Hate law school but (I think) I enjoy transactional work Forum

[84651846190]

Drop the fuck out of law school and get an MBA. Immediately.

Is this serious advice? If so, would I practically be able to make this work, given that I am a K-JD with a useless liberal arts degree?

This is my advice to everyone who doesn't want to litigate. Non-litigation work is infinitely more exciting, rewarding and (potentially) lucrative when you're working on it as a non-lawyer.

Suggesting a K-JD student with zero debt load and a real shot at 160k/yr drop out and enroll in an MBA program (perhaps taking on three years of student debt) for a very risky gamble at any gainful employment (considering he would now be K-UG) is terrible advice.

To be clear, there really are next to no circumstances wherein OP should drop out. A debt free JD and summer SA money is still better than 2 years wasted in law school and a liberal arts BA.

But then you will be a lawyer for the rest of your life which is objectively horrible.

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

[TTTooKewl]

But then you will be a lawyer for the rest of your life which is objectively horrible.

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

The grass always seems greener. And although it probably is actually greener for your friend, there are 99 other super intelligent young adults with useless BAs to your friend's 1 who don't end up with a life infinitely cooler than yours. Just like there is 1 biglaw refugee who ends up on an executive board or doing something else super interesting to the other 99 super intelligent biglaw refugees who do not. And then there's the other 99% of the country.

[84651846190]

But then you will be a lawyer for the rest of your life which is objectively horrible.

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

The grass always seems greener. And although it probably is actually greener for your friend, there are 99 other super intelligent young adults with useless BAs to your friend's 1 who don't end up with a life infinitely cooler than yours. Just like there is 1 biglaw refugee who ends up on an executive board or doing something else super interesting to the other 99 super intelligent biglaw refugees who do not. And then there's the other 99% of the country.

Tis better to have tried at something cool and lost than to try at something that fucking sucks and also lose.

[Anonymous User]

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

Is moving to the business side of a client form biglaw pretty much impossible? I assume that most in-house positions do not include much actual business?

[84651846190]

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

Is moving to the business side of a client form biglaw pretty much impossible? I assume that most in-house positions do not include much actual business?

I don't know. I imagine it would be quite difficult and would involve you becoming a top expert in the field the company does business in, but this is something you could have done without a JD. Why do you need a JD + 300k of debt to make it happen? It makes no sense.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

Is moving to the business side of a client form biglaw pretty much impossible? I assume that most in-house positions do not include much actual business?

I don't know. I imagine it would be quite difficult and would involve you becoming a top expert in the field the company does business in, but this is something you could have done without a JD. Why do you need a JD + 300k of debt to make it happen? It makes no sense.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. If you work in the right practice area & for the right type of clients, you may realistically be able to make this happen, though it requires some serious luck. This is particularly true for startup/VC transactional work, especially if you're company-side.

With early-stage companies as clients, young associates basically serve as outside GCs. The founders always deal directly with you because they know you (and you're cheaper than the partners) and their issues are rarely complex. If they hit it big with a round of financing and can afford an in-house GC, you'll be their first pick. Since the company is so small, you'll have a very quasi-business role and will probably serve on the board, etc.

However, the far more likely scenario is obviously that you'll go in house at a later-stage company as a grunt if you leave the firm early. You'll be a higher level grunt if you wait longer, with a shorter path to GC.

The point of all this is that if you're a K-JD w/ a liberal arts degree, no marketable skills, and no connections, dropping out is an unlikely path to getting that dream job at a startup. Working for the right firm at least puts you in the right circles.

[84651846190]

This is a bit of an exaggeration. If you work in the right practice area & for the right type of clients, you may realistically be able to make this happen, though it requires some serious luck. This is particularly true for startup/VC transactional work, especially if you're company-side.

With early-stage companies as clients, young associates basically serve as outside GCs. The founders always deal directly with you because they know you (and you're cheaper than the partners) and their issues are rarely complex. If they hit it big with a round of financing and can afford an in-house GC, you'll be their first pick. Since the company is so small, you'll have a very quasi-business role and will probably serve on the board, etc.

