Are TLSers Whiney? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

I have to say it was pretty hard to go through 3L still looking for work when most of my classmates were coasting after securing their BigLaw gigs. Devastating at times even.

The nice thing about going to school where most people didn't get biglaw was that you didn't run into this as much - most people were still looking 3L.

[Anonymous User]

I thought law school was a joke. Basically a 3-year vacation with a few weeks of actual work. Big law, on the other hand, is miserable. Far worse than even the threads on this forum might lead you to believe. And this is from someone that has spent time at 2 firms and has prior white collar experience. I'll also echo the fact that litigators seem generally happier.

[Desert Fox]

Law students in general do this sort of complain brag competition. Law school is tssooooooo hard. I studied like 80 hours a week and I'm still going go fail! (After they got an A- average last semester). They are really saying "I studied harder than you and I'm better than you." But like you say it's a complete exaggeration. But it isn't whiney in nature. It's pure bragging.

So when you get to big law there is some exaggeration of work load. You'll see people say biglaw is 80 hour to 100 hours a week. That's mostly nonsense but occasionally you'll get a week like that. In the over 100 weeks I've worked biglaw I've only done over 80 maybe 5-7 times. The average is more like a full 60 maybe 65. You'll hear people say "man you gotta bill 2800 hours!" When in reality 2400 is considered high at almost every firm.

But what isn't an exaggeration is how terrible biglaw really is. The culture, the environment, the work, the stress. If anything understated due to idiot summer associates talking about shit they don't understand.

They also underestimate how terrible 60-65 hard hours of pure work is. Remember these people thought that they were studyjng 80 hours at law school. Even if you worked before law school most white collar jobs at 9-6 with an hour lunch and hours of bullshit like water-cooler talk and surfing the Web. And you asked that person how much they worked they prob over estimate and say 50-60 hours when legally it's 40 and when adjusted for clowning around its more like 25.

That's the worst part of biglaw. You really don't get to count unproductive time in biglaw. So you take 20 min lunches and don't talk to anyone all day. It's the difference between 3 years in jail and 3 years in solitary.

[zot1]

Summer associates are the worst (sorry, guys). I was in a discussion about careers and I made the mistake (maybe?) of saying that what I didn't like about BigLaw was that the idea of work-life balance was unexistent. I said this to a group of 10 where 7 people had BigLaw lined up. I was eaten alive after my comment:

"You're wrong! My firm emphasized nothing but work-life balance this summer."

"What are you talking about? Associates in my firm were gone by 6pm every night"

"You're just saying that because you're not going to BigLaw."

And this is just what was said to my face. Imagine behind my back? I really was labeled as the jealous person because I didn't have BigLaw lined up.

Now I see most of those people (some are in clerkships for a year before BigLaw so they don't know what's coming to him) posting a picture of LA at 9pm from their office about how they're living the life and I'm in my PJs engaging in a solid routine of Netflix and chill.

So yeah, SA life =/= associate life.

[FamilyLawEsq]

Yes TLS users are whiners. And lawyers like to bitch about everything.

[WinterComing]

Non tlsers too. You weren't alive the last time attorney wasn't ranked the worst profession in the U.S.

I feel like newspaper reporter tends to top those lists these days. Make 30K, work nights and weekends and holidays (often exclusively), then get laid off (-13% job growth predicted for the next five years).

They also underestimate how terrible 60-65 hard hours of pure work is. Remember these people thought that they were studyjng 80 hours at law school. Even if you worked before law school most white collar jobs at 9-6 with an hour lunch and hours of bullshit like water-cooler talk and surfing the Web. And you asked that person how much they worked they prob over estimate and say 50-60 hours when legally it's 40 and when adjusted for clowning around its more like 25.

Thank you. The way you framed this is totally clarifying for me as a 0L. At my current job, I do a task, then dick around on the internet for an hour, then maybe do something else. So while I'm in the office for maybe 50 hours a week, I work way less than that. I have no idea how I would handle trying to go hard that whole time plus some, but probably not well.

(Also, sorry for posting in this forum as a 0L. Please don't smite me. I won't make a habit of it.)

[Desert Fox]

Summer associates are the worst (sorry, guys). I was in a discussion about careers and I made the mistake (maybe?) of saying that what I didn't like about BigLaw was that the idea of work-life balance was unexistent. I said this to a group of 10 where 7 people had BigLaw lined up. I was eaten alive after my comment:

"You're wrong! My firm emphasized nothing but work-life balance this summer."

"What are you talking about? Associates in my firm were gone by 6pm every night"

"You're just saying that because you're not going to BigLaw."

