Partner's Racially Insensitive Remarks Forum

[iliketurtles123]

OP: There were two of them & one of you. They were testing you. This is typical FBI & IRS tactic. Remain calm & keep your mouth shut as the test is ongoing. You're young, they're experienced--don't take the bait--and they probably prefer that you don't.

P.S. They know a lot more about you than you think. You work for them. All, or almost all, law firms use private investigators much more than you realize.

Lol.
I can't tell if serious because TLS

[A. Nony Mouse]

I am Middle Eastern, too, but because Americans are generally clueless they just guess that I am Native American or some other race all the time.

If I was a minority, I wonder if I could say things like this and ignore the blinding irony. Unbelievable.

I guess I'm blinded by the irony, because I can't figure out what you're talking about. What is so unbelievable to you?

I probably should have grabbed more of the original quote. The point of his post was that racist people were offending him. While he was complaining about racism, he makes a blanket statement about Americans. Pretty ironic to me.

American isn't a race, though.

[rpupkin]

I probably should have grabbed more of the original quote. The point of his post was that racist people were offending him. While he was complaining about racism, he makes a blanket statement about Americans. Pretty ironic to me.

Huh. But Americans are generally clueless about the ethnic backgrounds of immigrants. And I think most Americans--myself included--are ignorant about world geography. So you think this sort of generalization is "racism" against Americans? Interesting.

[metalgeek]

I am Middle Eastern, too, but because Americans are generally clueless they just guess that I am Native American or some other race all the time.

If I was a minority, I wonder if I could say things like this and ignore the blinding irony. Unbelievable.

I guess I'm blinded by the irony, because I can't figure out what you're talking about. What is so unbelievable to you?

I probably should have grabbed more of the original quote. The point of his post was that racist people were offending him. While he was complaining about racism, he makes a blanket statement about Americans. Pretty ironic to me.

American isn't a race, though.

That's a distinction without meaning here. He's complaining about ignorance and exposes a similarly ignorant side while doing so.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Okay, then I'll cosign rpupkin's response. I kind of figure someone who's been in this country for a while can tell whether or not people here generally get where he's from.

[metalgeek]

I probably should have grabbed more of the original quote. The point of his post was that racist people were offending him. While he was complaining about racism, he makes a blanket statement about Americans. Pretty ironic to me.

Huh. But Americans are generally clueless about the ethnic backgrounds of immigrants. And I think most Americans--myself included--are ignorant about world geography. So you think of this kind of generalization as "racism" against Americans? Interesting.

Doesn't matter if there are some Americans that are. It is still a generalization that if held to the same standard we hold idiots like Donald Trump, it is an ignorant statement. Just as an example, Trump's statement about Mexicans was literally true. There are some rapists and some thieves that come across the border, it is literally true. But it's still a stupid thing to say. I just think that saying something about a group of people, or religion, or a country, even if it is often true, is not a good thing to say - particularly when you are talking about how you are a victim of ignorance.

[metalgeek]

Okay, then I'll cosign rpupkin's response. I kind of figure someone who's been in this country for a while can tell whether or not people here generally get where he's from.

Suddenly anecdotal evidence is OK on TLS?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Do we usually require people to provide scientific evidence here when talking about their lives? I missed that.

[rpupkin]

Okay, then I'll cosign rpupkin's response. I kind of figure someone who's been in this country for a while can tell whether or not people here generally get where he's from.

Suddenly anecdotal evidence is OK on TLS?

Suddenly? TLS is almost nothing but anecdotal evidence. Of course it's "OK"

And if you really don't appreciate the difference between a racist generalization and other forms of generalization, then I doubt we can have a productive discussion here.

[metalgeek]

Okay, then I'll cosign rpupkin's response. I kind of figure someone who's been in this country for a while can tell whether or not people here generally get where he's from.

Suddenly anecdotal evidence is OK on TLS?

Suddenly? TLS is almost nothing but anecdotal evidence. Of course it's "OK"

And if you really don't appreciate the difference between a racist generalization and other forms of generalization, then I doubt we can have a productive discussion here.

If, as in OP's story, he had just said let's nuke Iran and get rid of them. You think that's a meaningful difference between saying "Arabs" or "Iranians"? I appreciate the difference between racist and other generalizations, but here, I think the amount of ignorance required to make such comments varies very little.

