Associate at Asian Offices of US Biglaw Firm Taking Questions Forum

[Jchance]

Thanks for running this thread.

Can you give a breakdown of which language skills are desirable? Obviously Korean, Japanese and Chinese but what about Tagalog, Vietnamese, Khmer, etc. Alternatively, can you list which countries have the most hiring needs/work?

[inter-associate]

Thanks for running this thread.

Can you give a breakdown of which language skills are desirable? Obviously Korean, Japanese and Chinese but what about Tagalog, Vietnamese, Khmer, etc. Alternatively, can you list which countries have the most hiring needs/work?

I'd say Korean, Japanese and Chinese are about it. All legal work in the Philippines is conducted in English, so tagalog isnt needed. The other languages can help you, and I know people out here who have built practices on less common languages, but as a junior you probably won't use them very much.

Hong Kong/PRC will probably always have the most hiring needs, but a good degree, experience and stellar language skills could get you in the door of firms in most countries.

[Anonymous User]

I know you briefly answered this question before but can you comment on how HK cost of living adjustments compare to London's? Here's what we have for London from another thread (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... n&start=50):

I'm at US firm in London right now, and I used to work at a Magic Circle. The following COLA information might be useful:

Freshfields: £25,000 (GBP)
Linklaters: $60,000
Cravath: $109,000
Latham: $100,000
Simpson: $66,000
Kirkland: $100,000

[inter-associate]

I know you briefly answered this question before but can you comment on how HK cost of living adjustments compare to London's? Here's what we have for London from another thread (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... n&start=50):

I'm at US firm in London right now, and I used to work at a Magic Circle. The following COLA information might be useful:

Freshfields: £25,000 (GBP)
Linklaters: $60,000
Cravath: $109,000
Latham: $100,000
Simpson: $66,000
Kirkland: $100,000

I don't want to go into specifics but HK ranges from 60000 to 85000, with some firms going higher for families. There are outliers each direction, but if you're offered something in that range then you are getting market. As I mentioned earlier, it seems like the better firms are on the lower end of the scale.

[ozymandius]

Thanks for running this thread.

Can you give a breakdown of which language skills are desirable? Obviously Korean, Japanese and Chinese but what about Tagalog, Vietnamese, Khmer, etc. Alternatively, can you list which countries have the most hiring needs/work?

I'd say Korean, Japanese and Chinese are about it. All legal work in the Philippines is conducted in English, so tagalog isnt needed. The other languages can help you, and I know people out here who have built practices on less common languages, but as a junior you probably won't use them very much.

Hong Kong/PRC will probably always have the most hiring needs, but a good degree, experience and stellar language skills could get you in the door of firms in most countries.

There are some practices where other Asian languages could be a real asset in marketing--mainly I'm thinking of project finance and languages like Vietnamese or Bahasa. Neither of these languages can overcome weak credentials otherwise, but it can definitely make a borderline candidate more attractive.

My sense is that Chinese is only valuable if you're a native speaker, because there are many highly-credentialed lawyers who are fully bilingual. Same seems to be true with Korean. With Japanese you can get cut a lot more slack. Truly bilingual Japanese lawyers are rare and highly valuable.

[ozymandius]

Thanks for running this thread.

Can you give a breakdown of which language skills are desirable? Obviously Korean, Japanese and Chinese but what about Tagalog, Vietnamese, Khmer, etc. Alternatively, can you list which countries have the most hiring needs/work?

On countries with the most hiring needs/work, hard to say for sure, but from my perspective I would say Singapore. The problem is that you have to live in Singapore (could be a lot worse, of course). HK is a large, mature market, and there will always be a steady diet of legal jobs there. Japan is smaller, but because Japanese language skills are in shorter supply (and because there is a pervasive belief that there's something wrong with the Japanese economy), the pool of qualified and interested candidates is smaller as well. There's very little room to make partner in Japan (compared to SG or HK), but there's much more room to make counsel and stick around forever.

