2L, struck out at OCI - drop out? Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I have no idea what a Stone Scholar is, but S&C definitely draws from around (and occasionally below) median at UChicago. WLRK and, to a lesser extent, Cravath, on the other hand, tend to be a little pickier about grades from what I've seen.

I find this impossible to believe. Out of ~100 CLS people offered by S&C in the past three years, I think two or three were not Stone. Truthfully, anyone below a 3.6 (top ~15%) doesn't have a good shot. At the rest of the T14 it's a similar story. I seriously doubt it's any different at UChi.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Also generally, must bids for median-ish from T14 (all NYC): Cadwalader, Cahill, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Jones Day, Kaye Scholer, Kirkland, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Ropes, Schulte, Shearman, Sidley, Skadden, Weil, Willkie. Maybe ten or fifteen more that you could argue with, depending on preference.

[jbagelboy]

I have no idea what a Stone Scholar is, but S&C definitely draws from around (and occasionally below) median at UChicago. WLRK and, to a lesser extent, Cravath, on the other hand, tend to be a little pickier about grades from what I've seen.

I find this impossible to believe. Out of ~100 CLS people offered by S&C in the past three years, I think two or three were not Stone. Truthfully, anyone below a 3.6 (top ~15%) doesn't have a good shot. At the rest of the T14 it's a similar story. I seriously doubt it's any different at UChi.

this is drifting dangerously far away from the OP, but I actually buy that one school might have different relationships with a firm than another. This is why I think the "HYS,CCN,MVP" type monolithic categories are functionally idiotic; they do a decent job of reflecting the rigor of admissions based on LSAT/GPA, but they mistake the operation of firm recruiting. S&C might have a more difficult time attracting Chicago students than Harvard and Columbia students, the V5 bread and butter schools where the cutoffs are comparable. So they might go down to median. Conversely, Cravath may be pickier at UChi than Columbia or Harvard or NYU for any number of reasons.

Also Chicago is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of the other main feeders, so the sample sizes play a role here. We know students with family connections, valuable URM status, or some other defining feature can evade these rough grade cutoffs. At Harvard, I wouldn't be surprised if there were over a hundred offers for summers at somewhere like S&C, Davis or Cravath. Tons of HLS students will go. Outliers are just noise. At Chicago, a couple kids from median makes a difference when we compare %s.

[Manhattan]

The V10 (in New York) have a very difficult time getting UChicago students to go there. For example, places like S&C have an offer-to-acceptance rate of less than 20%. It therefore makes sense to admit students at or slightly below median when most of the people with good grade are likely to stick around Chicago or go somewhere other than NYC.

[84651846190]

The V10 (in New York) have a very difficult time getting UChicago students to go there. For example, places like S&C have an offer-to-acceptance rate of less than 20%. It therefore makes sense to admit students at or slightly below median when most of the people with good grade are likely to stick around Chicago or go somewhere other than NYC.

In my experience, the difference between a median Chicago student and a top Chicago student is usually not that big. Both are pretty much equally smart enough and hardworking enough to do 99% of the work in biglaw. Maybe the top student gets more shots at appellate work, but lol @ anyone trying to succeed in doing primarily appellate work over the long run.

[patagonia93]

OP- I think you should stick it out. Your debt situation isn't bad, and I have several friends in your shoes (~bottom quarter of the class) who were able to land on their feet during 3L OCI. Securing a decent summer job would be very helpful, so you should focus on that.

Also generally, must bids for median-ish from T14 (all NYC): Cadwalader, Cahill, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Jones Day, Kaye Scholer, Kirkland, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Ropes, Schulte, Shearman, Sidley, Skadden, Weil, Willkie. Maybe ten or fifteen more that you could argue with, depending on preference.

Skadden (and arguably Weil) should not be on this list. Skadden NY takes the same % of Stone Scholars from CLS as Paul Weiss and Cleary, for example. And Skadden has to be bid much higher than either of them so to say that it's a must bid for median students from T14, especially for schools lower than CLS, is just bad advice.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Also Chicago is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of the other main feeders, so the sample sizes play a role here. We know students with family connections, valuable URM status, or some other defining feature can evade these rough grade cutoffs. At Harvard, I wouldn't be surprised if there were over a hundred offers for summers at somewhere like S&C, Davis or Cravath. Tons of HLS students will go. Outliers are just noise. At Chicago, a couple kids from median makes a difference when we compare %s.

Dirty little secret: Non-WLRK V5 offer only slightly more HLS students than CLS students. A given CLS student is significantly more likely to wind up at one of them than a given HLS student.

