UChicago OCI 2015 Forum

[Rahviveh]

I didn't want to pick a fight but since you started it, I couldn't agree more. Listening to 2Ls opinions about life at their summer firms is an exceptionally stupid thing to do. Many will either be dishonest or delusional About how life is.

When you're talking to rising 3ls you are doing so to get fodder for interviews so you can get the job. You are not talking to them to choose between firms, when that time comes

TLS does this so much-everything is either perfect or useless. "lawschoolpredictor is useless, use mylsn" is said all the time, but it's a ridiculous statement. Lawschoolpredictor is not useless, in fact, it's very useful. But you have to take it for what it's worth.

Same thing here. It's not "exceptionally stupid". In fact, I don't even know what that means in context. After all, it certainly won't hurt you, all the firms pay the same, and it can be useful. As to future job prospects, the vast majority of people don't expect to be in biglaw a few years down the line anyway. Key, though, is you can only make of it what it's worth, which is something. Not everything, but not nothing.

There are many other tangible, quantifiable things that are better to base your decision on. Facetime policies are not a firmwide thing and are gonna vary from partner to partner. You don't know who you're going to work with until the time comes. I don't know why law people are so bad when it comes to relying on anecdotal evidence

I'm curious about what tangible, quantifiable things you're talking about, because there really aren't that many that I know of. In fact, I can think of hardly any quantitative reason to choose between most of the big firms.

Anecdotal evidence can certainly be useful. The anecdotal experience that, at my firm, over three floors with 100 attorneys each, there were 2 associates in on one Saturday afternoon, and 1 associate in on another Saturday afternoon, is probably fairly reliable in terms of how well it represents what you can expect at the firm (at least over the summer months, from what I understand it tends to be more hectic in the non-summer months

You sound you like work at a very special firm! Congrats man.

[Anonymous User]

I'm curious about what tangible, quantifiable things you're talking about, because there really aren't that many that I know of. In fact, I can think of hardly any quantitative reason to choose between most of the big firms.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p7826814

[Robb]

I didn't want to pick a fight but since you started it, I couldn't agree more. Listening to 2Ls opinions about life at their summer firms is an exceptionally stupid thing to do. Many will either be dishonest or delusional About how life is.

When you're talking to rising 3ls you are doing so to get fodder for interviews so you can get the job. You are not talking to them to choose between firms, when that time comes

TLS does this so much-everything is either perfect or useless. "lawschoolpredictor is useless, use mylsn" is said all the time, but it's a ridiculous statement. Lawschoolpredictor is not useless, in fact, it's very useful. But you have to take it for what it's worth.

Same thing here. It's not "exceptionally stupid". In fact, I don't even know what that means in context. After all, it certainly won't hurt you, all the firms pay the same, and it can be useful. As to future job prospects, the vast majority of people don't expect to be in biglaw a few years down the line anyway. Key, though, is you can only make of it what it's worth, which is something. Not everything, but not nothing.

There are many other tangible, quantifiable things that are better to base your decision on. Facetime policies are not a firmwide thing and are gonna vary from partner to partner. You don't know who you're going to work with until the time comes. I don't know why law people are so bad when it comes to relying on anecdotal evidence

I'm curious about what tangible, quantifiable things you're talking about, because there really aren't that many that I know of. In fact, I can think of hardly any quantitative reason to choose between most of the big firms.

Anecdotal evidence can certainly be useful. The anecdotal experience that, at my firm, over three floors with 100 attorneys each, there were 2 associates in on one Saturday afternoon, and 1 associate in on another Saturday afternoon, is probably fairly reliable in terms of how well it represents what you can expect at the firm (at least over the summer months, from what I understand it tends to be more hectic in the non-summer months

You sound you like work at a very special firm! Congrats man.

Whether my firm is special or not is not the point. It could be the case that half of big law firms are the same way, and associates can work from home on weekends. In fact, that's probably true. The point, though, is that by talking to summers, you can learn which half is which.

