Hanging a Shingle Forum

[ballouttacontrol]

In. Very strongly considering this in the first 0-3 years at this point, as a 3L now. So strongly I'd say it's my plan, unless something really changes my mind.

I'm in pretty serious debt, but that doesn't really seem like it has to be the end of the world. With IBR I figure I can just pay myself a super low salary, like $35k maybe, or basically the max I can without having to pay any taxes. And then have to pay next to nothing on the loans until my firm is more profitable.

I have experience in VERY different practice areas, like IP and Criminal... So I was thinking of possibly having two completely distinct firms operating out of my same office (possibly virtual), so that marketing and such could be more on point to the clientele.

One thing I'm really unsure about is the virtual office. I feel like sophisticated clients might be more OK with it, but low income clients will write you off REAL quick if they think you're doing something shady or fly by night.

[aliens]

One thing I'm really unsure about is the virtual office. I feel like sophisticated clients might be more OK with it, but low income clients will write you off REAL quick if they think you're doing something shady or fly by night.

I don't think they will think it's shady if you use the type of virtual office where you can meet with clients at a location in a conference room. It'll just appear as if you rent shared space there. You can even explain to clients that having a virtual office helps keep your overhead costs down and in turn the fees you charge them can be lower.

[Easy-E]

One thing I'm really unsure about is the virtual office. I feel like sophisticated clients might be more OK with it, but low income clients will write you off REAL quick if they think you're doing something shady or fly by night.

I don't think they will think it's shady if you use the type of virtual office where you can meet with clients at a location in a conference room. It'll just appear as if you rent shared space there. You can even explain to clients that having a virtual office helps keep your overhead costs down and in turn the fees you charge them can be lower.

I think this kind of thing completely depends on your clients really. Also, Foonberg book is pretty great so far. I'm actually enjoying reading it.

[lymenheimer]

I found the thread I was referring to earlier...Isn't as broad as I thought I remembered it to be, but it might be useful if you haven't seen it yet: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 4&t=247071

[Lawdork]

Also, just say 'Utlaw" in a post and he will come share his shitlaw (jk utlaw) wisdom in depth. He's like batman when you shine the emblem into the sky.

or you can search his posts, the man is on a mission to exonerate solo work from the shitlaw label TLS places on it.

[AVBucks4239]

Second year associate at small/mid-size (24 attorneys) civil litigation firm that's in a small/rural 100k population market. I've written several anonymous posts but seriously who cares anymore. Also strongly considering going solo. I could write an entire post why I plan to leave my decent mid-firm job, but the TL;DR is that I'm not happy with what I'm doing (mish-mash of random civil litigation) and I strongly, strongly, strongly dislike law firm politics/having my workflow and marketing controlled entirely by partners.

So my plan:

(1) Work at firm until I'm comfortable representing clients on my own;
(2) Meet solo practitioners in the area, feel out a practice area where there might be a demand;
(3) Save $900/month for at least a year (doable with current income/low fixed expenses);
(4) Refer to every possible resource I can (My Shingle, Divorce Discourse, Lawyerist podcasts, etc.) to learn about solo practice;
(5) Get on appointment lists both at common pleas courts and county courts (talking to judges, each court should get a minimum of one appointment per month);
(6) Reach out to attorney friends in Columbus/Cleveland (both about 1.5-2.5 hours away) to see if I can cover local hearings for their firms once I go solo;
(7) Go solo as soon as I have enough competence to represent clients and six months worth of expenses saved up (and also have a network of attorneys that I can reach out to if I have questions).

That's obviously the bare bones of it and, from what I've learned talking to other solos in the area, hard work isn't enough. You have to have a good business plan and entrepreneurial mindset. The unanimous thing I've also heard from the 5-6 solos I've had coffee/lunch with is to keep expenses as low as possible early on--and that's the key to getting your practice off the ground. Share space with other solos. Do as much paperless work as possible. Don't hire staff until you have a steady enough income stream to support it.