However, the far more likely scenario is obviously that you'll go in house at a later-stage company as a grunt if you leave the firm early. You'll be a higher level grunt if you wait longer, with a shorter path to GC.

The point of all this is that if you're a K-JD w/ a liberal arts degree, no marketable skills, and no connections, dropping out is an unlikely path to getting that dream job at a startup. Working for the right firm at least puts you in the right circles.

I doubt a business is going to bring you on in a non-legal capacity without you having some seriously detailed and extensive knowledge about their business. That requires luck (as you pointed out) but also a lot of time and dedication to just one client. If things don't go well for you, it's not like you have a diversified portfolio of cases/deals you've worked on that you can fall back on.

Also, a lot of startups fail. Then you're fucked.

[sinfiery]

Work 3-5 years, cop that 300k nest egg and do something awesome with it.

[Anonymous User]

Getting a JD doesn't help you become anything other than a lawyer. If you enjoy transactional work and are smart enough to get a 160k salary as an attorney, you are smart enough to do something more interesting and, possibly, more lucrative outside of law, useless BA notwithstanding. I have a friend with a useless BA who works at a startup (now venture-backed). He was poor for a couple of years, but now his life is infinitely cooler than mine will ever be.

You only live once.

Is moving to the business side of a client form biglaw pretty much impossible? I assume that most in-house positions do not include much actual business?

I don't know. I imagine it would be quite difficult and would involve you becoming a top expert in the field the company does business in, but this is something you could have done without a JD. Why do you need a JD + 300k of debt to make it happen? It makes no sense.

I will have almost no debt upon graduation, if that makes a difference.

[mirage1287]

The answer you're looking for really depends on what it is you would like to do with your career. If you want to be an attorney, finish the JD/land the transactional gig.

If you want to work on the business-side of a company, then getting a JD and becoming an attorney is an extremely roundabout way of accomplishing that goal. As BigLawAssociate said above, a JD qualifies you to be an attorney and nothing else. It would be very difficult for you to go to a firm, then inhouse and then try to switch to the business side of things. That's not to say it can't be done, but why would you go down the firm route in the first place if you already know that's your end-goal? Transitioning out of the law is possible and people do it, but you'll be met with constant skepticism (especially during interviews) as to why you no longer want to be/aren't a lawyer anymore.

If business is your long-term goal, then find a business job. If you had the grades to get into a T6, that will help, regardless of your useless liberal arts degree. There are many entry-level business positions that don't require a business degree to land - just keep in mind that those jobs will pay far less than $160K.

So the short answer is...don't go down the path of becoming a lawyer if being a lawyer isn't really what you want to do.

[JenDarby]

I work in-house at a bank and there is a fair number of ex big law associates who then went to B school and became bankers.

If he wants an MBA required job, he needs to get into a good school and then get hired. He's not going to do that with his liberal arts BA and zero work experience. A JD and transactional work in this scenario are likely his best route to any professional career.

It's easy to say a JD won't help, but name a concrete alternative option for this guy that would be preferable.

His debt free JD and a high paying associate position will open far more doors than that liberal arts BA, even if it just means saving up some money, gaining WE and then returning to school.

[mirage1287]

I'm not arguing that the JD/biglaw gig won't open doors - my point is that the doors it opens may not necessarily be the doors he wants to walk through.

Assuming again that OP has good grades and a solid UG, he can try:

- Management or industry-specific consulting at either a Big4 or a smaller consulting shop. Many of these positions don't require a UG business degree.
- Sales/business development
- Community operations positions at tech companies

Those are just a few options and I know many people who landed the above jobs with "useless liberal arts degrees." All of those jobs are also going to put OP on a direct career path into more senior business roles, which working biglaw transactional will not necessarily lead to. Business jobs are also going to look better on MBA applications because the WE is more relevant.