[Robb]

I'm curious about what tangible, quantifiable things you're talking about, because there really aren't that many that I know of. In fact, I can think of hardly any quantitative reason to choose between most of the big firms.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p7826814

Exactly, thank you for linking that post. I agree with the poster that metrics like culture, facetime policies, and diversity are useful to consider. The numeric metrics are also interesting and potentially insightful, though I don't agree with Rahviveh that they are better than the softer factors.

[Robb]

And, obligatory:



The first time I've been involved, though.

[beepboopbeep]

And, obligatory:

The first time I've been involved, though.

We've all gotta scrap sometimes, man.

There is no meaningful difference between firms in terms of QOL - or put differently, to the extent there is a difference, the other factors that play into how unpleasant your job is (dynamics of your practice group, the folks you sit next to and whether you like grabbing lunch with them, whether you get put on a crazy case or a sane one, whether you get staffed with a crazy partner or a sane one, etc.) dwarf firm-to-firm differences, with very few exceptions. Once you are a few years out, this becomes patently obvious - who seems happy and who is openly miserable is wackily random and uncorrelated with the firms you whispered about as being sweatshops or safe havens.

When you are picking a firm, pick the firm that will put you in the best spot in 10 years or 20 years. Don't chase unicorns like the magical firm where you have no weekend work or everyone leaves at 7 and yet there's enough work that they don't push people out early.

I don't think Robb's advocating picking squire patton boggs over a Cravath on the basis of vibe or personality. But I also don't know what else you're going to use as a basis of a decision if you're picking between comparable firms for the practices you want to do aside from the stuff in NPH's post. And it seems like the more info you have about that stuff ahead of time, the more you can cut through the firm's bullshit (ofc the interviewers on your callback are going to be the easier conversationalists, the partners you meet are going to be the ones who can put on the best facade of giving a shit about summers, etc).

It's fair to say that maybe most people won't have the luxury of caring about intangibles and shouldn't start considering that stuff when the firm quality differences were bigger. I'm splitting, and the two offers I accepted were pretty clearly the best offers I had in each market. I imagine that's going to be the case for a lot of people after OCI's all said and done, so maybe the best advice for most people is: forget all the personality shit, pick the best firm you get for what you want to do.

I also think it's fair to respond to the above that 1) because a lot of the interviewers are going to be the happier people at their firms, 2) they're also the most likely to buy into firm-personality bullshit themselves, so 3) to best maximize your offer chances, it's better to show that you've done research into that firm and can parrot some of the stuff back to them. Not sure anyone would argue that's a bad interview strat.

e: also, gotta do this, but brave anon-ing, anon :-/

[2014]

Ok bros and potentially anon sisters let's take a step back. What the rising 2Ls should care about right now is BIDDING not choosing firms. They are almost completely unrelated unless someone is unwisely trying to target 3 markets because you can successfully target all major players in any combination of 2 of Chi/NY/DC/LA/SF/Texas.

Let's call a cease fire on the academic discussion over choosing firms until the 2Ls are in fact choosing firms.

If for whatever reason 2Ls do have a question about choosing between firms, by all means ask but it's probably early to be worrying about it. Right now you want to be generating a bid list and background info on all of the firms you anticipate screening with.

[beepboopbeep]

Very fair point - sorry for getting offtrack.

edit: accidental anon. This is beep.

[Emma.]

I didn't want to pick a fight but since you started it, I couldn't agree more. Listening to 2Ls opinions about life at their summer firms is an exceptionally stupid thing to do. Many will either be dishonest or delusional About how life is.

When you're talking to rising 3ls you are doing so to get fodder for interviews so you can get the job. You are not talking to them to choose between firms, when that time comes

TLS does this so much-everything is either perfect or useless. "lawschoolpredictor is useless, use mylsn" is said all the time, but it's a ridiculous statement. Lawschoolpredictor is not useless, in fact, it's very useful. But you have to take it for what it's worth.