And this is just what was said to my face. Imagine behind my back? I really was labeled as the jealous person because I didn't have BigLaw lined up.

Now I see most of those people (some are in clerkships for a year before BigLaw so they don't know what's coming to him) posting a picture of LA at 9pm from their office about how they're living the life and I'm in my PJs engaging in a solid routine of Netflix and chill.

So yeah, SA life =/= associate life.

The next few months will provide some enjoyment for you. After six months the working hard play hard shtick is exposed as just work hard be depressed. Almost everyone in knew liked biglaw for 6 months. But then most get disenchanted real soon.

[zot1]

Summer associates are the worst (sorry, guys). I was in a discussion about careers and I made the mistake (maybe?) of saying that what I didn't like about BigLaw was that the idea of work-life balance was unexistent. I said this to a group of 10 where 7 people had BigLaw lined up. I was eaten alive after my comment:

"You're wrong! My firm emphasized nothing but work-life balance this summer."

"What are you talking about? Associates in my firm were gone by 6pm every night"

"You're just saying that because you're not going to BigLaw."

And this is just what was said to my face. Imagine behind my back? I really was labeled as the jealous person because I didn't have BigLaw lined up.

Now I see most of those people (some are in clerkships for a year before BigLaw so they don't know what's coming to him) posting a picture of LA at 9pm from their office about how they're living the life and I'm in my PJs engaging in a solid routine of Netflix and chill.

So yeah, SA life =/= associate life.

The next few months will provide some enjoyment for you. After six months the working hard play hard shtick is exposed as just work hard be depressed. Almost everyone in knew liked biglaw for 6 months. But then most get disenchanted real soon.

The thing is that I don't wish anyone depression (I know that's not what you said), I was just shocked as to how everything else was possible BUT the idea that BigLaw has its problems.

It's definitely some people refuse to see. And maybe that's what you gotta do to make all that money, I wouldn't know.

[Johann]

Non tlsers too. You weren't alive the last time attorney wasn't ranked the worst profession in the U.S.

I feel like newspaper reporter tends to top those lists these days. Make 30K, work nights and weekends and holidays (often exclusively), then get laid off (-13% job growth predicted for the next five years).

there is no feel like; it's data:
2015 lawyer: http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eh ... -attorney/
and im too lazy but its been this way for a long long time. the debt and soul crushingness of the service industry in a modern world where anyone can reach you at any time and being subject to the whims of the economy is really, really brutal.

[WinterComing]

Non tlsers too. You weren't alive the last time attorney wasn't ranked the worst profession in the U.S.

I feel like newspaper reporter tends to top those lists these days. Make 30K, work nights and weekends and holidays (often exclusively), then get laid off (-13% job growth predicted for the next five years).

there is no feel like; it's data:
2015 lawyer: http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eh ... -attorney/
and im too lazy but its been this way for a long long time. the debt and soul crushingness of the service industry in a modern world where anyone can reach you at any time and being subject to the whims of the economy is really, really brutal.

That Forbes list you linked is unhappiest. You said worst in your first post, and Forbes actually has newspaper at No. 1 on that list.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mkl45eje ... -reporter/

Either way, covering the cops beat isn't much fun, but neither is BigLaw. Point taken.

[totesTheGoat]

That's the worst part of biglaw. You really don't get to count unproductive time in biglaw. So you take 20 min lunches and don't talk to anyone all day. It's the difference between 3 years in jail and 3 years in solitary.

That is what turned me off to biglaw. During my SAs, I was wined and dined and treated like royalty. However, since I work full-time in biglaw during the school year, I knew it was all bullshit. In the real world, partners don't spend 2 hours talking to you and walking you through things. They spend 5 minutes assigning you work and then shoo you out of the office. Associates are busy enough that they look visibly annoyed if you try to have more than a 2 minute conversation with them in the hall. I usually have 1 or 2 days a week where the only human interaction I get is saying hi to people on the way to the pisser. I left engineering because I wasn't getting enough human contact... it has gotten markedly worse for me while working in biglaw.

That's not to say that it's a solely miserable experience. I enjoy parts of the job immensely. I enjoy them even more because I have a built in excuse to drop everything at 5pm. If the attorney wants something done "ASAP" at 4:55pm, they have to wait until I get out of class at 10pm, which usually means they'll find somebody else to do it. I'm also not held to strict billing hours requirements. As long as I'm at or around 110 hours/month and 75% efficiency, I'm fine. My point being that I have it better than many associates, because I'm exempt from the "we own you 24/7/365" mentality.