[champloo]

Hello, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm primarily interested in Korea, but any insight you can give me on working as a lawyer in Asia would be helpful to me.

1) How do foreign offices of US firms differ from local offices of Asian firms (e.g. O'Melveny & Myers vs Kim & Chang, both in Seoul)?

2) How important is native fluency? Is the goal of working at an Asian office of a biglaw firm unrealistic if one does not speak any Asian languages? I have been studying Korean for about five years and I am somewhat fluent but not at the native level.

3) What can a student currently in law school do to prepare for this kind of career path (working in an Asian country)? What kind of jobs should I be looking for during or right out of law school?

4) Is there room to make partner in Korea?

5) What is the workplace culture like? Is the work environment very hierarchical? How are you treated by your superiors? Are the people who run these offices generally westerners or Asians?

6) Do westerners face issues of racism in the workplace? Is it harder to network and develop client relationships if you are not ethnically Korean/Japanese/Chinese/etc.?

Any other information you can give me specifically about working in Korea or the current state of the Korean market would be helpful.

Thanks!

Interested in this as well

[ForgotMyPassword]

Do you see major firms moving into India en masse anytime soon, besides Baker and the few magic circle firms there now? Also related - is the typical path of working in the US for a few years then lateraling to a firm there even an option for India, or do you need to be working at one of those firms to even have a shot.

Thanks for doing this, very informative!

[ozymandius]

Hello, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm primarily interested in Korea, but any insight you can give me on working as a lawyer in Asia would be helpful to me.

1) How do foreign offices of US firms differ from local offices of Asian firms (e.g. O'Melveny & Myers vs Kim & Chang, both in Seoul)?

2) How important is native fluency? Is the goal of working at an Asian office of a biglaw firm unrealistic if one does not speak any Asian languages? I have been studying Korean for about five years and I am somewhat fluent but not at the native level.

3) What can a student currently in law school do to prepare for this kind of career path (working in an Asian country)? What kind of jobs should I be looking for during or right out of law school?

4) Is there room to make partner in Korea?

5) What is the workplace culture like? Is the work environment very hierarchical? How are you treated by your superiors? Are the people who run these offices generally westerners or Asians?

6) Do westerners face issues of racism in the workplace? Is it harder to network and develop client relationships if you are not ethnically Korean/Japanese/Chinese/etc.?

Any other information you can give me specifically about working in Korea or the current state of the Korean market would be helpful.

Thanks!

To begin, I just want to be very clear that I don't work in Korea and I have very little direct experience with the Korean market. That said, I'm happy to try to answer.

1) Second and third hand sources tell me that the work culture (both hours and other expectations) at the big SK firms are horrific, even compared with the home offices of US firms. Not sure if it's still true, but a friend who worked at K&C ten years ago or so said that it was a six-day work week every week, with 12 hour days as the minimum. He generally worked 7 days a week, averaging about 75 hours. He was able to last two years, which scares me. Local offices of international (e.g., US) firms will generally be much more laid back than this, and much more focused on business development. K&C doesn't pitch for work--they're so connected with every company in Korea that they're in the position to be turning down work, usually (I'm sure many of their associates wish they would turn down a bit more of it).

You've asked about culture separately, so I'll talk about the differences on that front when I get to that question.

2) Probably pretty important in Korea, particularly because there are a ton of truly bilingual Koreans who grew up in America. If you're white and you speak Korean passably well, though, that's probably still kind of "cool" to Koreans and might be considered useful as a marketing tool.

3) Come to the country where you're trying to end up as much as possible, and try to have lunch/coffee with as many attorneys working there as possible. The legal markets are all small in Asia, and people will generally be interested in meeting someone who says he or she is interested in working in Asia long term. I meet with people like this all the time.

4) Yeah, probably, but if you're a student that's far enough away that the state of the market now isn't really relevant to your partnership chances. Korea in particular is hard to predict because firms have just begun opening offices there. To be clear (and unscientifically), I don't think there's much of a chance for a non-native speaker to make partner at a place like K&C.