Same thing here. It's not "exceptionally stupid". In fact, I don't even know what that means in context. After all, it certainly won't hurt you, all the firms pay the same, and it can be useful. As to future job prospects, the vast majority of people don't expect to be in biglaw a few years down the line anyway. Key, though, is you can only make of it what it's worth, which is something. Not everything, but not nothing.

There are many other tangible, quantifiable things that are better to base your decision on. Facetime policies are not a firmwide thing and are gonna vary from partner to partner. You don't know who you're going to work with until the time comes. I don't know why law people are so bad when it comes to relying on anecdotal evidence

I'm curious about what tangible, quantifiable things you're talking about, because there really aren't that many that I know of. In fact, I can think of hardly any quantitative reason to choose between most of the big firms.

Anecdotal evidence can certainly be useful. The anecdotal experience that, at my firm, over three floors with 100 attorneys each, there were 2 associates in on one Saturday afternoon, and 1 associate in on another Saturday afternoon, is probably fairly reliable in terms of how well it represents what you can expect at the firm (at least over the summer months, from what I understand it tends to be more hectic in the non-summer months

You sound you like work at a very special firm! Congrats man.

Whether my firm is special or not is not the point. It could be the case that half of big law firms are the same way, and associates can work from home on weekends. In fact, that's probably true. The point, though, is that by talking to summers, you can learn which half is which.

You know they tell the associates to leave early and to avoid the office on weekends just for the benefit of appearances during the summer program, right?

[WheninLaw]

This escalated quickly.

My advice is (1) how to bid properly and (2) how fun a particular firm's SA is. I know fuck-all nothing about actually working at one.

[Robb]

You know they tell the associates to leave early and to avoid the office on weekends just for the benefit of appearances during the summer program, right?

Again, this is tangential to my point. The point is that summer associates can provide you with information on their experiences. And, as others have noted, they're probably less biased because they're not trying to recruit you. Precisely what experiences will be useful vs. not useful is not my point, but certainly worth discussing. (As an aside, the answer to your question is obviously no. I have no way of knowing the veracity of what you said. But, I do know two things: (1) there is a pretty good chance you don't work at my firm, so you don't know either, though you may have a good hunch (again, TLS and absolutes), and (2) if what you're saying is true, the associates are really bad at following instructions since they regularly stay til midnight on weekdays and openly talk about working at home on weekends.)

[Anonymous User]

Just stop dude. No one who's even a little bit intelligent talks shit on their firm to randos.

I'm not disingenuous, but I sure as hell focus on the positives when someone asks unless I really trust that person.

[Robb]

Just stop dude. No one who's even a little bit intelligent talks shit on their firm to randos.

I'm not disingenuous, but I sure as hell focus on the positives when someone asks unless I really trust that person.

I think this is a fair point, though the characterization that anyone who is open about the negatives in their firm is not "even a little bit intelligent" is over the top and insulting to several very intelligent c/o 2015ers, and a few 2016ers that worked at firms, who were very open about the downsides of their firms last year.

But I think that what you said is certainly generally true. Still, everyone here is reasonably intelligent and can read between the lines. You talk to someone from firm A who talks about how great X is, you talk to someone from firm B who talks about how great X is, and everyone you talk to at firm C dodges any questions about X, or focuses on Y which is not something you particularly like, it's something to think about, if X matters to you, or not-Y matters to you. (Because, after all, what one person considers shit-talking, another might consider to be complimenting, since people like different things... there are certainly some positive things I could say about my firm that others would definitely consider to be negatives, though I won't post them on a public forum, but I think I would be pretty open about them with a c/o 2017er.)

But, again, it's all about what matters to you, and adjusting based on the particular situation. It certainly doesn't hurt, and it undeniably helps by, at the very least, giving you material for the screener and callbacks.

[Rahviveh]

You know they tell the associates to leave early and to avoid the office on weekends just for the benefit of appearances during the summer program, right?

