Cravath bills summers out at $295 Forum

[lacrossebrother]

If I'm IC, I get tell the ceo that we had fucking Cravath handling shit. If something goes wrong, they can't be upset with me. And yet im getting a break on their normal billing rates. I think that 4 semesters of law school might differentiate you from the "blind know nothing clueless westlawing" you say is bad...but making distinctions isn't an important skillset in our line of work so idk that could be a good argument

[cookiejar1]

I know $295/hr sounds like a lot of money but just think about how much investment banks are making per deal. Just google M&A advisory fees and calculate how many hours that your whole group would have to bill to even match half of that. If anything we should be laughing at law firms for charging so little.

This is how WLRK makes so much right? They get a % fee.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/ ... for-deals/ yeah but it's unclear if they bill like this for every client. wlrk associates for what its worth still keep track of their billables

[lacrossebrother]

Should I switch to 1 inch indents?

[cookiejar1]

Should I switch to 1 inch indents?

Spend an hour looking at all precedent docs, send an request out to the whole firm with the client matter no. attached so that they too can hop on the bill train, check the margins of everything you get back. End up not switching. Bill the client $295.

[thesealocust]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that the billing system doesn't hold up well generally under close scrutiny. It's probably the worst form of fee structure, except for all the other ones?

But it's all "O.K." because half the fun of biglaw is cost insensitivity. You certainly hear grumblings about fees, summers/first years billing out, etc. - but on real 'bet the company' litigation or major corporate transactions, the legal bill is going to be so small relative to the dollars (potentially) changing hands that it just doesn't matter. One giant transaction I worked on, the total legal fee was such a small percentage of the transaction that my calculator spits it out in scientific notation when I do the math (2.73e-5, whatever that means. Several orders of magnitude less than one percent.)

And if fee stuff does matter, the total bill gets negotiated down with the partner, or else the client just doesn't pay (IIRC collected bills are only like 80% of issued bills across the industry?)

[Johann]

you guys realize idiots less than a couple years out from john marshall charge $250 an hour to file some chimpanzee paperwork that is paid for by someone making $40k a year. that seems much worse than charging a summer out to some organization with nearly unlimited pockets.

[DELG]

Articles like this pop up pretty regularly from Bankruptcy filings - it's great voyeurism into fees. People love counting lawyers charging over $1k per hour.

A little surprised Cravath put summers on a bill they knew would be public. For some matters summers do get billed to clients because they do work that isn't done by anyone else, so it kind-of sort-of makes sense, but they had to know this was going to fall under public scrutiny...

I thought in BK they just openly bill rape and nobody cares.

I saw a DELG showed me a BK filing where a summer billed like 40k of work.

[JusticeJackson]

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[Desert Fox]

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[rpupkin]

I give summer associates real billable work. Even if they don't know shit, they're still competent enough to review 300 pages of documents and flag every one that says the name of the upcoming deponent. That's work that needed to be done. Might as well give it to the guy that has half my billable rate, and I leave it on the bill (when I have discretion and when the client doesn't call my boss and bitch). I don't give summers or first years real drafting assignments any more. It's never gone well for me.

My firm actively makes sure we don't give them bitchwork, so that we can trick them into returning.

Same. Was true at my prior firm, too.

[ozymandius]

Pretty strange article. Summer associates aren't really any different in quality from first year associates--they just don't have as much work to do and they often have bad attitudes.

Anyway, $295 seems on the low side for a summer. But rates generally differ from client to client, if not indeed from matter to matter, so this isn't much of a revelation. I have matters where I bill in the $700s and other matters where I bill in the $400s. I had a matter recently where the client agreed to a blended rate for all "legally-qualified team members," which included one of our paralegals--he billed at over $600p/h on that one (then again, he's good enough that he's more than worth it).

[lacrossebrother]

What do good paralegals do? Mine prints filings w/ track changes, and widows my signature lines and tells me not to worry about it and then I get bitched at by partneers when i don't worry about it. Do good paralegals print flawless documents for $600/hr?

[ozymandius]

What do good paralegals do? Mine prints filings w/ track changes, and widows my signature lines and tells me not to worry about it and then I get bitched at. Do good paralegals print flawless documents for $600/hr?

Keeps the case organized (manages the calendar, actively reminds people of what needs to happen when, etc). Knows the document universe cold and can get you what you need as soon as you need it. Takes perfect (read 100% reliable) notes of interviews/phone calls. Drafts annoying logistical correspondence that I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole. Designs elaborate presentation materials for the client. That's just the tip of the iceberg, really.

[DELG]

Pretty strange article. Summer associates aren't really any different in quality from first year associates--they just don't have as much work to do and they often have bad attitudes.

No.

Anyway, $295 seems on the low side for a summer.

What?

