For Austin - 1L MoFo, Skadden, Davis Polk, Fenwick vs. Austin Forum

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

Lemme throw my anecdata into this mess of a thread.

I'm from the East Coast, go to HLS, and spent a sizable chunk of my OCI interviews on Texas (Austin in particular). I have some family in Texas--mostly near Houston--and that was my only "tie." It didn't go well.

Austin firms were picky. I only know of 6 people in my year who got SA spots in Austin, and many more than that tried. 3 of them are actually from Austin, and the others are from other parts of Texas. A couple even had 1L SAs in Texas. I don't think I ever had a shot. It's a TINY market.

I'm kinda set on the idea of going there, so I've been attending firm events as a 2L and networking with Texas attorneys. They all tell me the same thing; there just aren't a lot of firm jobs in Austin and it's going to be tough to snag one. They know it's an in-demand city and being from Texas seems to be the single most important factor to get an offer (from the perspective of interviewing at HLS). I know this is a limited sample size, but none of my fellow "outsiders" (i.e. people not at least from some part of Texas) were able to get Austin offers. I'm still trying, but I don't have high hopes.

I'll throw to you the advice I gave the OP. If you're coming from out-of-state, I think your best bet is to get some experience first, then try to go down there. In the mean time make more connections with Texas attorneys.

110 people move to Austin every day, and the city is not built to handle as many people as it has. Consequently, firm jobs are hard to come by.

Heck, even lots of UT grads have a hard time finding jobs. Yes, really. Austin is a city where almost no one wants to leave and a shitload of people want to go there. Competition is ridiculous. You'll find UT grads all over the place in Dallas and Houston now, because it's easier to find jobs there.

[robotrick]

Lemme throw my anecdata into this mess of a thread.

I'm from the East Coast, go to HLS, and spent a sizable chunk of my OCI interviews on Texas (Austin in particular). I have some family in Texas--mostly near Houston--and that was my only "tie." It didn't go well.

Austin firms were picky. I only know of 6 people in my year who got SA spots in Austin, and many more than that tried. 3 of them are actually from Austin, and the others are from other parts of Texas. A couple even had 1L SAs in Texas. I don't think I ever had a shot. It's a TINY market.

I'm kinda set on the idea of going there, so I've been attending firm events as a 2L and networking with Texas attorneys. They all tell me the same thing; there just aren't a lot of firm jobs in Austin and it's going to be tough to snag one. They know it's an in-demand city and being from Texas seems to be the single most important factor to get an offer (from the perspective of interviewing at HLS). I know this is a limited sample size, but none of my fellow "outsiders" (i.e. people not at least from some part of Texas) were able to get Austin offers. I'm still trying, but I don't have high hopes.

I'll throw to you the advice I gave the OP. If you're coming from out-of-state, I think your best bet is to get some experience first, then try to go down there. In the mean time make more connections with Texas attorneys.

110 people move to Austin every day, and the city is not built to handle as many people as it has. Consequently, firm jobs are hard to come by.

Heck, even lots of UT grads have a hard time finding jobs. Yes, really. Austin is a city where almost no one wants to leave and a shitload of people want to go there. Competition is ridiculous. You'll find UT grads all over the place in Dallas and Houston now, because it's easier to find jobs there.

I'm prepared to try again later, but I'd prefer to get down there right after school even if I have to take a non-firm job. So I'm doing the networking, and I think I have some solid firm contacts to reach out to in the fall for 3L openings. And I'm trying for a clerkship down there (also slim pickings). And I could do 3L OCI if I'm very desperate. And there are a number of really cool PI orgs there that I'd be happy to work for, at least in the short term. I'm putting in the effort, but it feels like a real long shot, and I think it's helpful for others to know about that.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't the worry that people will try and leave for a "better" market in the future?

At least for my 2L summer hiring, once I got an offer in NY the super insular secondary that was my second target was super receptive. If you have a Skadden/DPW/Mofo/Fenwick offer going into 2L OCI, you literally can say I have an offer at one of the best firms in NY but I really want to come to X. This worked really well for me.