Again, this is tangential to my point. The point is that summer associates can provide you with information on their experiences. And, as others have noted, they're probably less biased because they're not trying to recruit you. Precisely what experiences will be useful vs. not useful is not my point, but certainly worth discussing. (As an aside, the answer to your question is obviously no. I have no way of knowing the veracity of what you said. But, I do know two things: (1) there is a pretty good chance you don't work at my firm, so you don't know either, though you may have a good hunch (again, TLS and absolutes), and (2) if what you're saying is true, the associates are really bad at following instructions since they regularly stay til midnight on weekdays and openly talk about working at home on weekends.)

This post is horrible. With all due respect its time to retire from this thread. This thread isn't even about choosing between firms but you felt the need to come in here and write essays bragging about how nobody works on the weekends at your sweatshop. Unles you want to share what firm you work at so we can all go there because its so awesome

[beepboopbeep]

This is a weird convo knowing both of you IRL and knowing that neither of you are assholes

Dunno anon, because brave brave sir anon

2014 is right that it's going to be most useful for the current 2Ls if this convo stops.

[CorporateLab]

Wow someone sounds happy at the firm they picked! I'm glad that whatever firm Rahviveh is at hasn't turned him/her into a giant douche-bag that has to take his/her frustration out on his/her classmates online!

Rising 2Ls, I'd recommend PM'ing this guy/girl and asking him/her where he/she works because it sounds like a blast!!!

[Un Chien Andalou]

Now that the discussion has really gotten going I think we should pivot to the pros and cons of corporate lab.

[eazye]

Odds we get grades today? Tomorrow?

Line is opening at 2-1 for today, 1-1 for tomorrow. Let me know if there are takers.

[lawlschool1l]

Odds we get grades today? Tomorrow?

Line is opening at 2-1 for today, 1-1 for tomorrow. Let me know if there are takers.

Today it is. God damn i'm so fucking terrified

[WheninLaw]

Good luck, all. Pie, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone point me to where we can find the info about expected # of 2L SA for San Francisco. I can't seem to find that info on the NALP website. Thanks!

[Robb]

Go to https://www.nalpdirectory.com, find the firm of interest, go to "Recruitment & Hiring", "Hiring Grid". It looks like they still have expected 2015 data, not 2016 data.

Also be sure to look at "Summer Associate Hiring Questions" which tells you the offer rate of each firm.

[Anonymous User]

Go to https://www.nalpdirectory.com, find the firm of interest, go to "Recruitment & Hiring", "Hiring Grid". It looks like they still have expected 2015 data, not 2016 data.

Also be sure to look at "Summer Associate Hiring Questions" which tells you the offer rate of each firm.

Sorry for the novice question, but I'm not sure what the above number measures.

Is it 1) the amount of callbacks the firm sends out across all schools/the number of offers they make to 2L's for that particular summer OR 2) the number of 2L's who summered the year prior/the number of full time offers the firm gives out?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know the rough timeline for knowing whether or not we made the K&E cut-off?

[2014]

Go to https://www.nalpdirectory.com, find the firm of interest, go to "Recruitment & Hiring", "Hiring Grid". It looks like they still have expected 2015 data, not 2016 data.

Also be sure to look at "Summer Associate Hiring Questions" which tells you the offer rate of each firm.

Sorry for the novice question, but I'm not sure what the above number measures.

Is it 1) the amount of callbacks the firm sends out across all schools/the number of offers they make to 2L's for that particular summer OR 2) the number of 2L's who summered the year prior/the number of full time offers the firm gives out?

It's # of 2L summers in summer 2014 and # of full time associate offers extended to those 2L summers following summer 2014.

GL all and feel free to post questions once you have grades. Coming up with a hypothetical bid list (do you have the OCI info yet?) and asking for critiques is the best use of 3L/grad resources, but by all means feel free to just post your GPA and any pertinent info to ask about reasonability of your individual goals too.