[Anonymous User]

Are many (or any) of the skills learned being a transactional attorney at all significant if I wanted to start my own business? That's the ultimate goal farther down the road.

[84651846190]

I work in-house at a bank and there is a fair number of ex big law associates who then went to B school and became bankers.

If he wants an MBA required job, he needs to get into a good school and then get hired. He's not going to do that with his liberal arts BA and zero work experience. A JD and transactional work in this scenario are likely his best route to any professional career.

It's easy to say a JD won't help, but name a concrete alternative option for this guy that would be preferable.

His debt free JD and a high paying associate position will open far more doors than that liberal arts BA, even if it just means saving up some money, gaining WE and then returning to school.

If he wants to be a lawyer, sure. I agree with you. If he does not want to be a lawyer, going to law school is a waste of time, even if you're already done with two years. He could be working toward doing something that he actually wants to do. One year of lost earnings is not the only thing to consider. Consider if the OP works full time for one year trying to get work experience and getting his ducks in a row to get into a top MBA program. That's a much better path than finishing the JD. Once you're a lawyer, you are always viewed as a lawyer (for the most part). People will give a lot more respect to someone who decides legal practice is something he doesn't want to do than someone who just completes a JD in order to check some box that will be totally meaningless.

[84651846190]

Are many (or any) of the skills learned being a transactional attorney at all significant if I wanted to start my own business? That's the ultimate goal farther down the road.

In a traditional, Wall Street biglaw firm? No. In a smaller firm like WSGR? Yes. But the most important part of starting a business is figuring out what the fuck you're going to sell or provide as a service. This latter part is infinitely more difficult to complete than the legal shit. Hell, you can find thousands of attorneys who will be desperate to help you form your business for very reasonable rates. So I wouldn't worry about learning the legal aspects at all. There are way too many fucking lawyers and not nearly enough people trying to form businesses.

[84651846190]

You have about a 50/50 shot of forming a successful business (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... ul-claims/). As someone who is smart and able to get a biglaw SA job, when was the last time you were in the bottom half of anything? Probably never.

Ignore the naysayers on this board. Do what you want to do NOW. If that is starting a business, a JD will not help you.

[TTTooKewl]

You have about a 50/50 shot of forming a successful business (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... ul-claims/). As someone who is smart and able to get a biglaw SA job, when was the last time you were in the bottom half of anything? Probably never.

Ignore the naysayers on this board. Do what you want to do NOW. If that is starting a business, a JD will not help you.

Meh. Biglaw Associate obviously dislikes the choice he made in life and assumes other choices he would have made would certainly have been better. It's simply not necessarily true for him and not necessarily true for you. Don't let his negativity for his career and optimism for everything else he could have done sway you. Some people are simply unhappy and would be no matter what decisions they made--good brain chemistry ftw. Can you drop out today and form a profitable business? Almost certainly--I agree with Biglaw Associate. But 'profitable business' is a pretty low bar.

For me, this comes down to how much risk you want to take and how comfortable you are making sub $100k for an extended period of time. Right now, you are set on a great path. If you drop out to start a business or otherwise start climbing the ladder in business, you will struggle for a while, and you may break through and surpass the earning potential of the biglaw route, but it's far from guaranteed. You're six months away from your summer. I would stick it out--try taking some transactional-based classes in the meantime and see how you like the work over the summer.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

The best advice anyone can give you is to do what you are genuinely passionate about. If you don't like transactional work you won't enjoy it and you'll have limited success. If you do enjoy it--and some people, not me, do-then why not do that?

[TTTooKewl]

The best advice anyone can give you is to do what you are genuinely passionate about. If you don't like transactional work you won't enjoy it and you'll have limited success. If you do enjoy it--and some people, not me, do-then why not do that?

I am personally a bit skeptical of this cliche, and maybe I am jaded. I 'followed my passion' after undergrad. And I had monetary and professional success doing so. But after a few years of 'following my passion' for 40-60 hours a week, it become a chore and a job, and a boring one at that. Granted, this is just one data point, and may be more telling of the field I entered than following one's passion generally.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I think I am going to stick it out. Worst case scenario I don't end up liking transactional work, and then I at least have some security if I decide to branch out and start my own thing.

