Former Transactional Biglaw Associate, AMA Forum

[nealric]

Of course I did. I do not blame my SO whatsoever either. The break point happened at my SOs 30th birthday party where 40 people were there including my entire SOs extended family and friends. A big closing got delayed at the last second to that night and my firm demanded I stay and finish the closing saying it was more important than what I had planned. It was obviously embarassing for my SO to not have me show up. Not fair to blame my SO on this one. No matter how much you explain, things like this are not understandable to anyone outside of the biglaw world.

Damn that is rough.

It is, but I dont want you to think I am a special flower. I have seen deals derail honeymoons, weddings (yes even the associates own wedding), anniversaries and birthdays. My good friend got divorced after missing two consecutive Christmases at his V10 firm. I am not the exception, I am the rule.

For what it's worth, my Biglaw experience was not like that. I had to cancel some casual social plans, but never an important event. To some extent, the people with these horror stories let this happen to them. If you are so indispensable that you absolutely MUST be there on the day of your wedding, you are too indispensable to fire for simply refusing the request.

[Anonymous User]

A couple of questions:

Do you regret not having a job lined up? If you could quit all over again, what would you do differently and do you think with adequate lead time you could have exited directly to another satisfactory position? What are your interests/what kind of graduate degree are you thinking of pursuing? Also, not sure about RE, but for M&A the 8-10 year --> in-house is way off market from what I've seen. Are you focused on staying in one particular geography or are you open to moving, and if the former, would you be willing to share whether that market is more "primary" (e.g. NYC, LA, SF) or secondary? Would also be curious what kind of undergraduate degree/law school ranking you have, but understand if you'd prefer not to disclose.

[Anonymous User]

Of course I did. I do not blame my SO whatsoever either. The break point happened at my SOs 30th birthday party where 40 people were there including my entire SOs extended family and friends. A big closing got delayed at the last second to that night and my firm demanded I stay and finish the closing saying it was more important than what I had planned. It was obviously embarassing for my SO to not have me show up. Not fair to blame my SO on this one. No matter how much you explain, things like this are not understandable to anyone outside of the biglaw world.

Damn that is rough.

It is, but I dont want you to think I am a special flower. I have seen deals derail honeymoons, weddings (yes even the associates own wedding), anniversaries and birthdays. My good friend got divorced after missing two consecutive Christmases at his V10 firm. I am not the exception, I am the rule.

For what it's worth, my Biglaw experience was not like that. I had to cancel some casual social plans, but never an important event. To some extent, the people with these horror stories let this happen to them. If you are so indispensable that you absolutely MUST be there on the day of your wedding, you are too indispensable to fire for simply refusing the request.

Some firms are certainly nicer. I can only report on what I saw. Nobody lets this happen to them. They comply and attend these important dates or are fired. That is hilarious that you view anyone as indispensable. Any top firm can have 50 candidates lined up to replace you on a moments notice.

[Anonymous User]

A couple of questions:

Do you regret not having a job lined up? If you could quit all over again, what would you do differently and do you think with adequate lead time you could have exited directly to another satisfactory position? What are your interests/what kind of graduate degree are you thinking of pursuing? Also, not sure about RE, but for M&A the 8-10 year --> in-house is way off market from what I've seen. Are you focused on staying in one particular geography or are you open to moving, and if the former, would you be willing to share whether that market is more "primary" (e.g. NYC, LA, SF) or secondary? Would also be curious what kind of undergraduate degree/law school ranking you have, but understand if you'd prefer not to disclose.

I do regret leaving without a job lined up although doing a menial job at the mall has helped me regain confidence in humanity by seeing people making 10% of the money have a much more positive attitude. I honestly prefer it to biglaw by far.

I know people who went inhouse and hated it. My firm got hundreds of applications from in house attorneys BEGGING to get back to a firm. Most of the associates I know who went in house hated it just as much if not more, so I don't think its a silver bullet.

My interests are in RE but getting a job anywhere after this gap is basically impossible so I'm looking into things like bartending or tour guide where I can shoot my way to the top and possibly start an enterprise.

Went to a top public undergrad and HYS.