If you're a workaholic (somebody who derives enjoyment from their work), biglaw is right for you. You'll get to spend a lot of time honing your craft, producing better and better work, and learning subtle nuance that makes you into a great attorney. However, if (like me) you don't derive enjoyment from your work, you'll be miserable in biglaw, because there is no balance.

[Anonymous User]

Law students in general do this sort of complain brag competition. Law school is tssooooooo hard. I studied like 80 hours a week and I'm still going go fail! (After they got an A- average last semester). They are really saying "I studied harder than you and I'm better than you." But like you say it's a complete exaggeration. But it isn't whiney in nature. It's pure bragging.

So when you get to big law there is some exaggeration of work load. You'll see people say biglaw is 80 hour to 100 hours a week. That's mostly nonsense but occasionally you'll get a week like that. In the over 100 weeks I've worked biglaw I've only done over 80 maybe 5-7 times. The average is more like a full 60 maybe 65. You'll hear people say "man you gotta bill 2800 hours!" When in reality 2400 is considered high at almost every firm.

But what isn't an exaggeration is how terrible biglaw really is. The culture, the environment, the work, the stress. If anything understated due to idiot summer associates talking about shit they don't understand.

They also underestimate how terrible 60-65 hard hours of pure work is. Remember these people thought that they were studyjng 80 hours at law school. Even if you worked before law school most white collar jobs at 9-6 with an hour lunch and hours of bullshit like water-cooler talk and surfing the Web. And you asked that person how much they worked they prob over estimate and say 50-60 hours when legally it's 40 and when adjusted for clowning around its more like 25.

That's the worst part of biglaw. You really don't get to count unproductive time in biglaw. So you take 20 min lunches and don't talk to anyone all day. It's the difference between 3 years in jail and 3 years in solitary.

Yeah, 60-65 is probably average in my experience as well. But keep in mind you are probably working at least a couple late nights (until midnight or so) every week plus some on the weekends and often on "ASAP" projects that people forgot to assign you or that the client suddenly wants ASAP. So you're constantly going from ASAP project to ASAP project, at least in transactional groups. A 40 hour job where you know deadlines ahead of time is a dream in comparison......

[PMan99]

I think certain posters can be whiney, or maybe TLSers in general can be whiney, but it doesn't change the following truths:

1) Biglaw is miserable. This is validated by pretty much every non-TLS source as well, whether it's other forums, blogs/books/etc. of ex-lawyers, industry surveys, or just talking to people in real life. Many would say this is actually true of the law in general, but biglaw is like a hyper-concentrated version of that.

2) SAs, students, and 0Ls who post about biglaw are almost universally unduly optimistic.

One can be both whiney and correct.

[ticklemesilly]

I've been telling people for years that I went to law school for a 3 year vacation because it's true. If you think law school is a really easy time where you rarely have to put in much effort, you're right. The real world, unfortunately, requires you to wake up in the morning.

You went to CLS and didn't wake up in the mornings to put in hard work? You must be a genius.

[ticklemesilly]

OP has done one semester of law school and starts wondering if posters with years of experience in biglaw are just whiners.

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

General consensus on TLS is that Biglaw is hellish. So I'm trying to figure out whether TLS might be misrepresenting this too.

It's not like I'm second guessing peoples' years of experience out of the blue. TLS has painted a very inaccurate picture of law school for me in the past, and I was just wondering if people who experienced Biglaw found that TLS painted a similarly inaccurate picture for them as well.

Not trying to be presumptuous- just asking about peoples' experiences.

[Anonymous User]

I've been telling people for years that I went to law school for a 3 year vacation because it's true. If you think law school is a really easy time where you rarely have to put in much effort, you're right. The real world, unfortunately, requires you to wake up in the morning.

You went to CLS and didn't wake up in the mornings to put in hard work? You must be a genius.

CLS honors grad here, can confirm. Very little work is necessary to do well in law school. I had many friends that graduated with honors that attended less than 25% of their classes. Get your hands on good outlines 2-4 weeks out from the exam, review old exams and you're golden.

I honestly think that my ability to relax and not stress myself out helped me outperform those that made every day a grind for themselves.

[zot1]

OP has done one semester of law school and starts wondering if posters with years of experience in biglaw are just whiners.

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

General consensus on TLS is that Biglaw is hellish. So I'm trying to figure out whether TLS might be misrepresenting this too.

It's not like I'm second guessing peoples' years of experience out of the blue. TLS has painted a very inaccurate picture of law school for me in the past, and I was just wondering if people who experienced Biglaw found that TLS painted a similarly inaccurate picture for them as well.

Not trying to be presumptuous- just asking about peoples' experiences.

General consensus is that law school was a vacation specially compared to BigLaw.

You and I both see a different consensus on this. Maybe there isn't one?