Also generally, must bids for median-ish from T14 (all NYC): Cadwalader, Cahill, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Jones Day, Kaye Scholer, Kirkland, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Ropes, Schulte, Shearman, Sidley, Skadden, Weil, Willkie. Maybe ten or fifteen more that you could argue with, depending on preference.

Skadden (and arguably Weil) should not be on this list. Skadden NY takes the same % of Stone Scholars from CLS as Paul Weiss and Cleary, for example. And Skadden has to be bid much higher than either of them so to say that it's a must bid for median students from T14, especially for schools lower than CLS, is just bad advice.

Yeah, looking at it again Skadden is a little more selective than that implies, so I'd say they're more of a luxury than a necessity. I could see Weil going either way.

[patagonia93]

Also generally, must bids for median-ish from T14 (all NYC): Cadwalader, Cahill, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Jones Day, Kaye Scholer, Kirkland, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Ropes, Schulte, Shearman, Sidley, Skadden, Weil, Willkie. Maybe ten or fifteen more that you could argue with, depending on preference.

Skadden (and arguably Weil) should not be on this list. Skadden NY takes the same % of Stone Scholars from CLS as Paul Weiss and Cleary, for example. And Skadden has to be bid much higher than either of them so to say that it's a must bid for median students from T14, especially for schools lower than CLS, is just bad advice.

Yeah, looking at it again Skadden is a little more selective than that implies, so I'd say they're more of a luxury than a necessity. I could see Weil going either way.

Weil had a weird couple years, so who knows. For Skadden, it's not even a luxury, it's just a bad idea. The student would be wasting a high bid spot on a firm with low realistic chances. I would never recommend a median student from T14 to bid on a firm that takes 85% honors students from CLS. It's probably related to the geography of the law school and the firm. Kirkland NY isn't selective at CLS/UChi but I imagine Kirkland Chi is very much so. You most likely don't need to be Stone to get top NY firms in other cities.

This is another reason why I think OP should stick it out. His chances of landing a NY firm during 3L OCI could be better from UChi than CLS/NYU (although I don't have numbers to support this).

[jbagelboy]

Also Chicago is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of the other main feeders, so the sample sizes play a role here. We know students with family connections, valuable URM status, or some other defining feature can evade these rough grade cutoffs. At Harvard, I wouldn't be surprised if there were over a hundred offers for summers at somewhere like S&C, Davis or Cravath. Tons of HLS students will go. Outliers are just noise. At Chicago, a couple kids from median makes a difference when we compare %s.

Dirty little secret: Non-WLRK V5 offer only slightly more HLS students than CLS students. A given CLS student is significantly more likely to wind up at one of them than a given HLS student.

Right; I wasn't disagreeing with this, just saying the class sizes work out proportionally (making a couple Chicago outliers more visible) and used hls as an example

[Mal Reynolds]

S&C absolutely hires down to median at UChicago. As do other NYC v10s. It is not an outlier issue.

[Manhattan]

The V10 (in New York) have a very difficult time getting UChicago students to go there. For example, places like S&C have an offer-to-acceptance rate of less than 20%. It therefore makes sense to admit students at or slightly below median when most of the people with good grade are likely to stick around Chicago or go somewhere other than NYC.

In my experience, the difference between a median Chicago student and a top Chicago student is usually not that big. Both are pretty much equally smart enough and hardworking enough to do 99% of the work in biglaw. Maybe the top student gets more shots at appellate work, but lol @ anyone trying to succeed in doing primarily appellate work over the long run.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't insinuating that UChicago students are somehow better or smarter than the students at other top law schools like CLS. Rather, I was saying that the UChicago students with good grades tend to avoid NYC if possible (this is obviously not true for everyone, but for the majority of UChicago's students, they would take something like K&E, Sidley, Jenner, etc. in Chicago over anything in NYC). For example, S&C NYC extended almost twenty offers to UChicago students during OCI, but less than five ended up accepting their offers. The rates for the other V10 firms in NYC were similar - almost all of them had offer-to-acceptance rates of around 20%. Because of this, the top NYC firms have to dig deeper into UChicago's class to find enough students to fill their quota for the school.

Anyway, this information is too late to help the OP and other 2Ls in his/her situation. What I really wanted to stress (and if possible have upperclassmen confirm) is that 3L OCI at UChicago isn't what some people ITT are making it out to be. Mainly, I've heard that it is like 1L Winter OCI in that you can only bid on 4 employers in total (and you generally only get 1 law firm), and I have no idea if they allow 3Ls to show up the morning of like 2Ls to grab spots during lunch or at the end of the day. Instead of stating what 3L OCI is like at other schools, it would be good to get input from someone at UChicago who actually knows about its process.

[Mal Reynolds]

At one point Cravath had offered 18 UChicago students and only 1 had accepted. I can't guarantee this is where it finished but I heard from multiple people the NYC firms were very worried about our acceptance rates.