[nealric]

Of course I did. I do not blame my SO whatsoever either. The break point happened at my SOs 30th birthday party where 40 people were there including my entire SOs extended family and friends. A big closing got delayed at the last second to that night and my firm demanded I stay and finish the closing saying it was more important than what I had planned. It was obviously embarassing for my SO to not have me show up. Not fair to blame my SO on this one. No matter how much you explain, things like this are not understandable to anyone outside of the biglaw world.

Damn that is rough.

It is, but I dont want you to think I am a special flower. I have seen deals derail honeymoons, weddings (yes even the associates own wedding), anniversaries and birthdays. My good friend got divorced after missing two consecutive Christmases at his V10 firm. I am not the exception, I am the rule.

For what it's worth, my Biglaw experience was not like that. I had to cancel some casual social plans, but never an important event. To some extent, the people with these horror stories let this happen to them. If you are so indispensable that you absolutely MUST be there on the day of your wedding, you are too indispensable to fire for simply refusing the request.

Some firms are certainly nicer. I can only report on what I saw. Nobody lets this happen to them. They comply and attend these important dates or are fired. That is hilarious that you view anyone as indispensable. Any top firm can have 50 candidates lined up to replace you on a moments notice.

You missed my point. Nobody is indispensable. Which is why they can live without you on your wedding day. It's pretty rare that you can't just delegate whatever work they think you need to do. They may be able to have 50 candidates ready to take your place at a moment's notice, but they spent tens of thousands of dollars recruiting you and would probably take 3-4 months to find a lateral they are happy with. It's still a pain in the neck to replace you. They will fire you for regularly refusing do to work. Very unlikely they will fire you for refusing to do work on your wedding day.

On the in-house point- I suppose companies are as diverse as firms. I can't imagine going back to biglaw after going in-house. It's Shrangri-la by comparison- and I was at a pretty chill firm as far as Biglaw goes.

[legends159]

Of course I did. I do not blame my SO whatsoever either. The break point happened at my SOs 30th birthday party where 40 people were there including my entire SOs extended family and friends. A big closing got delayed at the last second to that night and my firm demanded I stay and finish the closing saying it was more important than what I had planned. It was obviously embarassing for my SO to not have me show up. Not fair to blame my SO on this one. No matter how much you explain, things like this are not understandable to anyone outside of the biglaw world.

Damn that is rough.

It is, but I dont want you to think I am a special flower. I have seen deals derail honeymoons, weddings (yes even the associates own wedding), anniversaries and birthdays. My good friend got divorced after missing two consecutive Christmases at his V10 firm. I am not the exception, I am the rule.

For what it's worth, my Biglaw experience was not like that. I had to cancel some casual social plans, but never an important event. To some extent, the people with these horror stories let this happen to them. If you are so indispensable that you absolutely MUST be there on the day of your wedding, you are too indispensable to fire for simply refusing the request.

Some firms are certainly nicer. I can only report on what I saw. Nobody lets this happen to them. They comply and attend these important dates or are fired. That is hilarious that you view anyone as indispensable. Any top firm can have 50 candidates lined up to replace you on a moments notice.

You may be indispensable for a particular deal just because you have the knowledge from working on it from the beginning and because of time constraints it's not feasible to bring someone else in to replace you. But that's the exception to the rule and most of the time, someone else can step in your shoes to fill your role, or everyone else on the deal team just works more to fill the void.

I also did not have the OP's experience with big events, but I can imagine firms where partners are crueler, pulling something like this. Whenever I had a big event that I absolutely needed time away, I would schedule a 2 week vacation around that time and give everyone 1 month notice and a 2 week reminder, especially the staffing partner so I didn't get put on any deals that conflicted with that event.

But then again, I did work on Thanksgiving every year I was in biglaw. Just the nature of the beast - you can't win them all.

[legends159]

On the in-house point- I suppose companies are as diverse as firms. I can't imagine going back to biglaw after going in-house. It's Shrangri-la by comparison- and I was at a pretty chill firm as far as Biglaw goes.

Agreed completely. I do, however think about the pay gap between me and my biglaw peers from time to time, especially around bonus season. I also worry that I may never become GC of a company unless I go back to a firm for 3-4 more years just to build up contacts and get more deal experience.

[Anonymous User]

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[goodoldmacintosh]

Hey OP, shoot me a PM when you can

[nealric]

On the in-house point- I suppose companies are as diverse as firms. I can't imagine going back to biglaw after going in-house. It's Shrangri-la by comparison- and I was at a pretty chill firm as far as Biglaw goes.

