Starting career in NYC 1st Forum

[Anonymous User]

That's true... I'd caution people relying on COL calculators to make sure they aren't calculating in the cost of a car in NYC. It's prohibitively expensive to own a car in NYC, and there's no reason to own one. You'll come out ahead even if you take cabs or rent a zip car from time to time. Also, finding a place to permanently store your car will be a nightmare and steeply limit available housing, unless you store your car away from your apartment, in which case, you may as well rent a zip car.

Also, it's important to consider whether you'd be willing to have a roommate. If you are, I think that it's quite doable to find rent for at or under $2000/month in a desirable neighborhood, and have a reasonable amount of space. Also, enough young professionals in NYC have roommates that it should be pretty easy to find a good one (good as in financially dependable, probably relatively sane, possibly also gone for most of the day).

[Anonymous User]

Also, if you have loans COL calculators aren't going to be super relevant because they don't factor in a major fixed expense that's not going to change no matter where you live. NYC is definitely more expensive than secondary markets, but it's not that much more. COL calculators try to compare apples to apples, but you don't end up living the same in NYC as yoj would in, say, Houston or Pittsburgh. There are pros and cons to both lifestyles.

[Anonymous User]

Im the anon that referenced COL between Pitt and NYC, so thanks for these insights, I hadn't really thought about it in that way. I had seriously heavily relied on those COL calculators and had thought the difference was going to be so huge as to not make it worth it to live in NYC, but clearly I need to recalculate what my living would look like with some more specificity

[Anonymous User]

I guess as far as rent goes, the three big questions to ask yourself are

1. Are you okay with having one or two roommates?
2. Are you okay with living in a not-so-nice (probably dirty, compared to non-NYC cities) neighborhood? (This does not actually mean dangerous, most of the time. I live in a neighborhood that is considered to be not-quite-gentrified. I've never been in any danger, physical or other, and have a 20 minute commute to NYU. However, my suburban friends freak the fuck out when they come and visit and can't imagine living there. YMMV).
3. Are you okay with a 40 minute commute?

If you're okay with one or more of the above, you're going to be able to find reasonable rent, especially on a big law salary. If you're okay with more than one, you're definitely going to be able to find decent rent. I share a large space with three other people. I have more square footage than most of my non-NYC friends. I have a good commute and I pay around $1000 a month). The people living in the slightly smaller unit below me pay about $700 a month. (Goes without saying that you'd probably also be able to do these things and get even cheaper rent in a secondary market, but this is assuming you're interested in the upsides of living in NYC and want to find a way to make it affordable).

Oh, I guess also, if not owning property, or not being able to drive on a regular basis bothers you, NYC is not going to be a good fit.

[Anonymous User]

I guess as far as rent goes, the three big questions to as are

1. Are you okay with having one or two roommates?
2. Are you okay with living in a run-down, dirty neighborhood? (This does not actually mean dangerous, most of the time. I live in a neighborhood that is considered to be not-quite-gentrified. I've never been in any danger, and have a 20 minute commute to NYU. However, my suburban friends freak the fuck out when they come and visit and can't imagine living there. YMMV).
3. Are you okay with a 40 minute commute?

If you're okay with one or more of the above, you're going to be able to find reasonable rent, especially on a big law salary. If you're okay with more than one, you're definitely going to be able to find decent rent. I share a large space with three other people. I have more square footage than most of my non-NYC friends. I have a good commute and I pay around $1000 a month). The people living in the slightly smaller unit below me pay about $700 a month. (Goes without saying that you'd probably also be able to do these things and get even cheaper rent in a secondary market, but this is assuming you're interested in the upsides of living in NYC and want to find a way to make it affordable).

Oh, I guess also, if not owning property, or not being able to drive on a regular basis bothers you, NYC is not going to be a good fit.

Good points all around. I would probably be fine with roommates, and your situation sounds absolutely ideal if the rent gets down that low. I've been in suburbia my whole life though, so I have no idea how I will react several months in after drastically changing my surroundings like that.

[Anonymous User]

One thing is you know you will get an offer in New York. Small ones can be tricky with that.