[Anonymous User]

Just another data point from someone starting in Austin biglaw after grad. It is a bit of a crapshoot, but my recommendation is to be interested in the type of legal work that is done in Austin (e.g., startup/VC transactional, IP litigation, environmental/utility). Don't go in just vaguely saying you want to do litigation, for instance, because there is very little traditional litigation work at the big firms.

[PeanutsNJam]

Everyone and their mom is trying to go to Austin

Is this true? Why? I get why someone might love Austin, but everyone?

[BigZuck]

Everyone and their mom is trying to go to Austin

Is this true? Why? I get why someone might love Austin, but everyone?

What that poster meant was that Austin is a desireable market for a lot of people

Good point re: hyperbole though

Words should be all literal, all the time. This thread is a monument to that.

[PeanutsNJam]

I was just concerned that Austin was this magical paradise that was universally regarded as a desirable place to work that I had no idea of. I get why LA might be saturated or something (great weather, hollywood, great weather, 99999 Cali law schools, great weather, etc.)

[Anonymous User]

I was just concerned that Austin was this magical paradise that was universally regarded as a desirable place to work that I had no idea of. I get why LA might be saturated or something (great weather, hollywood, great weather, 99999 Cali law schools, great weather, etc.)

Austin is awesome + relatively low COL

[DJ JD]

T8... hmmm, idk, I'd rather take the money than live in Austin. Seeing as you're considering otherwise, you must be from the East Coast, because I can't imagine anyone's that stupid to leave California to come to Austin. The city's pretty overrated tbh. No sports, it's still hot as hell, perhaps the most agonizing traffic in the world, more expensive than anything in Texas should be, and given the way Dallas & Houston are copying the hell out of the whole Austin restaurant and bar vibe, the only real unique thing about it is the natural scenery. Not in any way saying it's bad objectively, but I'd easily pick a real city on either coast (or even Chicago) before settling in Austin.. cough *San Francisco* cough. I'd rather commute there from the far side of San Jose and spend 2x as much doing so than to drive 15 miles anywhere in Austin.

I could easily see why you'd want to move from the East Coast, however, I'd take the money, because coming for a summer isn't a guarantee to get you a job here. Then you missed out on, what, 30K, what for a shot in the bucket at Austin? As much as I despise the East Coast, I'd take security there over being poor.

[WokeUpInACar]

T8... hmmm, idk, I'd rather take the money than live in Austin. Seeing as you're considering otherwise, you must be from the East Coast, because I can't imagine anyone's that stupid to leave California to come to Austin. The city's pretty overrated tbh. No sports, it's still hot as hell, perhaps the most agonizing traffic in the world, more expensive than anything in Texas should be, and given the way Dallas & Houston are copying the hell out of the whole Austin restaurant and bar vibe, the only real unique thing about it is the natural scenery. Not in any way saying it's bad objectively, but I'd easily pick a real city on either coast (or even Chicago) before settling in Austin.. cough *San Francisco* cough. I'd rather commute there from the far side of San Jose and spend 2x as much doing so than to drive 15 miles anywhere in Austin.

I could easily see why you'd want to move from the East Coast, however, I'd take the money, because coming for a summer isn't a guarantee to get you a job here. Then you missed out on, what, 30K, what for a shot in the bucket at Austin? As much as I despise the East Coast, I'd take security there over being poor.

I've seen a lot of people say this about Austin and I don't really get it. If you've gotta take I-35 or MoPac anytime in the vicinity of morning or evening rush hour, yes, you're obviously going to have a very bad time. Just don't live more than 2 miles from downtown and it's a much smaller problem.

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

T8... hmmm, idk, I'd rather take the money than live in Austin. Seeing as you're considering otherwise, you must be from the East Coast, because I can't imagine anyone's that stupid to leave California to come to Austin. The city's pretty overrated tbh. No sports, it's still hot as hell, perhaps the most agonizing traffic in the world, more expensive than anything in Texas should be, and given the way Dallas & Houston are copying the hell out of the whole Austin restaurant and bar vibe, the only real unique thing about it is the natural scenery. Not in any way saying it's bad objectively, but I'd easily pick a real city on either coast (or even Chicago) before settling in Austin.. cough *San Francisco* cough. I'd rather commute there from the far side of San Jose and spend 2x as much doing so than to drive 15 miles anywhere in Austin.