5) Korean workplaces are very hierarchical. Asian offices of foreign firms, on the other hand, are typically less hierarchical than mothership offices back in the states--generally, there just aren't enough people for a rigid hierarchy to be workable. Drinking is a huge part of work culture in Korea (as it is elsewhere in Asia, but more so in Korea from what I've heard). Getting blackout drunk with colleagues is not just OK, it's required. Expectations re: sexual harassment and personal boundaries are different from the US--if that sort of thing matters to you, you might find working in Asia to be alienating at times.

6) If you're white, not really. At the very least, for every disadvantage you might face, you will be afforded advantages and privileges that more than outweigh. Other races would likely tell a different tale, although I wouldn't expect there to be any issues at an office of a US firm.

[ozymandius]

Do you see major firms moving into India en masse anytime soon, besides Baker and the few magic circle firms there now? Also related - is the typical path of working in the US for a few years then lateraling to a firm there even an option for India, or do you need to be working at one of those firms to even have a shot.

Thanks for doing this, very informative!

To the first question, no. India is guarding its legal market against foreign encroachment quite jealously. I don't see relaxation of the prohibition on foreign firms happening to any appreciable degree any time soon. The senior partners of the major Indian firms are absurdly wealthy (they take home wayyyyyy more money than similarly senior partners at almost any western firm) and deeply entrenched. They're unlikely to surrender their meal ticket.

Can't really say for sure on your second question. In general working abroad is probably a good idea because it will give you more options long term. It would be extremely difficult to lateral from an Indian firm to American biglaw, for example, and only somewhat less difficult to go to an MC firm. I'll be straight with you--I've worked with a few very major Indian firms and their work product was always abysmal. It would take a lot for a candidate from one of those firms to convince me that he or she had been properly trained.

[Anonymous User]

Hi thanks for doing this! TLS really misses out on Asia information.

1) How common are Asian-Americans working at your firms or firms in general (esp. in HK/Singapore/CH)?

2) How is the salary discrepancy between blah blah US-based firm vs. blah-blah US-based firm in Asia?

Thanks again!

[heyarnold]

Hello there, thank you very much for offering your advice to the tls world. I'm a rising 1L in a west coast city that is strongly connected to Asia. I'm a non-native Mandarin speaker who majored in Chinese during college and has a master's in Asian Studies at an IR-focused school.

1A.) I'm wondering whether you can elaborate on the preferred coursework for 2L's and 3L's who are strongly interested in working in, specifically, China? Besides transactional/business law, do you see some other practice areas emerging in U.S. satellite offices in Beijing/Shanghai in 5-10 years or so? For example, technology/start-ups, cybersecurity, environmental law, etc.. are these legitimate alternative pathways a 2L can take in order to "get to" China?

1B) Personally, I don't have a lick of private sector experience/business in either work/school... what are some practice areas in firms over there that an associate doesn't need a whole lot of previous experience in / could learn on-the-go in his/her first years?


2A.) How important is reading/writing ability in Mandarin for a non-native student from the U.S compared to oral skills? Are associates expected to read legal documents and contracts in Chinese, and write up memos in Chinese?.. or is it more so the case that giving presentations, conversing with clients, being able to charm at a dinner gathering is mostly what is expected?

3. How, at all, do you think the TPP will affect the US-Asia legal sector? Will job opportunities for prospective associates rise throughout Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, and most interestingly in China given that the US economic presence / international trade will considerably increase in future? This question can perhaps tie into my first..

Thanks in advance! This is exactly the type of thread I've been trying to find for a while now

[Anonymous User]

how do you suggest getting a sense of whether a firm's asian office is a satellite vs. a more established office?

as a follow up, which firms have well developed corporate practices in hk and singapore?

thanks so much for your advice so far!

[Anonymous User]

Hello, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm primarily interested in Korea, but any insight you can give me on working as a lawyer in Asia would be helpful to me.