So for the sake of being transparent, here's my monthly budget:

Mortgage/Home Insurance (my 50%): $425/month
DirecTV: $41/month
Home Utilities: $100/month
Cell Phone: $75/month
Groceries: $250/month
Gas (already paid off my car): $100/month
Car Insurance: $65/month
Student Loans (PAYE): $190/month
Dry Cleaning: $30/month
Social/Random: $200/month
Shared Office Space: $200/month (market rate is about $800/month for a decent space, but I'd plan to share space with other solos)
Malpractice Insurance: $100-200/month
Office Utilities/Supplies/Phone Service: $150/month
Healthcare: No idea.
Taxes: 25-30% of income

Total: $2,026 plus healthcare. I also wouldn't leave my current firm until I had them pay for all my bar membership dues and CLEs for that reporting period, so those expenses would be covered for at least a year.

Thus, I don't need to be making a bunch of money to break even and maintain my current lifestyle. Just one OVI case and court appointments each month will keep me above water. For reference, a fellow 2014 graduate is just doing appointment work and expects to make $42,000 this year, and expects that to be at least $50,000 next year (which is sadly more than I currently make).

There's obviously still a lot to iron out. But my basic business model is to (1) keep fixed costs as low as humanly possible, (2) build up attorney referral network, (3) have fixed income via court appointments and covering hearings for out of town attorneys, and (4) really build up/market myself in a particular niche practice that has a demand in the area.

Lastly, I actually think a dedicated "Solo Firm" sticky/thread would be very helpful and informative for the TLS community. I'm sure there's a lot of solos reading my post and thinking "what a dumbass, he missed A, B, and C expenses" and I welcome their criticism. Just another thought as I sit here and ponder about my day.

Cheers.

[Easy-E]

I found the thread I was referring to earlier...Isn't as broad as I thought I remembered it to be, but it might be useful if you haven't seen it yet: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 4&t=247071

I have not, thank you.

Also, just say 'Utlaw" in a post and he will come share his shitlaw (jk utlaw) wisdom in depth. He's like batman when you shine the emblem into the sky.

or you can search his posts, the man is on a mission to exonerate solo work from the shitlaw label TLS places on it.

I'll look him up. I think TLS in general puts a ton of weight into prestige, hence "shitlaw" being thrown around. I guess I view shitlaw as doc review or insurance defense, but I feel like TLS refers to most solo/small practice work as such. I dunno, do people see typical solo practice areas like family, crim defense and t&e as shitlaw? I know PI has it's reputation, and their a certainly slimeball PI attorneys, but there are slimeball biglaw partners. In any segment of the population, there are shitbags. Maybe I'm categorizing what "shitlaw" really is, but this is a concept that seems to be limited to TLS, where the vast majority of people are Biglaw focused.

[Easy-E]

Thanks for the post AV, good info in there. What do you guys think as far as practice areas? Foonberg says NOT to do hourly work when you start off since you won't be as efficient with your time. Obviously he knows better than me, but that seems crazy. I feel like you would want at least one practice area with hourly fees to keep the bills paid (hopefully), while you wait for the (hopefully) larger contingent fees. Obviously its tougher to actually get paid in some of those hourly areas, but assuming you pick cases wisely and understand what your client can/will actually pay, it seems like the best course of action.

[Easy-E]

Lastly, I actually think a dedicated "Solo Firm" sticky/thread would be very helpful and informative for the TLS community. I'm sure there's a lot of solos reading my post and thinking "what a dumbass, he missed A, B, and C expenses" and I welcome their criticism. Just another thought as I sit here and ponder about my day.

I think this a really good idea. The only community I'm really aware of is r/lawfirm, which has some good information but there isn't a ton of people on there. I don't know if this thread really qualifies to be a sticky, although I'd be happy to add links/resources or change the OP entirely. Is anyone aware of another forum dedicated entirely or even partially to solo practice?

[jingosaur]

JD Underground has some good posts on this topic.

[AVBucks4239]

Thanks for the post AV, good info in there. What do you guys think as far as practice areas? Foonberg says NOT to do hourly work when you start off since you won't be as efficient with your time. Obviously he knows better than me, but that seems crazy. I feel like you would want at least one practice area with hourly fees to keep the bills paid (hopefully), while you wait for the (hopefully) larger contingent fees. Obviously its tougher to actually get paid in some of those hourly areas, but assuming you pick cases wisely and understand what your client can/will actually pay, it seems like the best course of action.

Again, I don't have solo experience quite yet, but from talking to solos and working at a mid-size firm for a little more than a year (and handling 90% of our cold calls and initial client consults):

Hourly rates are optimal. But clients hire you because they expect that you know what the hell you're doing, and they aren't going to pay you an hourly rate to figure shit out (unless it's a quirky issue that they specifically asked you to research). You're going to have to cut your time and write off hours of research anyway.