Agreed completely. I do, however think about the pay gap between me and my biglaw peers from time to time, especially around bonus season. I also worry that I may never become GC of a company unless I go back to a firm for 3-4 more years just to build up contacts and get more deal experience.

YMMV of course, but I think the pay gap can be a bit deceptive. Biglaw comp is all cash- which is horrible from a tax perspective. It's even worse for partners who often end up with reimbursed expenses and having to file tax returns in random states they never go to. At the F500, I get 401k match, defined contribution pension, stock grants, better health/dental bennies, which all adds up to a quite a lot of hidden tax-advantaged compensation.

I don't think more biglaw experience would really help becoming GC at my company. It's more about winning the game of thrones once you are in the in-house game rather than specific qualifications.

[Anonymous User]

On the in-house point- I suppose companies are as diverse as firms. I can't imagine going back to biglaw after going in-house. It's Shrangri-la by comparison- and I was at a pretty chill firm as far as Biglaw goes.

Agreed completely. I do, however think about the pay gap between me and my biglaw peers from time to time, especially around bonus season. I also worry that I may never become GC of a company unless I go back to a firm for 3-4 more years just to build up contacts and get more deal experience.

YMMV of course, but I think the pay gap can be a bit deceptive. Biglaw comp is all cash- which is horrible from a tax perspective. It's even worse for partners who often end up with reimbursed expenses and having to file tax returns in random states they never go to. At the F500, I get 401k match, defined contribution pension, stock grants, better health/dental bennies, which all adds up to a quite a lot of hidden tax-advantaged compensation.

I don't think more biglaw experience would really help becoming GC at my company. It's more about winning the game of thrones once you are in the in-house game rather than specific qualifications.

I certainly know people having positive experiences like you, but I also know the hundreds of resumes our firm used to receive from in house attorneys. I also know the interviews I would have with in house attorneys working at startups who had their entire incentive based comp wiped out when their company went belly up who needed the job while facing foreclosure. Glad to hear it worked out well for some on this board.

[nealric]

On the in-house point- I suppose companies are as diverse as firms. I can't imagine going back to biglaw after going in-house. It's Shrangri-la by comparison- and I was at a pretty chill firm as far as Biglaw goes.

Agreed completely. I do, however think about the pay gap between me and my biglaw peers from time to time, especially around bonus season. I also worry that I may never become GC of a company unless I go back to a firm for 3-4 more years just to build up contacts and get more deal experience.

YMMV of course, but I think the pay gap can be a bit deceptive. Biglaw comp is all cash- which is horrible from a tax perspective. It's even worse for partners who often end up with reimbursed expenses and having to file tax returns in random states they never go to. At the F500, I get 401k match, defined contribution pension, stock grants, better health/dental bennies, which all adds up to a quite a lot of hidden tax-advantaged compensation.

I don't think more biglaw experience would really help becoming GC at my company. It's more about winning the game of thrones once you are in the in-house game rather than specific qualifications.

I certainly know people having positive experiences like you, but I also know the hundreds of resumes our firm used to receive from in house attorneys. I also know the interviews I would have with in house attorneys working at startups who had their entire incentive based comp wiped out when their company went belly up who needed the job while facing foreclosure. Glad to hear it worked out well for some on this board.

I think the startup aspect was probably a big reason. Startups are inherently a gamble. The majority fail. But you go to them because they can pay off huge if the company hits it big-time.

[legends159]

YMMV of course, but I think the pay gap can be a bit deceptive. Biglaw comp is all cash- which is horrible from a tax perspective. It's even worse for partners who often end up with reimbursed expenses and having to file tax returns in random states they never go to. At the F500, I get 401k match, defined contribution pension, stock grants, better health/dental bennies, which all adds up to a quite a lot of hidden tax-advantaged compensation.

I don't think more biglaw experience would really help becoming GC at my company. It's more about winning the game of thrones once you are in the in-house game rather than specific qualifications.

