Dropping in 1st semester at T14 Forum

[Anonymous User]

if you dont like it, you should leave. biglaw sucks. law sucks. most people who are at non YSH T14s and want to lead a somewhat normal life will have an infinitely better life dropping out.

lol...have you ever had a non-law job? Law is a lot worse than people (K-JDs, although you may not be) make it out to be. Biglaw has its downsides, but let's be honest--we're overpaid for what little we contribute.

[Danger Zone]

if you dont like it, you should leave. biglaw sucks. law sucks. most people who are at non YSH T14s and want to lead a somewhat normal life will have an infinitely better life dropping out.

lol...have you ever had a non-law job? Law is a lot worse than people (K-JDs, although you may not be) make it out to be. Biglaw has its downsides, but let's be honest--we're overpaid for what little we contribute.

Why is this anon

Also I assume you meant to say law is better than people make it out to be

Which is wrong

[totesTheGoat]

lol...have you ever had a non-law job? Law is a lot worse than people (K-JDs, although you may not be) make it out to be.

I'm not K-JD, I've worked many non-law jobs and had a career before law school. Biglaw sucks compared to my prior career. The only reason biglaw is even remotely interesting is 1) to pay off my loans; and 2) to find a path to in-house.

Biglaw has its downsides, but let's be honest--we're overpaid for what little we contribute.

The only thing that I concede about biglaw is that it certainly pays well. It would've taken me 10 years at my previous career to get even close to sniffing $160k.

[Anonymous User]

Probably Cornell. A few years back, several posters complained about the atmosphere at Cornell Law School. Law schools do have cultural differences.

OP: You can drop out now, work for a few years, then reevaluate your long-term career goals.

Probably right. Rumor has it that there is an influx of 1Ls dropping out, which may have prompted Cornell's Dean to hold a town hall meeting. Apparently its a handful that have already quit and counting.

OP, good luck with your decision. Your gut feeling will never fail you.

Funny. I'm a current Cornell 1L and I'm not happy with the atmosphere here either. I'm not certain what it is. I'm sure the whole 1L thing in general is a big part of it, and that 1L isn't going to be a fun and happy time wherever you are, but I feel that Cornell in particular may have a few characteristics that make it more unpleasant than a lot of other schools. I haven't seriously contemplated dropping out, but the thought has crossed my mind. I'd definitely consider a transfer if that option became available, and I'm not even talking about transferring "up". Even a lateral transfer. If OP is at Cornell, at least he/she knows that there are other people with similar feelings.

[Anonymous User]

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[hunt godlink]

Why is the 1L situation at Cornell uniquely bad?

OP, I would seriously reconsider Teach for America. I have a lot of experience with TFA, and it is not what you think it is. If you would like more information, feel free to send me a pm.

[krads153]

lol...have you ever had a non-law job? Law is a lot worse than people (K-JDs, although you may not be) make it out to be.

I'm not K-JD, I've worked many non-law jobs and had a career before law school. Biglaw sucks compared to my prior career. The only reason biglaw is even remotely interesting is 1) to pay off my loans; and 2) to find a path to in-house.

Biglaw has its downsides, but let's be honest--we're overpaid for what little we contribute.

The only thing that I concede about biglaw is that it certainly pays well. It would've taken me 10 years at my previous career to get even close to sniffing $160k.

The trade off is that unless parents are paying or you have a huge scholly, you're paying a ton of money and spending 3 more years in school to get that 160k. And often you take a pay cut once you leave biglaw.

As for the other post, I don't know what pay has to do with "contributing." Most jobs don't contribute anything. Unless you're barely billing and your firm is slow, biglaw can be god awful terrible (working every single day/every weekend/late nights all the time/on call, etc). And I think the latter is more common than the former. Maybe the anon poster just has a unique experience in biglaw - but biglaw is often as bad as people make it out to be.

OP - if you aren't 100% committed to practicing law, I'd drop out. 200k is a ton of debt to take on for a career that you aren't even sure about. I'm also a practicing attorney (graduated for a few years now) and a lot of practicing attorneys would give you the same advice. Only pursue law if you're 100% sure you want to - this profession takes a lot of time/hours/dedication. Most law jobs (even public interest jobs) work more than 40 hours a week. Many are more like 60 hours a week, so you better like what you're doing. Law isn't like other fields in that law jobs often take up a lot more time than the average job and require you to be on call, even the lower paying law jobs.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

Why is the 1L situation at Cornell uniquely bad?

[tyrant_flycatcher]

Why is the 1L situation at Cornell uniquely bad?

As a 2L at Cornell I am also interested in this, especially since (a) the weather really hasn't been that bad and (b) it takes more than 1/2 of a semester to get bored with Ithaca.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

my guess is that a) isolated location b) really small class size combine to make the already shitty 1L experience (same at all schools) even shittier.