Furthermore, collecting an hourly rate is hard. I know partners here that have $30,000 outstanding bills and then settle for $15,000 from the client. In fact, multiple partners have told me that the hourly rate of attorneys is high to cover for clients who don't pay (almost the same way healthcare costs are high to cover for uninsured patients), and this is much more common than you think. And this is while we have an army of staff to call on our behalf to collect these bills (you likely won't have the same when you first start out as a solo).

Contingency fee cases are dangerous for a variety of reasons: you don't get paid for a couple years, working with insurance companies is an absolute fucking nightmare--especially if you're in a small firm, particular cases (specifically PI, med-mal, etc.) have very high expenses before you recover anything, and you might not even get anything.

Flat fee work is attractive because it's up front and is guaranteed income. And once you get the hang of it, you can reap a very good hourly rate from these cases.

To give an example to this: I've had two clients hire me to draft land installment contracts. Easy enough, charged them $400 flat fee. The first one took me honest to God 10 hours because of several unexpected issues relating to encumbrances on the property that I didn't know about (because I didn't ask enough questions at the consult). Not a chance in hell somebody would pay me for 10 hours forthat. But I got my money up front. And the next time I did a land installment contract, it only took me about 2.5 hours (again, for a $400 flat fee) because I learned from my mistakes and asked the right questions up front. The next land installment contract will likely take me less time, so I'll eventually make a decent hourly rate from this.

Bottom line, I think Foonberg's point is that flat fee work will provide you stable income that will support your contingency fee/hourly work. It sounds like you're thinking about it the other way around, which, given my limited experience, isn't exactly how things work.

And to answer your question: I plan to do court appointments, cover hearings, do wills/trusts for family and friends, and OVI flat fee cases. Then use that experience to establish a niche practice (which I think will be OVI defense). I also have 4-5 family friends, and 3-4 high school friends, that rent out a substantial number of properties. So I'm also going to try to have a landlord/tenant practice and specialize in representing landlords.

I then plan to refer every single PI case to a lawyer that went to my high school. Referral fee is 1/3rd of the attorney's recovery, so I would essentially get 1/9th of the settlement after doing no work. And then he will refer OVIs/other small criminal work/landlord disputes to me. And then establish relationships like that all over town. Have a guy I send probate work to. Another one that I send employer disputes to. Etc. This will be yet another part of my "stable" income stream.

Bottom line is that you need to figure out a *stable* income stream from a variety of work and use that to support the niche practice that you intend to build. And I agree with Foonberg that the best way to accomplish this is to do flat fee cases so you can get your money up front.

[Easy-E]

Thanks, really appreciate the in-depth posts. I kinda forgot about flat fee work. I believe municipal stuff is typically flat fee as well, and I suspect I could drum up quite a bit of that. I think you have a solid plan. I would hope to do the same, though I need to get more info on things like court appointments. I know a number of lawyers in small/solo practice in the general area, so I hope referrals would be a big part of business at first.

I mentioned the program my school runs (it's basically a low-Bono Law Firm in the school). I think it might be my best option, since it means a year of legal experience/mentorship and income so I can continue saving up. Also, the Professor said he refers out a ton of clients to former fellows, although he said he would do that for non-fellows as well. That said, these aren't clients you can charge $250 an hour or something, so who knows how viable that actually is. I think the extra year of experience/mentorship and income would be nice, plus I can defer my relatively small loans for a few.

[AVBucks4239]

Thanks, really appreciate the in-depth posts. I kinda forgot about flat fee work. I believe municipal stuff is typically flat fee as well, and I suspect I could drum up quite a bit of that. I think you have a solid plan. I would hope to do the same, though I need to get more info on things like court appointments. I know a number of lawyers in small/solo practice in the general area, so I hope referrals would be a big part of business at first.

I mentioned the program my school runs (it's basically a low-bono law firm in the school). I think it might be my best option, since it means a year of legal experience/mentorship and income so I can continue saving up. Also, the Professor said he refers out a ton of clients to former fellows, although he said he would do that for non-fellows as well. That said, these aren't clients you can charge $250 an hour or something, so who knows how viable that actually is. I think the extra year of experience/mentorship and income would be nice, plus I can defer my relatively small loans for a few.