[84651846190]

You have about a 50/50 shot of forming a successful business (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... ul-claims/). As someone who is smart and able to get a biglaw SA job, when was the last time you were in the bottom half of anything? Probably never.

Ignore the naysayers on this board. Do what you want to do NOW. If that is starting a business, a JD will not help you.

Meh. Biglaw Associate obviously dislikes the choice he made in life and assumes other choices he would have made would certainly have been better. It's simply not necessarily true for him and not necessarily true for you. Don't let his negativity for his career and optimism for everything else he could have done sway you. Some people are simply unhappy and would be no matter what decisions they made--good brain chemistry ftw. Can you drop out today and form a profitable business? Almost certainly--I agree with Biglaw Associate. But 'profitable business' is a pretty low bar.

For me, this comes down to how much risk you want to take and how comfortable you are making sub $100k for an extended period of time. Right now, you are set on a great path. If you drop out to start a business or otherwise start climbing the ladder in business, you will struggle for a while, and you may break through and surpass the earning potential of the biglaw route, but it's far from guaranteed. You're six months away from your summer. I would stick it out--try taking some transactional-based classes in the meantime and see how you like the work over the summer.

It's not really about my personal choices. It's about the misconception that happiness can only be achieved by minimizing risk and taking the road most traveled. If OP is the type of person who cannot survive without a six figure salary over the next few years, then fine. He should stick it out. But there are a shitload of people out there who survive on a lot less, and doing what you want should always be more important than doing what is perceived as common, comfortable and safe, IMO (assuming it involves at least some kind of pursuit of gainful employment). I'm in biglaw because I have a family that I support and absolutely could not pursue starting a business without potentially letting children starve. Most people who went to my law school, however, were not in my position (at least while they were still in law school) and I don't understand for the life of me why a smart, young, capable single person must earn a six figure salary doing something they don't really want to do over the long run. Life is not about checking boxes. That shit ends once you leave school.

[AReasonableMan]

You have about a 50/50 shot of forming a successful business (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... ul-claims/). As someone who is smart and able to get a biglaw SA job, when was the last time you were in the bottom half of anything? Probably never.

Ignore the naysayers on this board. Do what you want to do NOW. If that is starting a business, a JD will not help you.

Meh. Biglaw Associate obviously dislikes the choice he made in life and assumes other choices he would have made would certainly have been better. It's simply not necessarily true for him and not necessarily true for you. Don't let his negativity for his career and optimism for everything else he could have done sway you. Some people are simply unhappy and would be no matter what decisions they made--good brain chemistry ftw. Can you drop out today and form a profitable business? Almost certainly--I agree with Biglaw Associate. But 'profitable business' is a pretty low bar.

For me, this comes down to how much risk you want to take and how comfortable you are making sub $100k for an extended period of time. Right now, you are set on a great path. If you drop out to start a business or otherwise start climbing the ladder in business, you will struggle for a while, and you may break through and surpass the earning potential of the biglaw route, but it's far from guaranteed. You're six months away from your summer. I would stick it out--try taking some transactional-based classes in the meantime and see how you like the work over the summer.

Honestly, at many firms, the summer experience is so fun you can't really gauge what you like. You generally get put on the more exciting part of cases.

You might know which people you click with and the general types of matters you will be working on, but it's like trying to judge NYC traffic by driving on Christmas day. Oh, traffic isn't bad. I made it cross town in five minutes. Every practice group is going to be all smiles, laughs, steak and merlot.

[Anonymous User]

Mid-level corporate associate here. I hated law school and genuinely enjoy corporate practice. Will not stay at a firm long term because of the lack of work/life balance, but I would strongly recommend staying the course. More upside than downside at this point - no question. FWIW, I have lots of friends that did MBAs that hate their jobs now. JDs don't have a corner on the market of hating life/their job/their field.