and are developed by, the advisors.

Even high-end creditor work can be fun, though there is an element of being bossed around by jerkoff distressed fund cowboys that can grate. But its high pressure deal work with tight timelines, a lot of pressure to get bespoke drafting right (it's got all the drafting flexibility of private M&A, but all the key deal papers are made public). Much less precedent driven than other work. Harder. Legal skills more valuable.

Finally, bankruptcy lawyers rarely have to deal with closing deliverables and/or opinions. The court order does most of the work. (For folks still in school, why this is a nice perk won't make sense until you start working, and then it very quickly will make a TON OF SENSE.)

There are downsides. Junior debtor-side work can be particularly non-legal and uninteresting. Creditor work at second tier firms can be sort of ghastly, executing claims trades and such. Fire drills are routine, and if you're a on a core team prepping a debtor to file, you will work harder than you ever thought possible for the ~2 weeks prior to filing.

But at the small group of top bankruptcy firms - really only ~10 firms - its an awesome gig.

[RaceJudicata]

Thank you for taking the time to write that out. Incredibly helpful.