[Desert Fox]

[metalgeek]

There is a pretty big difference between a benign generalization and saying "NUKE THE CAMEL FUCKERS BRAH!" Lets not play dubm TLs

Calling a nation of people clueless, while not an extreme generalization, is worthy of a higher degree of scrutiny when you're complaining about that nation's ignorance level. Just seemed ironic - that's all I'm saying.

[seashellstandard]

I am Middle Eastern, too, but because Americans are generally clueless they just guess that I am Native American or some other race all the time.

If I was a minority, I wonder if I could say things like this and ignore the blinding irony. Unbelievable.

Americans are generally clueless as to what a Middle Eastern person can look like. I'm living proof. I've been guessed as Native, Hispanic, French (?!?) and a dozen other guesses that are not Middle Eastern. And guess what: I look totally like most people from my country. What I meant by my comment is that if you knew what people in my specific country looked like, you'd say "yeah, she's from there" but Americans arent familiar with the physical features of the people of my country, so they always guess something else. I don't blame people for it, I use the words "generally clueless" as in: they just don't know.

My comment in context was related to why people at the public interest office felt free to say racially charged things, even when I was around: they did not know I was Middle Eastern, which related to OP's post.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I'm sorry this happened to you. As an AA male currently working in biglaw, and a pretty activist black person at that I would just bite the bullet and not respond at all. It pains me to say that, but as a minority you really have little choice and have to pick your battles carefully. Definitely don't confront the people directly.

If you choose to do anything, go to HR. They will handle the situation appropriately, but it will also involve confronting the partner in question. These guys are partners, and will probably talk about you to others. Then all of sudden when you turn in work-product, they will say vague statements like "not consistent with 1st year expectations" and when asked about you in general they will say I really like the guy but he's "not a good fit" and then slowly push you out. That said, this process will take two years in which case you will probably be already begging to get out of biglaw for independent reasons so maybe its not that bad anyway.

Are you going to be working with these guys? If not, then let it go. How bad do you feel about the comments? If really big deal then go to HR. If not, then let it go and live to fight another day. I've heard a couple racist comments about black people (not by partners) in my time in the workplace and chose to let it go. There are scenarios when i will not let it go and go to HR (like if i worked for the partners in question and thought they were giving me a hard time because i'm black or they said the N word). Bottom line--Only way to 100% avoid racist assholes is to set up your own shop (which i plan to do one day) and not hire/tolerate racist assholes.

[smile0751]

what I was told in my business employment law class was to keep a list of what was said, when, by who, and anyone else who heard or was witness. You may never need the list and you may never show it to anyone, but you'll be happy to have it if you ever need it (I.e. The comments turn into actions, class action law suit, need to go to HR, etc).

[snapdragon25]

Thanks to everyone who posted their thoughts. I'm a raging feminazi, but I experienced some sexism when I was a paralegal and didn't say anything about it. I really think that even if you don't confront the person saying hurtful things, just being a woman/racial minority/LGBT person/other underrepresented minority and doing great work can help the people you work with see members of your community as multi-dimensional people. When you meet people outside the firm, or when someone comes across your firm bio, or sees you walk down the street in a suit, you're helping other people see more people of color in professional roles. It may seem cowardly not to say anything, but it's an extremely brave thing to be a lawyer of color.

[84651846190]

White hetero male here:

I'm curious. For URMs and other underrepresented people ITT (and also women, I guess?): is it more offensive when 1) someone says derogatory things about your race or whatever other group you belong to or when 2) someone insults you personally based on your voice/looks/weight/intelligence, etc.? Just wondering, because people have insulted my looks/weight/intelligence in biglaw and it's definitely hurt, but I've never let it take over my life or anything. I've never really understood how racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. could be worse than some of the personal insults people routinely level at each other. I mean, it's not like you can control what race, gender, sexual orientation, or other immutable characteristic you are. If people make insulting comments against these, can't you just dismiss them as ignorant and move on (as long as it doesn't negatively impact your job in a tangible way like lack of advancement or getting fired)?