1) How do foreign offices of US firms differ from local offices of Asian firms (e.g. O'Melveny & Myers vs Kim & Chang, both in Seoul)?

2) How important is native fluency? Is the goal of working at an Asian office of a biglaw firm unrealistic if one does not speak any Asian languages? I have been studying Korean for about five years and I am somewhat fluent but not at the native level.

3) What can a student currently in law school do to prepare for this kind of career path (working in an Asian country)? What kind of jobs should I be looking for during or right out of law school?

4) Is there room to make partner in Korea?

5) What is the workplace culture like? Is the work environment very hierarchical? How are you treated by your superiors? Are the people who run these offices generally westerners or Asians?

6) Do westerners face issues of racism in the workplace? Is it harder to network and develop client relationships if you are not ethnically Korean/Japanese/Chinese/etc.?

Any other information you can give me specifically about working in Korea or the current state of the Korean market would be helpful.

Thanks!

To begin, I just want to be very clear that I don't work in Korea and I have very little direct experience with the Korean market. That said, I'm happy to try to answer.

1) Second and third hand sources tell me that the work culture (both hours and other expectations) at the big SK firms are horrific, even compared with the home offices of US firms. Not sure if it's still true, but a friend who worked at K&C ten years ago or so said that it was a six-day work week every week, with 12 hour days as the minimum. He generally worked 7 days a week, averaging about 75 hours. He was able to last two years, which scares me. Local offices of international (e.g., US) firms will generally be much more laid back than this, and much more focused on business development. K&C doesn't pitch for work--they're so connected with every company in Korea that they're in the position to be turning down work, usually (I'm sure many of their associates wish they would turn down a bit more of it).

You've asked about culture separately, so I'll talk about the differences on that front when I get to that question.

2) Probably pretty important in Korea, particularly because there are a ton of truly bilingual Koreans who grew up in America. If you're white and you speak Korean passably well, though, that's probably still kind of "cool" to Koreans and might be considered useful as a marketing tool.

3) Come to the country where you're trying to end up as much as possible, and try to have lunch/coffee with as many attorneys working there as possible. The legal markets are all small in Asia, and people will generally be interested in meeting someone who says he or she is interested in working in Asia long term. I meet with people like this all the time.

4) Yeah, probably, but if you're a student that's far enough away that the state of the market now isn't really relevant to your partnership chances. Korea in particular is hard to predict because firms have just begun opening offices there. To be clear (and unscientifically), I don't think there's much of a chance for a non-native speaker to make partner at a place like K&C.

5) Korean workplaces are very hierarchical. Asian offices of foreign firms, on the other hand, are typically less hierarchical than mothership offices back in the states--generally, there just aren't enough people for a rigid hierarchy to be workable. Drinking is a huge part of work culture in Korea (as it is elsewhere in Asia, but more so in Korea from what I've heard). Getting blackout drunk with colleagues is not just OK, it's required. Expectations re: sexual harassment and personal boundaries are different from the US--if that sort of thing matters to you, you might find working in Asia to be alienating at times.

6) If you're white, not really. At the very least, for every disadvantage you might face, you will be afforded advantages and privileges that more than outweigh. Other races would likely tell a different tale, although I wouldn't expect there to be any issues at an office of a US firm.

Have summered at a top Korean firm. Can confirm this is pretty accurate.

Just to add a little, it used to be the case that American JDs were rare enough in the country that the lack of Korean language skills were a non-issue, but it is becoming exponentially more difficult for a non-native Korean speaker to break into the Korean market as there has been a huge increase in the number of Korean/English bilingual JDs in recent years - a trend which will only intensify in the future. The local firms have hired ethnic Koreans almost exclusively recently to fill their US-trained lawyer needs, and from glancing at firm websites it seems that even the Seoul offices of US firms are staffed by Koreans or Korean-Americans for the most part. Now, this doesn't necessarily reveal a causation (it could just be that not many foreigners applied in the first place), but take from it what you will.