[Anonymous User]

my guess is that a) isolated location b) really small class size combine to make the already shitty 1L experience (same at all schools) even shittier.

- No 1L electives
- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.
- Cliquish students (very snobby and pretensive)
- Lack of diversity or diverse events
- "Fun" social experiences evolve around cheap alcohol at Moonies or balls/parties at university halls (where you have to pay for your own drinks).

[tyrant_flycatcher]

my guess is that a) isolated location b) really small class size combine to make the already shitty 1L experience (same at all schools) even shittier.

- No 1L electives
- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.
- Cliquish students (very snobby and pretensive)
- Lack of diversity or diverse events
- "Fun" social experiences evolve around cheap alcohol at Moonies or balls/parties at university halls (where you have to pay for your own drinks).

FWIW I know very few people who have the character of a pretense. YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

Also a 1L at cornell. I've really enjoyed the semester so far. I haven't found that people are cliquish or snobby, quite the contrary actually. Maybe this is just my section, but everyone seems to be smart, hard working, good people. The course work is brutal, I'll admit that. There's so much to do, and so little time. It's very overwhelming. But, I can't imagine that's unique to Cornell. It's a pretty great place to be, imo.

[rnoodles]

If you've paid tuition for the full semester already and it's non-refundable, work hard and see what happens. After that, weigh your options.

[A. Nony Mouse]

- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.

No it doesn't. My school had the same schedule and people were uber chill.

[zot1]

- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.

No it doesn't. My school had the same schedule and people were uber chill.

Word.

[zot1]

A few things that may or may not help:

1. I didn't do all that great my first semester. I was actually a little below average I think. To be honest it took me a bit to get the hang of it. I hustled later on thoug. I graduated top 30%.

2. Law school does not really equal practice. I actually enjoyed law school and I think practice is a 1,000 times more enjoyable. In fact, life after law school has pretty much been a dream come true for me.

3. Finding jobs you like will be hard but not impossible. I don't think this is all that different than finding jobs outside of law unless you're a hot engineer of some kind.

4. Debt is tough. Only worth it if you can't see yourself doing anything else.

[Anonymous User]

2. Law school does not really equal practice. I actually enjoyed law school and I think practice is a 1,000 times more enjoyable. In fact, life after law school has pretty much been a dream come true for me.

Are you at a firm? Most people I know much prefer law school to practicing, myself included. Law school was chill, relatively little work in comparison and I liked learning different subjects each semester. (I went to a non-Cornell T-14.) Practice is a lot of grinding and tedium. I'll be honest - I barely worked in law school whereas biglaw requires probably on average 60 hour weeks.

[Cogburn87]

Are you at a firm? Most people I know much prefer law school to practicing, myself included. Law school was chill, relatively little work in comparison and I liked learning different subjects each semester. (I went to a non-Cornell T-14.) Practice is a lot of grinding and tedium. I'll be honest - I barely worked in law school whereas biglaw requires probably on average 60 hour weeks.

lol'd

[Trippel]

Cornell 2L here.

November of 1L can be a dark time. Just recognize that it will soon be over and try not to stress too much. Don't worry about having bombed the practice test. Many of us completely fucked it up and went on to do well first semester. Also, try not to allow lawyering to suck much of your time and energy. Lawyering grades are distributed somewhat arbitrarily and everyone either gets a B+ or an A-. You all are about to have a head on collision with the Erie doctrine, but it's going to okay. No matter what it feels like right now, everything will come together by exam time.

I love Cornell and have made wonderful friends here, and I really think many of the disillusioned 1Ls will too. Maybe talk to members of the 2L class? I think we are pretty chill group and many of us would be happy to help in any way we can.

Also, check out SeaLocust's 1L anxiety meditation retreat spa. It helped me more than I'd like to admit.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=216920

[zot1]

2. Law school does not really equal practice. I actually enjoyed law school and I think practice is a 1,000 times more enjoyable. In fact, life after law school has pretty much been a dream come true for me.

Are you at a firm? Most people I know much prefer law school to practicing, myself included. Law school was chill, relatively little work in comparison and I liked learning different subjects each semester. (I went to a non-Cornell T-14.) Practice is a lot of grinding and tedium. I'll be honest - I barely worked in law school whereas biglaw requires probably on average 60 hour weeks.

I'm in federal government. I didn't feel the need to specify that because OP seems to want some sort of public interest route. I work 40 hrs/wk. Work is challenging, sure, but it's stimulating and I'm surrounded by good people. I also have the rest of my days and weekends to myself without having to worry about work like I did in law school.

[Glasseyes]

my guess is that a) isolated location b) really small class size combine to make the already shitty 1L experience (same at all schools) even shittier.