That's not the same for BigLaw. There's no second consensus that BigLaw is the best kept secret and people would be stupid not to do it.

But really, I'm excited for you to do it and see how it turns out for you. Maybe you will like it.

[totesTheGoat]

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

The reality at a T10 is not the reality at law school as a whole. Even at most T1 schools, you have to be top 1/4 or top 10% to even be considered for biglaw. That means a lot of neurotic law students working really hard to try to beat one another. When you go to a school that has a 40% biglaw rate, you don't have to stress as much, the battle was won at admittance.

Law school is hellish if you've set yourself up to fail, which most law students have done.

[zot1]

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

The reality at a T10 is not the reality at law school as a whole. Even at most T1 schools, you have to be top 1/4 or top 10% to even be considered for biglaw. That means a lot of neurotic law students working really hard to try to beat one another. When you go to a school that has a 40% biglaw rate, you don't have to stress as much, the battle was won at admittance.

Law school is hellish if you've set yourself up to fail, which most law students have done.

This is actually very true.

The worst part about law school is the stress of securing a job.

[ticklemesilly]

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

The reality at a T10 is not the reality at law school as a whole. Even at most T1 schools, you have to be top 1/4 or top 10% to even be considered for biglaw. That means a lot of neurotic law students working really hard to try to beat one another. When you go to a school that has a 40% biglaw rate, you don't have to stress as much, the battle was won at admittance.

Law school is hellish if you've set yourself up to fail, which most law students have done.

It's a valid point but TLSers are disproportionately at T14 schools, which is a sample that should be more representative of my experience.

I guess I just have to hope that the TLS representation of Biglaw, however accurate it may be, is also not representative of my future experience. Only time will tell.

[Tls2016]

OP has done one semester of law school and starts wondering if posters with years of experience in biglaw are just whiners.

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

General consensus on TLS is that Biglaw is hellish. So I'm trying to figure out whether TLS might be misrepresenting this too.

It's not like I'm second guessing peoples' years of experience out of the blue. TLS has painted a very inaccurate picture of law school for me in the past, and I was just wondering if people who experienced Biglaw found that TLS painted a similarly inaccurate picture for them as well.

Not trying to be presumptuous- just asking about peoples' experiences.

Guessed I missed this general consensus on law schools. Was that decided in posts from anxious 0Ls or students or grads? I haven't seen many people say law school is hard. People say law school is unpredictable and working hard isn't enough to guarantee grades, unlike undergrad.

[Tls2016]

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

The reality at a T10 is not the reality at law school as a whole. Even at most T1 schools, you have to be top 1/4 or top 10% to even be considered for biglaw. That means a lot of neurotic law students working really hard to try to beat one another. When you go to a school that has a 40% biglaw rate, you don't have to stress as much, the battle was won at admittance.

Law school is hellish if you've set yourself up to fail, which most law students have done.

It's a valid point but TLSers are disproportionately at T14 schools, which is a sample that should be more representative of my experience.

I guess I just have to hope that the TLS representation of Biglaw, however accurate it may be, is also not representative of my future experience. Only time will tell.

Why did you even start this thread? To humble brag that everyone thinks law school is hard but you don't?
You are not going to change your opinion of biglaw so why did you bother.

[ticklemesilly]

Nope, that's a misrepresentation. General consensus on TLS is that law school is hellish. The reality at my T10 is that most people enjoy it.

The reality at a T10 is not the reality at law school as a whole. Even at most T1 schools, you have to be top 1/4 or top 10% to even be considered for biglaw. That means a lot of neurotic law students working really hard to try to beat one another. When you go to a school that has a 40% biglaw rate, you don't have to stress as much, the battle was won at admittance.

Law school is hellish if you've set yourself up to fail, which most law students have done.

It's a valid point but TLSers are disproportionately at T14 schools, which is a sample that should be more representative of my experience.

I guess I just have to hope that the TLS representation of Biglaw, however accurate it may be, is also not representative of my future experience. Only time will tell.

Why did you even start this thread? To humble brag that everyone thinks law school is hard but you don't?
You are not going to change your opinion of biglaw so why did you bother.

It's not a humble brag. I think law school is challenging (and I never said otherwise, so again, a misrepresentation). I just don't think it's hell, and I'm not miserable.

[totesTheGoat]

It's not a humble brag. I think law school is challenging. I just don't think it's hell, and I'm not miserable.

If I may ask... what was your UG major?

[ticklemesilly]

It's not a humble brag. I think law school is challenging. I just don't think it's hell, and I'm not miserable.

If I may ask... what was your UG major?

I don't want to reveal too much, but let's just say it was statistics based.