I could easily see why you'd want to move from the East Coast, however, I'd take the money, because coming for a summer isn't a guarantee to get you a job here. Then you missed out on, what, 30K, what for a shot in the bucket at Austin? As much as I despise the East Coast, I'd take security there over being poor.

I've seen a lot of people say this about Austin and I don't really get it. If you've gotta take I-35 or MoPac anytime in the vicinity of morning or evening rush hour, yes, you're obviously going to have a very bad time. Just don't live more than 2 miles from downtown and it's a much smaller problem.

Well, that's the thing. That's the most expensive part of town. Lots of people have no choice but to live in East or South Austin.

The traffic is ungodly horrendous in Austin. Because greater Austin holds about 2 million people, when it is only prepared to sustain about 800,000. The immense popularity of Austin has a few consequences.

That said, Austin traffic is still nothing compared to a place like LA.

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

T8... hmmm, idk, I'd rather take the money than live in Austin. Seeing as you're considering otherwise, you must be from the East Coast, because I can't imagine anyone's that stupid to leave California to come to Austin. The city's pretty overrated tbh. No sports, it's still hot as hell, perhaps the most agonizing traffic in the world, more expensive than anything in Texas should be, and given the way Dallas & Houston are copying the hell out of the whole Austin restaurant and bar vibe, the only real unique thing about it is the natural scenery. Not in any way saying it's bad objectively, but I'd easily pick a real city on either coast (or even Chicago) before settling in Austin.. cough *San Francisco* cough. I'd rather commute there from the far side of San Jose and spend 2x as much doing so than to drive 15 miles anywhere in Austin.

I may have to check my numbers on this, but Californians make up the largest out-of-state group moving to Austin. The locals gripe about the infiltration of Californians all the time.

[Anonymous User]

T8... hmmm, idk, I'd rather take the money than live in Austin. Seeing as you're considering otherwise, you must be from the East Coast, because I can't imagine anyone's that stupid to leave California to come to Austin. The city's pretty overrated tbh. No sports, it's still hot as hell, perhaps the most agonizing traffic in the world, more expensive than anything in Texas should be, and given the way Dallas & Houston are copying the hell out of the whole Austin restaurant and bar vibe, the only real unique thing about it is the natural scenery. Not in any way saying it's bad objectively, but I'd easily pick a real city on either coast (or even Chicago) before settling in Austin.. cough *San Francisco* cough. I'd rather commute there from the far side of San Jose and spend 2x as much doing so than to drive 15 miles anywhere in Austin.

I may have to check my numbers on this, but Californians make up the largest out-of-state group moving to Austin. The locals gripe about the infiltration of Californians all the time.

lol on Austin not being "a real city," whatever that means. Anyway, DPDW is right on w/r/t the insanely high # of Californian implants to Austin. as far as Austin demographics go, they're outnumbered only by folks moving here from other parts of Texas.

and on that "15 mile" drive in Austin... here's the thing, there's no reason to do that. sure it's relatively more expensive near the city center, but i made enough cash in my freakin first six months on the job to buy a house 3 miles away from my office downtown. i can bike/bus to work no problem. and if i leave outside of rush hour--which, you know, lawyers can do--i have no problem driving, and it's less than 10 mins door-to-door. try doing that in a non-Texas biglaw market.

i've lived in a lot of places in this country and abroad. sure, Austin isn't perfect. and sure, a pro sports team would be nice. but, imo, the "stupid" people are those suffering through the high COL on the coasts when they could be making the same $$ in Austin. as far as i can tell, it's just a higher QOL. OP, good luck. my advice is to find some target firms/practice groups here in Austin, and then take the 1L firm job with a practice group that best matches what you're looking to do in Austin.

[Anonymous User]

Austin midlevel corporate associate here.

People ITT make fair points overall, but I still disagree that it is so hard to get a job here. OP--take the 1L gig at FW if you get it, and if not take Skadden or DPW. You will be able to get to Austin if you want (probably as an entry level, but at worst 2 years or so out). The firms here hiring the most ppl are WSGR, DLA, and AK. The tech/VC market is very hot. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Austin midlevel corporate associate here.