But rates generally differ from client to client, if not indeed from matter to matter, so this isn't much of a revelation. I have matters where I bill in the $700s[/quote]

What year are you?? Are you talking about your effective rate for flat rate work?

and other matters where I bill in the $400s. I had a matter recently where the client agreed to a blended rate for all "legally-qualified team members," which included one of our paralegals--he billed at over $600p/h on that one (then again, he's good enough that he's more than worth it).

Goddamn.

[Helioze]

shit my firm charges 310 for summers

[rpupkin]

shit my firm charges 310 for summers

In theory, we bill $300/hr for summers. But, even though the summers record their time, I've never seen a client actually get billed for that time--so the rate doesn't really matter.

I'm sure, in the history of the firm, a client was billed for summer associate work on a particular matter. But it's a rare occurrence.

[El Pollito]

shit my firm charges 310 for summers

In theory, we bill $300/hr for summers. But, even though the summers record their time, I've never seen a client actually get billed for that time--so the rate doesn't really matter.

I'm sure, in the history of the firm, a client was billed for summer associate work on a particular matter. But it's a rare occurrence.

it's cute that summers think it's a practice at their firms though

[ozymandius]

Pretty strange article. Summer associates aren't really any different in quality from first year associates--they just don't have as much work to do and they often have bad attitudes.

No.

Anyway, $295 seems on the low side for a summer.

What?

But rates generally differ from client to client, if not indeed from matter to matter, so this isn't much of a revelation. I have matters where I bill in the $700s

What year are you?? Are you talking about your effective rate for flat rate work?

and other matters where I bill in the $400s. I had a matter recently where the client agreed to a blended rate for all "legally-qualified team members," which included one of our paralegals--he billed at over $600p/h on that one (then again, he's good enough that he's more than worth it).

Goddamn.[/quote]

Why do you think a summer is substantively worse than some first year associate who just stumbled through the gate? The only differences are some 3L coursework and a month of studying for the bar. Of course, the summer might have a worse attitude, although I've encountered plenty of unpleasant/indolent first-year associates too. Genuinely struggling to understand your point of view there, so please elaborate.

I'm a mid-level at a magic circle firm, so my exact "year" isn't determinative of my seniority or my billing rate. But in any event engagements are individually negotiated with clients, and, for various reasons, some clients drive harder bargains than others. $700 per hour for mid-levels is far from unusual, though, if that's what you're reacting to--fourth and fifth years at US firms are generally in that range (at least in terms of standard rates, which, admittedly, many clients refuse to pay).

[rpupkin]

Why do you think a summer is substantively worse than some first year associate who just stumbled through the gate? The only differences are some 3L coursework and a month of studying for the bar. Of course, the summer might have a worse attitude, although I've encountered plenty of unpleasant/indolent first-year associates too. Genuinely struggling to understand your point of view there, so please elaborate.

You weren't responding to me, but I'll answer. First, I don't think a summer is substantively worse than a first-year associate. But we also write off a lot of first-year associate time during their first few weeks, so in that sense we're consistent.

Second, as DF alluded to earlier, we generally don't give summers the same work that we give junior associates. A first-year is going to do a lot of discovery work--doc review, rog responses, etc. It's relatively easy to get a client to pay for that. A summer associate, by contrast, might be asked to draft a case-dispositive motion or draft a portion of an amicus brief. It's a great experience for the summer--and we'll even use portions of the summer associate's work if it's good--but we're not going to bill the client for it.

[DELG]

Summers are worth less than first years because firms give them work they're out of their depth on, just for lols and funsies, with no expectation that they'll contribute valuably. And then they don't.

Also, I have to spend 2x the time redoing/fixing my summer's work vs my first year. Hard to know why this is true, but it consistently is.

[ozymandius]

Ok, not sure that we really disagree, then (both of you). My quibble was that, pound for pound, given the same work to chew on, summers are roughly the same as first year associates. I sense that you both would be willing to agree with that statement, so I don't think we need to argue. The writer of the article in the OP would disagree, however--the tenor of the article was that it was preposterous that a client might be billed for the work of someone so wet behind the ears as a summer associate. That's what I'm not buying.

[DELG]

TBF most clients prefer not to be billed for first years, either

[legends159]

summers leave at 6 and are always out of pocket doing events, lunches and trainings. you can't give them real work with real deadlines or shit that needs to get done over the weekend per a Friday night fire drill.

The value 1st years add is being available 24/7. Clients will pay for that shit. Plus 1st years want to learn b/c it's sink or swim time. Summers DGAF since they're out in 3 months and back to school.

Paralegals are also valuable because they know how to do shit. Their range of expertise is limited but the stuff they do know how to do - they do it well. I left biglaw never knowing how to order a good standing or filing a certificate of formation b/c the paralegals would just make it happen easily. It's not hard to learn how to do, but I still had to spend some time learning how not to fuck it up. I wouldn't trust a summer associate to do something like that the night before closing.