Any 2Ls or 3L feel a slight twinge of regret about the law firm they picked? Forum

[Mola Ram]

I also thought it was well regarded compared to the other firms (at least on TLS polls), but no one really recognizes it when it comes up in conversation in real life.

I was in law school and had never heard of these places before finding this site. There are very few people in this world that care enough to know the names of big law firms. It's kind of weird that this bothers you.

It may be well regarded within the industry, but the legal professional is very insular. It's a little like European soccer teams. Sure, to fans of soccer when you say that you play for Chelsea, as opposed to Lazio--that means something. To the guy who only gives a shit about cricket, cycling or the Pittsburgh Steelers, it has no meaning. At all.

Alternatively stated, telling chicks at a bar that you work for Winston & Strawn or MoFo while won't register at all.

[Anonymous User]

I also thought it was well regarded compared to the other firms (at least on TLS polls), but no one really recognizes it when it comes up in conversation in real life.

I was in law school and had never heard of these places before finding this site. There are very few people in this world that care enough to know the names of big law firms. It's kind of weird that this bothers you.

It may be well regarded within the industry, but the legal professional is very insular. It's a little like European soccer teams. Sure, to fans of soccer when you say that you play for Chelsea, as opposed to Lazio--that means something. To the guy who only gives a shit about cricket, cycling or the Pittsburgh Steelers, it has no meaning. At all.

Alternatively stated, telling chicks at a bar that you work for Winston & Strawn or MoFo while won't register at all.

OP here; I meant other lawyers don't always recognize my firm as being a big-law, or well regarded, firm. Sure at a financial institution they might; but not some IP in-house lawyer or something. But yea, this isn't really a big deal unless it affects lateral transitions. My insecurities mainly stem from hoping that It's a pleasant enough place to last the requisite number of years to then get a sweet in-house gig. As other people have mentioned, choosing a place with one prevalent practice area feels like rolling dice since I have no idea if that's the type of work I'll find enjoyable.

[jbagelboy]

Cahill is a well regarded firm

Also you're making more money

[Br3v]

Cahill is a well regarded firm

Also you're making more money

[Anonymous User]

Leveraged finance has ridiculous fire drills. Yes, all practice groups have fire drills, but groups like bankruptcy and lev fin have awful hours generally and lots of fire drills.

Having done both leveraged finance as well as HY, IPOs (shoot me now) and various other public offerings, I can safely say IME that the fire drills wrt the latter are 100x worse than leveraged finance. Dealing with all that disclosure, the printer, etc is a PITA. Leveraged finance has fire drills too but if I had to pick I'd say securities is worse.

And to address the OP: (i) you really won't know til you do it (really do it, not do it as a summer), (ii) if you desire you can easily change firms after your summer or once you are an associate so you aren't stuck and there is no reason to worry now..serves no purpose...you should be enjoying your stress less law school existence and relaxing before you get chewed up and spit out by the big law machine, (iii) it matters a hell of a lot more who you work with at a particular firm (and who you work for - i should note PE firms make terrible clients IME) than your general fit with a firm since you will spend all your time interacting with those couple people.

Do your best over the summer to determine whether you think you in fact do think you could stand the work and the people (in a stressful work environment ...changes people's personalities). Do a good job and get an offer (for God's sake get an offer..). Then, unless you really love cahill, I'd throw your hat in the 3L hiring ring and see what comes back. I think firms are increasingly using 3L hiring to manage the uncertainty of hiring 2 years in advance. ...hire a smaller summer associate class and then if more bodies are needed, hire 3Ls. This works to your advantage. Certain firms (at least two V5s that I'm aware of) have hired 3Ls for the past several years. Tx work has its shitty features no matter where you are, so IMHO you may as well be at a better regarded firm....plus you'd have more choices about depts. You can always take cahill's offer in the end if you want (firms don't like this of course but they wouldn't hesitate to no offer you if the economy tanked or whatever. ..it is business).

[Anonymous User]

Leveraged finance has ridiculous fire drills. Yes, all practice groups have fire drills, but groups like bankruptcy and lev fin have awful hours generally and lots of fire drills.

Having done both leveraged finance as well as HY, IPOs (shoot me now) and various other public offerings, I can safely say IME that the fire drills wrt the latter are 100x worse than leveraged finance. Dealing with all that disclosure, the printer, etc is a PITA. Leveraged finance has fire drills too but if I had to pick I'd say securities is worse.

And to address the OP: (i) you really won't know til you do it (really do it, not do it as a summer), (ii) if you desire you can easily change firms after your summer or once you are an associate so you aren't stuck and there is no reason to worry now..serves no purpose...you should be enjoying your stress less law school existence and relaxing before you get chewed up and spit out by the big law machine, (iii) it matters a hell of a lot more who you work with at a particular firm (and who you work for - i should note PE firms make terrible clients IME) than your general fit with a firm since you will spend all your time interacting with those couple people.

Do your best over the summer to determine whether you think you in fact do think you could stand the work and the people (in a stressful work environment ...changes people's personalities). Do a good job and get an offer (for God's sake get an offer..). Then, unless you really love cahill, I'd throw your hat in the 3L hiring ring and see what comes back. I think firms are increasingly using 3L hiring to manage the uncertainty of hiring 2 years in advance. ...hire a smaller summer associate class and then if more bodies are needed, hire 3Ls. This works to your advantage. Certain firms (at least two V5s that I'm aware of) have hired 3Ls for the past several years. Tx work has its shitty features no matter where you are, so IMHO you may as well be at a better regarded firm....plus you'd have more choices about depts. You can always take cahill's offer in the end if you want (firms don't like this of course but they wouldn't hesitate to no offer you if the economy tanked or whatever. ..it is business).