People ITT make fair points overall, but I still disagree that it is so hard to get a job here. OP--take the 1L gig at FW if you get it, and if not take Skadden or DPW. You will be able to get to Austin if you want (probably as an entry level, but at worst 2 years or so out). The firms here hiring the most ppl are WSGR, DLA, and AK. The tech/VC market is very hot. Good luck.

The best part of this thread to me is that some thing there are "surer" options than Austin. That cracks me up because it indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal market and employment in general and also a lack of understanding of what kind of lawyer Austin firms general look for.

[BigZuck]

Austin midlevel corporate associate here.

People ITT make fair points overall, but I still disagree that it is so hard to get a job here. OP--take the 1L gig at FW if you get it, and if not take Skadden or DPW. You will be able to get to Austin if you want (probably as an entry level, but at worst 2 years or so out). The firms here hiring the most ppl are WSGR, DLA, and AK. The tech/VC market is very hot. Good luck.

The best part of this thread to me is that some thing there are "surer" options than Austin. That cracks me up because it indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal market and employment in general and also a lack of understanding of what kind of lawyer Austin firms general look for.

You don't think it's easier to get an offer at Skadden NYC than it is at an Austin outpost?

[Anonymous User]

Austin midlevel corporate associate here.

People ITT make fair points overall, but I still disagree that it is so hard to get a job here. OP--take the 1L gig at FW if you get it, and if not take Skadden or DPW. You will be able to get to Austin if you want (probably as an entry level, but at worst 2 years or so out). The firms here hiring the most ppl are WSGR, DLA, and AK. The tech/VC market is very hot. Good luck.

The best part of this thread to me is that some thing there are "surer" options than Austin. That cracks me up because it indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal market and employment in general and also a lack of understanding of what kind of lawyer Austin firms general look for.

You don't think it's easier to get an offer at Skadden NYC than it is at an Austin outpost?

See, I have an issue with how you phrase certain things. Easier? For whom? In what manner?

Certainly, for some, its much 'easier' to get an Austin gig. That should go without saying.

[Abbie Doobie]

and on that "15 mile" drive in Austin... here's the thing, there's no reason to do that. .

school districts

[BigZuck]

See, I have an issue with how you phrase certain things. Easier? For whom? In what manner?

Certainly, for some, its much 'easier' to get an Austin gig. That should go without saying.

I thought we were talking about a rando T14er? Isn't that what the OP is?

Look Goose- I think you need to figure out a way to keep up here. Right now you're riding the struggle bus and it's mucking up the thread.

So, what are you complaining about here:

The best part of this thread to me is that some thing there are "surer" options than Austin. That cracks me up because it indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal market and employment in general and also a lack of understanding of what kind of lawyer Austin firms general look for.

What, specifically, is the fundamental lack of understanding of the legal market and employment in general? What, specifically, is the kind of lawyer Austin firms "general" look for?

For someone so obsessed with the precision of language, you're not supporting anything that you're saying. You're just farting into the wind here my dude. Try and help the OP instead of sitting back and obnoxiously and pedantically (and unhelpfully) taking shots.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be curious for other 'Austinians' to comment but here's my brief take on Austin:

1) Unlike what some may have muttered in this thread, I think Austin is not only a unique city, it has a unique legal market that itself seemingly seeks to remain insular.

2) I have found that, with Ausin, the focus is not necessarily on grades. As some have already revealed here, firms there turn down people with excellent grades frequently. However, I also know of some firms that only take students with outstanding grades. But from my experience, that is not necessarily the driving forcing of the Austin Lawyer.

3) The Austin lawyer tends to embody and epitomize Austin, imo. Firms there use grades as a baseline for competency but they look at fit stronger there than in other markets. However, their version of fit is different. In most other legal markets, fit refers almost strictly to the firm itself or even more specifically to a practice group in the firm. Certainly, I think firms in Austin are looking for that. However, firms there want a natural fit with the city. Austin is proud to be 'weird' and its lawyers are also proud to be 'weird.' I've never encountered that in another market (maybe SF, for people who live there?). They seem to seek lawyers who have those natural quirkiness that people have come to know Austin for. Furthermore, unlike even other legal markets in Texas, I found Austin Lawyers to be much more laid back, not only in their personalities but also how they dress and how they carry on at work. Lawyers there seem to be expected to be sociable, fun, easy-going, and different. And they tend to want to keep it that way.