[xael]

tag

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

One thing is you know you will get an offer in New York. Small ones can be tricky with that.

Also, there is no way to overstate the respect that lawyers in other cities give to someone who was an associate in NYC big law. I have had attorneys who have been practicing for years tell me that this type of job is "real high level lawyering." This is born out by the fact that associates have a lot of luck lateralling from NYC to pretty much any market.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I just read through your post a few times and I'm still looking for a compelling reason for you to go to nyc.

I ultimately want to end up making a career in my large but non-NYC/CHI/DC/LA home market I have offers from top firms in that market that do the work that want to do, but I also have some offers from more well known firms in NYC. The firms in NYC (for the most part) do that type of work at a higher level with bigger clients on more complex issues. I'm not a prestige type of person, but these firms have just about as much of that as you can get.

You're not a prestige guy which takes away the biggest reason for anyone to go to nyc, but even if you were, the prestige play is probably the "top firms" in your home market assuming your home market really is a major secondary (i assume that you're the atl/philly/boston/texas/sd anon) and you really do have an offer from one of the top firms in that market (king & spaulding or alston bird in atl, morgan lewis or drinker biddle in philly, etc). Bc you know why? Most lawyers don't look at vault rankings and can't distinguish big nyc firm #1 that they have vaguely heard of from big nyc firm #2 that they've vaguely heard of. You apparently have a chance to start your career at a firm in your target market that every single lawyer in your target market knows and respects and which probably has lateral associates and partners all over that city. To the attorneys you will be working with if you go to that market, that firm carries more weight than a big nyc firm.

My question is whether there is a benefit to beginning at one of these NYC name-brand firms? I know there are a lot of laterals in my home market from NYC, and those types of people tend to do quite well (i.e. making partner, etc.). However, I'm not sure whether this is because they get better training/reputations from those NYC firms, or whether I'm just trying to pull a trend out where there isn't one. Also, it's entirely possible that these people simply couldn't handle the more intense NYC experience, and just changed markets for a change of pace (rather than using it as a starting point to boost their career). Does anybody see a reason why I should hold off on heading "home" by taking a job in NYC for a couple years? Does starting in NYC help open up other options in secondary markets outside of local firms (i.e. academic, judicial - I know it's a long shot, in house, or government)?

As people all over this thread are saying, the better training/better work rationale really doesn't make a ton of sense especially if your non-nyc option is also big fish, big pond biglaw. Starting in nyc does open up in house and judicial options if you want to go in house with an nyc corporation or be on the bench in ny or nj, but if you want to be a judge or in-house in your target market, you need to make connections with lawyers/clients in your target market.

Which brings me to the reason why you should take nyc: if you want to be a new york attorney, or if you want to be a target market attorney but struck out in your target market while doing wildly well in nyc. Neither one of those sounds like it's true. Nyc is definitely a great opportunity for you, but you'll never have a better opportunity than now if you want a big-time career in your target city.

OP anon here. This is incredibly helpful, thank you.

FWIW (ignoring the misleading nature of rankings) the firm in my home market is V30, and pays NYC salary. It's also ranked well in the area where I want to specialize (T10 and only a couple spots behind where one of the NYC prestige firms high on my list is ranked). Debt isn't much of an issue (decent scholarship, had $ saved from work, and no UG debt), so my primary concern is career prospects.

From what I've seen here, even if NYC could have its benefits (i.e. everybody would know the firm(s)), it's probably not enough to make time away from home truly worth it. I'm looking for a big difference, not just a chance that it would help. My only other concern is prospects for clerking out of my home market top firm vs. NYC V10, but I'll take that up with my school's clerkships advisor.

I can absolutely see why a non-market rate home city with debt could change my decision. Thanks for all the posts, and keep them coming for any other nuances/suggestions!

Short version: the boost from NYC prestige/training/experience doesn't seem to be large enough to spend more time away from a top-of-the-market paying home firm.

[JamMasterJ]

Not sure if this has been said but you 100% need to use post-student loan contribution COL comparisons. If you're spending 30K on loans per year, NYC post tax post loan, you're looking at 70K. Post tax post loan for a lower income is going to be disproportionately lower than using a pretax pre anything calculation