Sure, when I factor in all those other factors I get pretty close, but each year my pay doesn't raise in the same way biglaw pay does so that's something to consider. Also, in-house, even at a F500 is not always rosy. Layoffs are a huge worry and lawyers, especially ones that lack seniority and work in large teams, are usually one of the first to go. IBM and HP are just two that come to mind where I've had friends get laid off after starting there less than 2 years ago. Other companies hire consultants who come in to cut costs and the first thing they do is axe the legal and accounting groups since they're viewed as "cost centers." Yes, people get pushed out of firms too, but I'd argue it's easier to lateral to another job from biglaw than from in-house.

[Anonymous User]

For someone who has just gotten into biglaw, would it be stupid to do max 1.5 years? I can really tell I can't stand this. Assume 30k debt.

[desertlaw]

Don't want to derail the thread from OP, but I have seen virtually no instances where important life events are derailed because of firm work. In our practice/office/firm, it's understood that you will cover for someone else if they have an important event (wedding, honeymoon, big family tradition or SO's party) and give you reasonable heads up to your team. Have to cancel a weekend bachelor party trip or night out with friends? Of course. But the 3-4 priority events per year, we are able to go to, mostly because fellow associates look out for each other. I feel bad that OP had a bad experience, but I don't want people out there to think his experience is common across firms/offices of BigLaw.

This is coming from V10 transactional associate where peers and I are billing 2500+.

[PennBull]

Don't want to derail the thread from OP, but I have seen virtually no instances where important life events are derailed because of firm work. In our practice/office/firm, it's understood that you will cover for someone else if they have an important event (wedding, honeymoon, big family tradition or SO's party) and give you reasonable heads up to your team. Have to cancel a weekend bachelor party trip or night out with friends? Of course. But the 3-4 priority events per year, we are able to go to, mostly because fellow associates look out for each other. I feel bad that OP had a bad experience, but I don't want people out there to think his experience is common across firms/offices of BigLaw.

This is coming from V10 transactional associate where peers and I are billing 2500+.

Cosigned.

[krads153]

Don't want to derail the thread from OP, but I have seen virtually no instances where important life events are derailed because of firm work. In our practice/office/firm, it's understood that you will cover for someone else if they have an important event (wedding, honeymoon, big family tradition or SO's party) and give you reasonable heads up to your team. Have to cancel a weekend bachelor party trip or night out with friends? Of course. But the 3-4 priority events per year, we are able to go to, mostly because fellow associates look out for each other. I feel bad that OP had a bad experience, but I don't want people out there to think his experience is common across firms/offices of BigLaw.

This is coming from V10 transactional associate where peers and I are billing 2500+.

So you're literally working 24/7 when you're not sleeping, but YAY you get to go to 4 important life events. WOO HOO.

[Anonymous User]

Don't want to derail the thread from OP, but I have seen virtually no instances where important life events are derailed because of firm work. In our practice/office/firm, it's understood that you will cover for someone else if they have an important event (wedding, honeymoon, big family tradition or SO's party) and give you reasonable heads up to your team. Have to cancel a weekend bachelor party trip or night out with friends? Of course. But the 3-4 priority events per year, we are able to go to, mostly because fellow associates look out for each other. I feel bad that OP had a bad experience, but I don't want people out there to think his experience is common across firms/offices of BigLaw.

This is coming from V10 transactional associate where peers and I are billing 2500+.

Either you are a relatively junior associate and just haven't been around long enough to see this happen, or you are the exception rather than the rule. I know lots of associates who had to work during part of their honeymoon. Did they have to cancel? No, but they also didn't get to just enjoy the f'ing honeymoon. I've also known many associates who had to miss family traditions or SO's party (even landmark parties like a 30th bday party).

[Internetdan]

OP sounds like he got particularly f'd and I don't to swerve in front of his mopey moped but having to actually cancel a wedding is extremely rare to the point of being unheard of outside of some through the grapevine anecdotes from the 80s. I wouldn't characterize any of what he's saying as the rule broadly. Maybe at that particular firm but not my experience or anyone I know in the industry

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to note for posterity that quitting without a job in hand does not have to be a disaster, but you do have to hustle at some point to get a job. I've seen several people do this successfully, and others really botch the exit. One (very well credentialed) person decided to leave and, similar to OP, decided to work at a retail job and got too comfortable. After a few years had passed, we discussed how he wanted to get a better job, etc. and how he had wanted that for some time (since he quit). Amazing thing was that he was never diligent about the job search. A few apps here and there, but nothing coordinated. That's how time will slip away and leaving without something lined up becomes more difficult.