4) Therefore, it seems like it would be easy for a typical law student fresh off a semester or year where all they focused on was grades to struggle finding work Austin. It's also easy to see why uptight young professionals beat their heads against a wall trying to land a gig there. Ironically, I met plenty of lawyers there who didn't do so well in school or go a T14 working Austin. They weren't/didn't get jobs in bigger legal markets but the fit right in in Austin.

5) Give Austin a shot. Be yourself and don't sell yourself short. Who knows, it may be a much easier deal for you (not just the op, but anyone) than other markets.

Edit: I'm the anon with the mild back-and-forth with BZ

[Anonymous User]

I'd be curious for other 'Austinians' to comment but here's my brief take on Austin:

1) Unlike what some may have muttered in this thread, I think Austin is not only a unique city, it has a unique legal market that itself seemingly seeks to remain insular.

2) I have found that, with Ausin, the focus is not necessarily on grades. As some have already revealed here, firms there turn down people with excellent grades frequently. However, I also know of some firms that only take students with outstanding grades. But from my experience, that is not necessarily the driving forcing of the Austin Lawyer.

3) The Austin lawyer tends to embody and epitomize Austin, imo. Firms there use grades as a baseline for competency but they look at fit stronger there than in other markets. However, their version of fit is different. In most other legal markets, fit refers almost strictly to the firm itself or even more specifically to a practice group in the firm. Certainly, I think firms in Austin are looking for that. However, firms there want a natural fit with the city. Austin is proud to be 'weird' and its lawyers are also proud to be 'weird.' I've never encountered that in another market (maybe SF, for people who live there?). They seem to seek lawyers who have those natural quirkiness that people have come to know Austin for. Furthermore, unlike even other legal markets in Texas, I found Austin Lawyers to be much more laid back, not only in their personalities but also how they dress and how they carry on at work. Lawyers there seem to be expected to be sociable, fun, easy-going, and different. And they tend to want to keep it that way.

4) Therefore, it seems like it would be easy for a typical law student fresh off a semester or year where all they focused on was grades to struggle finding work Austin. It's also easy to see why uptight young professionals beat their heads against a wall trying to land a gig there. Ironically, I met plenty of lawyers there who didn't do so well in school or go a T14 working Austin. They weren't/didn't get jobs in bigger legal markets but the fit right in in Austin.

5) Give Austin a shot. Be yourself and don't sell yourself short. Who knows, it may be a much easier deal for you (not just the op, but anyone) than other markets.

As someone who grew up in Austin and went to UT, can confirm that this is accurate. It's just different here, give it a shot, if it doesn't work out go to D/H for a few years then lateral in. When you look at the big TX markets, you think Houston and Dallas being big time oil and gas focused, and Austin has some of that, but nowhere near the other markets. In Austin, you aim to find your legal niche and thrive in it.

[Anonymous User]

and on that "15 mile" drive in Austin... here's the thing, there's no reason to do that. .

school districts

ok. but since when are school districts a top consideration for biglaw associates?

and 15 miles to find a good school? c'mon that's nearly Round Rock! you don't necessarily need to be outside the city to find good schools. anecdotally, there's apparently a top-rated public elementary school a couple blocks from my house. and more generally, it would seem to me that as gentrification continues, the urban public and private schools will only get better.

[Anonymous User]

What about smaller/boutique firms with corporate practices? I'm a Corp midlevel with UT undergrad/UT law thinking about post-biglaw life back in Austin. I see Graves Dougherty does some corporate work, as well as mcginnis lochridge. Any others?

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Anonymous User]

People who win lotteries shouldn't explain to other people how easy it is to make money.

isn't this exactly what OP is looking for, though? i.e., how best to break into this market? it seems to me that there's been some decent advice and encouragement from folks who were successful in doing just that.