If you are not Korean and want a realistic shot at working in Korea, you should have professional proficiency in Korean or bring something to the table that other Korean candidates don't (e.g. a third language, non-US jurisdictional expertise, niche practice knowledge). From what I've heard, the pay is competitive with US firms (although Korean firms tend to be very opaque regarding compensation and negotiate on individual basis) but the hours are comparable to NY biglaw also.

[ozymandius]

Hi thanks for doing this! TLS really misses out on Asia information.

1) How common are Asian-Americans working at your firms or firms in general (esp. in HK/Singapore/CH)?

2) How is the salary discrepancy between blah blah US-based firm vs. blah-blah US-based firm in Asia?

Thanks again!

1) It's quite common in HK and Singapore. Probably a little less so in BJ/SH but I would guess not uncommon.

2) If you're asking whether US firms pay differently in their Asian offices, the answer is that generally US JDs in Asian offices make more money because they receive ex-pat packages. There's a pretty broad range on these, but at the upper end it can be in the range of $100,000 extra. If you were asking something else please let me know.

[ozymandius]

Hello there, thank you very much for offering your advice to the tls world. I'm a rising 1L in a west coast city that is strongly connected to Asia. I'm a non-native Mandarin speaker who majored in Chinese during college and has a master's in Asian Studies at an IR-focused school.

1A.) I'm wondering whether you can elaborate on the preferred coursework for 2L's and 3L's who are strongly interested in working in, specifically, China? Besides transactional/business law, do you see some other practice areas emerging in U.S. satellite offices in Beijing/Shanghai in 5-10 years or so? For example, technology/start-ups, cybersecurity, environmental law, etc.. are these legitimate alternative pathways a 2L can take in order to "get to" China?

1B) Personally, I don't have a lick of private sector experience/business in either work/school... what are some practice areas in firms over there that an associate doesn't need a whole lot of previous experience in / could learn on-the-go in his/her first years?


2A.) How important is reading/writing ability in Mandarin for a non-native student from the U.S compared to oral skills? Are associates expected to read legal documents and contracts in Chinese, and write up memos in Chinese?.. or is it more so the case that giving presentations, conversing with clients, being able to charm at a dinner gathering is mostly what is expected?

3. How, at all, do you think the TPP will affect the US-Asia legal sector? Will job opportunities for prospective associates rise throughout Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, and most interestingly in China given that the US economic presence / international trade will considerably increase in future? This question can perhaps tie into my first..

Thanks in advance! This is exactly the type of thread I've been trying to find for a while now

1A) I would add investigations to your list. I don't know what kind of coursework there is on it, though. Maybe white-collar crime? You'd want to learn about anti-corruption laws like the FCPA and the UK Bribery Act. Plus money-laundering laws and sanctions. Anything regulatory, too. Personally I have less than 0 desire to do this kind of work but it's big business all over Asia.

1B) Everything. Don't worry about that.

2A) Can't be sure, but given that there's no shortage of native-bilingual speakers, I doubt anyone's going to rely on a non-native speaker for Chinese-language drafting. Being able to speak/understand Mandarin would be useful for BD purposes though.

3) No real way to predict this, but I don't think it's likely to change much for the legal market. Overall economic conditions in the region will be much more determinative.

[ozymandius]

how do you suggest getting a sense of whether a firm's asian office is a satellite vs. a more established office?

as a follow up, which firms have well developed corporate practices in hk and singapore?

thanks so much for your advice so far!

1) Just poke around and see how many attorneys they have. Also look at Chambers rankings.

2) A bunch, but I'm not so qualified to tell you which ones are good and which are not. Maybe the guy/gal who started this thread would be able to answer.

[screwtapeletters]

Checking in for further reference. Thank you so much for doing this! Really appreciate it.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for running this thread!

Which one would be better - directly apply to Asian offices or start working at the US offices and lateral to Asian offices? Do Asian offices hire summer associates? If so, is it a skype interview?

Thanks!

[ozymandius]

Thanks for running this thread!