[to116]

White hetero male here:

I'm curious. For URMs and other underrepresented people ITT (and also women, I guess?): is it more offensive when 1) someone says derogatory things about your race or whatever other group you belong to or when 2) someone insults you personally based on your voice/looks/weight/intelligence, etc.? Just wondering, because people have insulted my looks/weight/intelligence in biglaw and it's definitely hurt, but I've never let it take over my life or anything. I've never really understood how racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. could be worse than some of the personal insults people routinely level at each other. I mean, it's not like you can control what race, gender, sexual orientation, or other immutable characteristic you are. If people make insulting comments against these, can't you just dismiss them as ignorant and move on (as long as it doesn't negatively impact your job in a tangible way like lack of advancement or getting fired)?

the main difference is that insensitive remarks about height or weight are not backed by institutionally discriminatory practices. No one told you can't get married because you're short, or your brain is smaller cause you're fat. No one has thought to fire you over being short and it's not like growing up short you knew what you were getting into because it marked you for discrimination later on. So yes, if all things were equal, making comments about your height and your weight versus your race or sexual orientation are identical, but when the entire system supports (either tacitly or directly) this discrimination it becomes a completely different issue.

[Anonymous User]

Speak with your law schools Career Services office.

[rpupkin]

Speak with your law schools Career Services office.

Interesting advice. What do you think this will accomplish? (I'm not asking rhetorically; I'm genuinely curious.)

[DJ JD]

Speak with your law schools Career Services office.

Interesting advice. What do you think this will accomplish? (I'm not asking rhetorically; I'm genuinely curious.)

They'll submit the info to the NYT, interview with all the major networks, contact a publishing company to write and publish a biography for OP. And then they'll turn the info over to the authorities. OP then sues, gets a $17 Billion judgement, which survives on appeal, and lives happily ever after.


But really....

Absolutely nothing but get itself buried. You think CSO's gonna stop inviting firm X that hires 7 of school's graduates every year? No, at best, they'd tell the firm's recruiting department about the incident, have crazy partner not come to recruiting outings anymore, and move one. More likely, CSO would just ignore it and/or sweep it under the rug.

Law firm rankings are too important.

[Anonymous User]

Speak with your law schools Career Services office.

Interesting advice. What do you think this will accomplish? (I'm not asking rhetorically; I'm genuinely curious.)

They'll submit the info to the NYT, interview with all the major networks, contact a publishing company to write and publish a biography for OP. And then they'll turn the info over to the authorities. OP then sues, gets a $17 Billion judgement, which survives on appeal, and lives happily ever after.


But really....

Absolutely nothing but get itself buried. You think CSO's gonna stop inviting firm X that hires 7 of school's graduates every year? No, at best, they'd tell the firm's recruiting department about the incident, have crazy partner not come to recruiting outings anymore, and move one. More likely, CSO would just ignore it and/or sweep it under the rug.

Law firm rankings are too important.

True that. At HLS a few years ago a student complained about a prominent partner at a firm getting handsy at a reception. OCS proceded to tell the firm about it using that student's name, and the student got an email from another prominent partner explaining why they misinterpreted what happened.

[Anonymous User]

I'm sorry this happened to you, OP. What an uncomfortable situation to be in.

But I'm glad that you brought this up because reading through this thread makes me feel better about the times when I've encountered bigoted/ignorant remarks from higher ups and kept silent. I'm Asian American and social justice-minded so I hate myself a little when I don't speak up. But it seems like the TLS consensus is that unless you want to initiate your own career suicide, it's best to not challenge inappropriate remarks (within reason - not going to let it go if someone is directly trying to discriminate against me, obviously).

[jimmythecatdied6]

White hetero male here:

I'm curious. For URMs and other underrepresented people ITT (and also women, I guess?): is it more offensive when 1) someone says derogatory things about your race or whatever other group you belong to or when 2) someone insults you personally based on your voice/looks/weight/intelligence, etc.? Just wondering, because people have insulted my looks/weight/intelligence in biglaw and it's definitely hurt, but I've never let it take over my life or anything. I've never really understood how racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. could be worse than some of the personal insults people routinely level at each other. I mean, it's not like you can control what race, gender, sexual orientation, or other immutable characteristic you are. If people make insulting comments against these, can't you just dismiss them as ignorant and move on (as long as it doesn't negatively impact your job in a tangible way like lack of advancement or getting fired)?

the main difference is that insensitive remarks about height or weight are not backed by institutionally discriminatory practices. No one told you can't get married because you're short, or your brain is smaller cause you're fat. No one has thought to fire you over being short and it's not like growing up short you knew what you were getting into because it marked you for discrimination later on. So yes, if all things were equal, making comments about your height and your weight versus your race or sexual orientation are identical, but when the entire system supports (either tacitly or directly) this discrimination it becomes a completely different issue.

Apparently you aren't very familiar with the fact many jobs have height/weight requirements... But go on

[Desert Fox]