Does this apply to 1st year associates as well? The more I have come to learn about my practice group (and the more I have learned about a practice area that my firm does not have via 3L classes and networking), I am realizing I am in the wrong place. I am at a v5, and I'd like to explore my options elsewhere but I worry about leaving the firm only 1 year in.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't apply to my preferred market because of how difficult people made it seem to obtain on this site and the general recommendation to apply to 2-3 markets at most. It's easier to say with the benefit of hindsight that I shouldn't have applied to NY, however. Still, there's always 3L OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Do your best over the summer to determine whether you think you in fact do think you could stand the work and the people (in a stressful work environment ...changes people's personalities). Do a good job and get an offer (for God's sake get an offer..). Then, unless you really love cahill, I'd throw your hat in the 3L hiring ring and see what comes back. I think firms are increasingly using 3L hiring to manage the uncertainty of hiring 2 years in advance. ...hire a smaller summer associate class and then if more bodies are needed, hire 3Ls. This works to your advantage. Certain firms (at least two V5s that I'm aware of) have hired 3Ls for the past several years. Tx work has its shitty features no matter where you are, so IMHO you may as well be at a better regarded firm....plus you'd have more choices about depts. You can always take cahill's offer in the end if you want (firms don't like this of course but they wouldn't hesitate to no offer you if the economy tanked or whatever. ..it is business).

OP here. Solid advice, really appreciate it. I'm going to try my best to kill it this summer and get an offer, whilst keeping my eye out for groups/people that look like they are good to work it. I'd really prefer to stay at my firm because of 1) relationship building 2) not having to deal with 3l OCI and 3) not starting as an associate at a place I haven't tested out.

Any advice on how I can figure out how I like the actual work during 2L SA? I feel like I won't be doing that much substantive work and that it'll be hard to figure that out. Also I know the firm has other areas (some litigaton, etc), but it's probably best to work on what they're best at right? Banking / HY / lev finance work?

[Anonymous User]

Do your best over the summer to determine whether you think you in fact do think you could stand the work and the people (in a stressful work environment ...changes people's personalities). Do a good job and get an offer (for God's sake get an offer..). Then, unless you really love cahill, I'd throw your hat in the 3L hiring ring and see what comes back. I think firms are increasingly using 3L hiring to manage the uncertainty of hiring 2 years in advance. ...hire a smaller summer associate class and then if more bodies are needed, hire 3Ls. This works to your advantage. Certain firms (at least two V5s that I'm aware of) have hired 3Ls for the past several years. Tx work has its shitty features no matter where you are, so IMHO you may as well be at a better regarded firm....plus you'd have more choices about depts. You can always take cahill's offer in the end if you want (firms don't like this of course but they wouldn't hesitate to no offer you if the economy tanked or whatever. ..it is business).

OP here. Solid advice, really appreciate it. I'm going to try my best to kill it this summer and get an offer, whilst keeping my eye out for groups/people that look like they are good to work it. I'd really prefer to stay at my firm because of 1) relationship building 2) not having to deal with 3l OCI and 3) not starting as an associate at a place I haven't tested out.

Any advice on how I can figure out how I like the actual work during 2L SA? I feel like I won't be doing that much substantive work and that it'll be hard to figure that out. Also I know the firm has other areas (some litigaton, etc), but it's probably best to work on what they're best at right? Banking / HY / lev finance work?

There will probably be a lot of pressure from your peer group to accept your summer offer, and that relationship building can be really valuable, but by the time you turn back up as an associate, most of the people above you will only remember you from your summer if you were exceptionally useless or exceptionally useful. I think most of us look forward to our favorite 3-4 summers coming back, and look out for them when they do, but couldn't pick most of this year's incoming class out of a line-up.

As for Cahill specifically, about half and half do lit vs. corp, so you'll have the option during the summer for work on either side. It really depends on (a) what you want to do when you leave and (b) what specific tasks/work you like doing. Honestly, in my experience here, Cahill has been a pretty great option to start out at on the corporate side. I've gotten paid 10-25k a year more than my peers at other firms, like most of the people I work with and exit options have been really solid for the associates I've liked who've left. Some figured they didn't want to do LevFi/HY fairly quickly and jumped to other corporate practices, others wound up at banks in-house or more 'prestigious', boutique or 'home market' firms. No one good that I know has had problems with the Cahill brand on departure from the corp side, and the extra cash helped me pay off all my debt in 4 years. YMMV, but hope that's some comfort.

[jbagelboy]

Since I'm out of the loop, someone help me out: Are students still desperate to pay sticker for HLS and grind like African diamond miners to get enough H's to cop dat bonsai tree so they can bill 2400 hours a year while making the exact same money as the guy who copped a Cornell scholarship, didn't blow a gasket on his way to median, and coasted to 1900 at Fried Frank for three years?

Because if so, most of them have earned every shitty work situation they wind up in.

It's not like Cornell gives you a 75% chance of getting that job, and I remember reading the 1:12 or whatever chance of any first year making partner is skewed because it was over 33% for HYS grads. At my firm, the HYS people are all either partners or getting the high brow work very quickly into their tenure. Could be correlation, not causation, but who knows?

I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on 1 in 12 first-years making partner in a post-2008 world, and I'm going to go ahead and call super-duper bullshit on 33% of HYS grads doing it.

Yea so those anon numbers are 100% fabricated. We actually do have some data points on # and % of partners made by law school and it has no bearing on the ordering of the US news survey. (I recall Chicago actually making the most partners on a % basis, but the list is horse shit anyway; that's how brainiac placed GW in his new T14).

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more graduates from top schools were leaving their firms early to pursue other opportunities in the public sector, leading to even fewer winding up partners.