Which one would be better - directly apply to Asian offices or start working at the US offices and lateral to Asian offices? Do Asian offices hire summer associates? If so, is it a skype interview?

Thanks!

Some Asian offices hire summer associates, though many do not (and even those that do just hire a handful at most). A few will come to OCI (either directly or by proxy, with someone from a US office interviewing on their behalf). For smaller offices, you need to apply directly--just pick a partner who does something you're interested in and send your materials directly (and be sure to say exactly what it is that you're looking for). You might get a skype interview, or you might get a quasi-screener in the US. Some sort of skype or phone interview will probably be a part of the process at some point, though it might not be the first step.

Conventional wisdom is that for almost all kinds of work it is better to work in a big US office like NYC for a few years before coming to Asia. You'll get more experience and work on a broader range of matters. In general, you need to be able to take on more responsibility in Asia--someone who needs to be trained to do everything (read: almost everyone when they're just starting) often just isn't terribly useful. Moreover, in most Asian law practices you'll spend more of your time doing business development and administrative stuff than you ever spent in NYC (when I worked in NYC I never did any business development at all--it just wasn't part of my job). There's nothing wrong with doing BD (in fact, I personally like it most of the time), but you won't generally be building any useful experience while doing it. Same goes for stuff like billing (except for the part about liking it). Better to get a few years of experience elsewhere first so that when the work does come, you'll be ready just to roll with it.

That said, some people do start in Asia, and it can work out just fine. I would recommend doing that only if you're quite sure you want to be in Asia long-term, or if you're at one of the few large, "hub" practices there (the first that comes to mind is MoFo Tokyo, which is one of that firm's most profitable and powerful offices). If you start at a small Asian satellite office, chances are good that you won't build skills that will give you much value on the US job market, should you need to return.

[auds1008]

Thanks for doing this!

Any idea what the market is like for patent lawyers?

[ozymandius]

Thanks for doing this!

Any idea what the market is like for patent lawyers?

Don't have a great sense of it. If you're in patent litigation, you'll probably need to branch out a bit, with the caveat that disputes positions are relatively limited in general. MoFo Tokyo had a pretty big chunk of the big spate of Apple patent litigation work a few years back, but in general it looks like the patent lit wave has if not broken at least crested.

If you do some sort of transactional IP work, I just don't really know enough to say. I'm sure there are positions but it would be niche.

Sorry I can't be more helpful--if you're willing to share more background and what you're looking to achieve I'd give it another shot.

[auds1008]

Thanks for doing this!

Any idea what the market is like for patent lawyers?

Don't have a great sense of it. If you're in patent litigation, you'll probably need to branch out a bit, with the caveat that disputes positions are relatively limited in general. MoFo Tokyo had a pretty big chunk of the big spate of Apple patent litigation work a few years back, but in general it looks like the patent lit wave has if not broken at least crested.

If you do some sort of transactional IP work, I just don't really know enough to say. I'm sure there are positions but it would be niche.

Sorry I can't be more helpful--if you're willing to share more background and what you're looking to achieve I'd give it another shot.

I do do patent litigation and because of what you said, and what I've heard from others on the subject matter, I really need to branch out... just not sure how. Not exactly stoked about restarting, etc.

[Anonymous User]

international student here about to start my first year at a v25 firm major market office in the states, if my h1b visa lottery doesn't work out next year and I lateral to my firm's asian (possibly HK) office, what's the chance of lateraling back to the states? I'm in the corporate group. Thank you

[ozymandius]

international student here about to start my first year at a v25 firm major market office in the states, if my h1b visa lottery doesn't work out next year and I lateral to my firm's asian (possibly HK) office, what's the chance of lateraling back to the states? I'm in the corporate group. Thank you

I've heard about this happening to a few people recently. It's hard to predict, but I personally can't see much reason why you wouldn't be able to go back unless you proved to be too valuable in Asia or something. Probably best to go to HK if you can--seems like that's the most mature legal market in Asia for corporate work.