That friend I mentioned in my first post shares office space with his uncle and pays no rent, and gets the benefit of having 5-6 solos to bounce questions off. It's been invaluable for him and has built up his referral network quite substantially. He's also very active in the local bar which has led to several referrals.

So try to connect with solos while you are in school and see if you can set up a similar arrangement. Solos are generally very approachable and, since so much of the legal profession looks down on them (see TLS and "shitlaw" comments), they are very open to aspiring lawyers that want to build a practice like they did.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You guys should look at the marketing thread - utlaw has some good posts in there.

[Easy-E]

Thanks, really appreciate the in-depth posts. I kinda forgot about flat fee work. I believe municipal stuff is typically flat fee as well, and I suspect I could drum up quite a bit of that. I think you have a solid plan. I would hope to do the same, though I need to get more info on things like court appointments. I know a number of lawyers in small/solo practice in the general area, so I hope referrals would be a big part of business at first.

I mentioned the program my school runs (it's basically a low-bono law firm in the school). I think it might be my best option, since it means a year of legal experience/mentorship and income so I can continue saving up. Also, the Professor said he refers out a ton of clients to former fellows, although he said he would do that for non-fellows as well. That said, these aren't clients you can charge $250 an hour or something, so who knows how viable that actually is. I think the extra year of experience/mentorship and income would be nice, plus I can defer my relatively small loans for a few.

That friend I mentioned in my first post shares office space with his uncle and pays no rent, and gets the benefit of having 5-6 solos to bounce questions off. It's been invaluable for him and has built up his referral network quite substantially. He's also very active in the local bar which has led to several referrals.

So try to connect with solos while you are in school and see if you can set up a similar arrangement. Solos are generally very approachable and, since so much of the legal profession looks down on them (see TLS and "shitlaw" comments), they are very open to aspiring lawyers that want to build a practice like they did.

The Foonberg book strongly recommends this type of situation, basically renting a space within another office. Paying no rent is great of course, but obviously that's a special case and work-for-rent has it's pros and cons. Having another attorneys nearby seems like the way to go though, for both advice and possible referrals.

I'm actually meeting with some attorneys I know soon to discuss solo practice. I've known some of them quite a while and have been extremely helpful in the past.

I'm combing through some other posts utlaw2007 has posted in, will link if I think they are worth a read and not just people shitting on anything but representing mega-corporations.

[Ohiobumpkin]

I then plan to refer every single PI case to a lawyer that went to my high school. Referral fee is 1/3rd of the attorney's recovery, so I would essentially get 1/9th of the settlement after doing no work. And then he will refer OVIs/other small criminal work/landlord disputes to me. And then establish relationships like that all over town. Have a guy I send probate work to. Another one that I send employer disputes to. Etc. This will be yet another part of my "stable" income stream.

I don't know which state you're in, but make sure you don't run afoul of any ethics rules here. I know that there are some states that have pretty asinine referral ethics rules on when, how, and how much a referring attorney can make off of the referred-to attorney's recovery.

[AVBucks4239]

I then plan to refer every single PI case to a lawyer that went to my high school. Referral fee is 1/3rd of the attorney's recovery, so I would essentially get 1/9th of the settlement after doing no work. And then he will refer OVIs/other small criminal work/landlord disputes to me. And then establish relationships like that all over town. Have a guy I send probate work to. Another one that I send employer disputes to. Etc. This will be yet another part of my "stable" income stream.

I don't know which state you're in, but make sure you don't run afoul of any ethics rules here. I know that there are some states that have pretty asinine referral ethics rules on when, how, and how much a referring attorney can make off of the referred-to attorney's recovery.

This is a good heads up for solos, but I already checked this and what I described is how referrals work in Ohio.

[NotMyRealName09]

I then plan to refer every single PI case to a lawyer that went to my high school. Referral fee is 1/3rd of the attorney's recovery, so I would essentially get 1/9th of the settlement after doing no work. And then he will refer OVIs/other small criminal work/landlord disputes to me. And then establish relationships like that all over town. Have a guy I send probate work to. Another one that I send employer disputes to. Etc. This will be yet another part of my "stable" income stream.

I don't know which state you're in, but make sure you don't run afoul of any ethics rules here. I know that there are some states that have pretty asinine referral ethics rules on when, how, and how much a referring attorney can make off of the referred-to attorney's recovery.