- No 1L electives
- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.
- Cliquish students (very snobby and pretensive)
- Lack of diversity or diverse events
- "Fun" social experiences evolve around cheap alcohol at Moonies or balls/parties at university halls (where you have to pay for your own drinks).

Thoughts from a 2L at a peer school:

-1L electives aren't magically fun, they're still classes with annoying amounts of homework. i took international criminal law, which was hands down the closest thing to a "fun" course we were offered, and I shit you not the highlight was watching a documentary about genocide and mass rape in serbia. i liked the class fine but enjoyed property more, if that tells you anything.

-that's a normal course load, and probably lighter than the 17 credits my school dumps on you in the spring. yes, 4 classes plus lawyering or LRW or whatever it is is horrible. no, it doesn't get any better. but this is not unique to cornell. i trot this story out all the time because it's truly been a highlight of the 1L experience: one of my profs gave us 70 pages a night, employed harsh cold calls with no warning or any way to prepare beyond doing all the reading for every class, and he gave a closed-book final that tested cases we didn't talk about in class. if you pretend the soul-crushing misery is funny, 1L is hilarious!

-can't comment on cliquish students. my school probably had them but I never noticed, because i barely have time for social shit anyway.

-can't comment on diversity or lack thereof (my impression is that few schools are actually diverse). but law school events in general are terrible. use your time off to escape the law school bubble and breathe free air. if I was at Cornell I'd spend all my free time sledding.

-yeah, again on the events. it is what it is. i've been out to bars maybe 4 times since starting law school, and I don't feel like i'm missing much. if you want to have a miserable experience at your school, or in Ithaca in general, you can easily do that. if you want to bail on the entire experience, you can obviously do that too. or you can shift perspective and enjoy Ithaca while you can before you get sucked into the whole NYC biglaw grind.

Real talk: apologies if the above comes off as glib. I really think 1L is best viewed as a brutal crucible that you'll be able to look back on and laugh about. It's like boot camp for know-it-all wimps. By next summer you'll feel like a champion for having survived. You'll have accumulated a few psychic battle scars to be sure, but you'll have earned the stories that go along with them.

Edited to add: poignancy

[jbagelboy]

To be completely honest, the whole 1L has to suck and be this crucible of pain schtick has been blown completely out of proportion. It's stressful. It's more than you expected. And there are about four hellish weeks before your first final where you doubt every decision you've ever made. But through it all, you can have fun; you can enjoy life and have new experiences; you can kill it. Going out four times in law school? What? You can go out four times a week. I've had incredible experiences over the past three years, not comparable to college, sure, but compared to work? Yes, law school blows, but its not because you can't enjoy your life. It's because of the massive opportunity cost and debt and the unadulterated shit you get out of it: practice of law at a junior level. Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

1L compounds all your pressures and worst fears, and the vast majority of law students should drop out because there's a glut of lawyers and tons of more interesting work for anyone with a shred of creativity and intellect, but fuck me if I'll look back on my time in law school and say I was universally lame and miserable. School, in the abstract sense, is awesome. If I had wealthy parents, fuck yes I'd go to graduate school. If you don't have wealthy parents, its a huge waste of time and resources unless you're forcing someone else to pay via scholarship. The true crucible is the debt, and I have a lot less than you would have and it makes me want to vomit each day.

[lavarman84]

- Heavy coursework per semester (ie Torts, K, ConLaw, CivPro and Lawyering in one semester, all graded). Compare this to T14 schools where Property and ConLaw are optional classes that can be taken as an upper-level class. This creates a cutthroat environment.

No it doesn't. My school had the same schedule and people were uber chill.

Word.

I also agree.

[Anonymous User]

To be completely honest, the whole 1L has to suck and be this crucible of pain schtick has been blown completely out of proportion. It's stressful. It's more than you expected. And there are about four hellish weeks before your first final where you doubt every decision you've ever made. But through it all, you can have fun; you can enjoy life and have new experiences; you can kill it. Going out four times in law school? What? You can go out four times a week. I've had incredible experiences over the past three years, not comparable to college, sure, but compared to work? Yes, law school blows, but its not because you can't enjoy your life. It's because of the massive opportunity cost and debt and the unadulterated shit you get out of it: practice of law at a junior level. Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

1L compounds all your pressures and worst fears, and the vast majority of law students should drop out because there's a glut of lawyers and tons of more interesting work for anyone with a shred of creativity and intellect, but fuck me if I'll look back on my time in law school and say I was universally lame and miserable. School, in the abstract sense, is awesome. If I had wealthy parents, fuck yes I'd go to graduate school. If you don't have wealthy parents, its a huge waste of time and resources unless you're forcing someone else to pay via scholarship. The true crucible is the debt, and I have a lot less than you would have and it makes me want to vomit each day.

QFT. x10.