Yeah I see AVBucks responded that he's (she? sorry I don't know, don't be offended) in the clear, but this made the little dog-whistle go off in my brain, like---I, don't, think, you, can, do, that....but, not, sure....

[Easy-E]

Solo Practice University podcast has some good stuff in there. Some of it is meant for already established attorneys, but I've found a few of them enjoyable.

Also found the lawdevnull blog pretty informative. Guy is very open and honest about his experiences (uses his actual name). http://www.lawdevnull.com/

The Dean who runs the post-grad program at my school has assured me I'm locked into the program, which would mean a year of saving money, deferred loans and mentorship. So I'm like 99% sure I'll follow that path before an attempt at going solo. I also had a pretty in-depth discussion with a friend this weekend regarding a source of referrals. Obviously still a long way off, but it got me thinking about a number of potential sources for clients. From everything I've absorbed, referrals seem to be the undisputed king for garnering clients.

[r6_philly]

The most difficult part IMHO is lack inexperience, for business reasons. If you are established, you have client connections which can turn into business. When I meet people through networking try first question is always "what kind of law" the second is always "how long have you been doing it." Saying anything less than a couple of year is very hard to convince someone to part their cash. You have to get creative to convert some clients by making it too good a deal to not trust you. But the best clients will not come until you are established. Also lack of experience means taking 5 times longer to do anything. But you can't charge by the hour. Be aware of ethics rules about competence.

There will be growing pains, but that bar license powers a lot, with realistic expectations.

[LA Spring]

I literally stumbled onto a niche area that is financially rewarding. I am receiving several direct referrals every month. Per case income varies between $40k on up to $85k. At this point I could go it on my own. Just not sure….office, westlaw, assistant, insurance, etc.

[Anonymous User]

The most difficult part IMHO is lack inexperience, for business reasons. If you are established, you have client connections which can turn into business. When I meet people through networking try first question is always "what kind of law" the second is always "how long have you been doing it." Saying anything less than a couple of year is very hard to convince someone to part their cash. You have to get creative to convert some clients by making it too good a deal to not trust you. But the best clients will not come until you are established. Also lack of experience means taking 5 times longer to do anything. But you can't charge by the hour. Be aware of ethics rules about competence.

There will be growing pains, but that bar license powers a lot, with realistic expectations.

Yeah, charging hourly is gonna be impossible at first. Like you said, it's just gonna take you longer. I would also assume a good deal of your work might be from referrals that weren't worth it financially to other, more established attorneys. Giving someone an hourly rate that's like 5x what they make is going to scare the hell out of them. I'd definitely do flat fee(s) at first, but the whole fee-setting process is very fluid, and you're gonna nail the perfect price day one.

[Anonymous User]

I literally stumbled onto a niche area that is financially rewarding. I am receiving several direct referrals every month. Per case income varies between $40k on up to $85k. At this point I could go it on my own. Just not sure….office, westlaw, assistant, insurance, etc.

Also, just some thoughts, mostly parroted from Foonberg's book or other online sources..

Office - Look for an office share within another law firm if possible. Save $, and possibly get access to support staff/printers/etc. Just be clear about the extent of the arrangement and make it VERY clear to clients you are not part of the law firm.
Westlaw - lexis is cheaper (but it is lexis). Also, some state Bar associations provide FastCase for free apparently, but I have no experience with it
Assistant - Hiring staff is definitely not a day one or even year one concern for a new solo
Insurance - This doesn't seem to be as expensive as I expected. That isn't really helpful though, and I assume it depends on what you're doing and where.


Meeting with an attorney later today to discuss his practice, works in the geographic and legal area I would like to practice. He's in a fantasy football league with my dad and I, so I'm not stressed about it, but I've been reaching out to other attorneys to sit down and talk as well. Some have been very friendly, but I always feel strange saying "hey I would like to weasel in on your business how do I do so". I know as a new solo I really wouldn't be competition in any meaningful way for these guys, but still.

[Easy-E]

Both of those anon posts above are me, the naive OP. My bad.

[Easy-E]

I literally stumbled onto a niche area that is financially rewarding. I am receiving several direct referrals every month. Per case income varies between $40k on up to $85k. At this point I could go it on my own. Just not sure….office, westlaw, assistant, insurance, etc.

Curious, did you ever pull the trigger on this? Also, shamelessly bumping.