[Anonymous User]

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[Dany]

Hi OP. If you're at UChicago, feel free to PM me. I'm a 2014 grad and I can let you know what a couple people in my class who struck out at 2L OCI are doing now and what they did 2L summer, if you'd like.

Best of luck with everything.

[2014]

All NY firms except WLRK hire down to "median" at Chicago which encompasses slightly below median as well.

Anyone saying different, mostly Mono, is talking completely out of their ass.





E - RE: 3L OCI at UChi firms can open a few spots for 3Ls and you bid just like you did for 2L. The options are WILDLY less numerous though. Only Latham and Cravath showed up from NY and many of the other markets were looking for specialized groups.

That being said I know of at least one of my classmates who had no 2L SA and is going to a NY firm post-grad and I know of a ton of mass mail or networking interviews. A lot of recruiting departments asked our SAs to recommend classmates as well. 3L hiring was somewhat robust this year compared to the past several though I believe.

[Anonymous User]

For us 2Ls that struck out but could be competitive for 3LOLCI, our best bet is that the economy keeps marginally improving (which is questionable, given ebola et. all), and for firms to give shitty bonuses and create huge retention issues or something.

[lisjjen]

25% at CCN? You'll be fine. I know plenty of people who had worse grades than that 10 to 20 schools down the food chain who found private sector work a few months from graduation. I don't mean to speak for the top 6, but I know that I have heard a million times that you can't go through law school expecting CSO to hand you a job in a gift wrapped box.

[Anonymous User]

All NY firms except WLRK hire down to "median" at Chicago which encompasses slightly below median as well.

Anyone saying different, mostly Mono, is talking completely out of their ass.

I didn't say different. I said I found it hard to believe S&C hires below median given their practices at basically every other school they interview with, but if you say that's misguided, then I'll take your word since you're in a better position to know. Everyone has been talking up a shitstorm about what a disaster Chicago hiring has been, but it sounds like there have been so many offers that highly selective NYC firms can't even compete unless they go way below their cutoffs anywhere else. Which raises the question of who the hell is striking out if median is getting S&C, but I suppose that OP is, unfortunately, all too aware of who that might be.

[Mal Reynolds]

25% at CCN? You'll be fine. I know plenty of people who had worse grades than that 10 to 20 schools down the food chain who found private sector work a few months from graduation. I don't mean to speak for the top 6, but I know that I have heard a million times that you can't go through law school expecting CSO to hand you a job in a gift wrapped box.

Bottom 25%

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

^^My bad, accidental anon.

[lisjjen]

25% at CCN? You'll be fine. I know plenty of people who had worse grades than that 10 to 20 schools down the food chain who found private sector work a few months from graduation. I don't mean to speak for the top 6, but I know that I have heard a million times that you can't go through law school expecting CSO to hand you a job in a gift wrapped box.

Bottom 25%

By 25%, I meant 25th percentile. I was implying that if OP hustled their ass off between now and getting their diploma, they can go work for a midsize, boutique, (or possibly biglaw?). OCI is all about formulas and charts with an emphasis on GPA and law review because there are so many applicants to review in a concentrated period of time. If OP can form relationships with people who make hiring decisions, a law firm puts the name of the law school on the website, not a lawyer's GPA.

I'm saying I know people in the Tex/UCLA/Vanderbilt bracket that were in the bottom 25% or below who struck out at OCI and are working at well respected mid-size and boutiques, including a couple who did indeed go biglaw in 3L.

[Manhattan]

Which raises the question of who the hell is striking out if median is getting S&C, but I suppose that OP is, unfortunately, all too aware of who that might be.

the problem is that even UChicago's students make the same assumptions you did about the V10, and so they don't really bid on those firms. We get a callback report that states the 25th and 75th percentiles for previous years' callback grades, and the 25th percentile I think scares a lot of people away because it looks high. In reality, they should ignore those numbers because they tend to skew high because of self-selection.

[toddly76]

My story is anecdotal and definitely defies the conventional logic, but I can recommend a few things.

I struck out at 2L OCI at a lower T-14. I was a tad above median after 1L year and bid markets in the Midwest from an East Coast school. Bad idea. My 2L year I took some classes from a very noted and connected corporate law professor and became friends with him. I did well in all of my 2L classes and booked the corporate law professor's class (this required an insane amount of hustling). I also ran for and became editor in chief of my secondary journal. The professor helped me get a job at a nonprofit over my 2L summer and helped arrange some interviews with firms where his former students worked

Long story short, I ended up with 2 V-10 offers after 3L OCI. One where the prof had connections, and one where he didn't. I accepted one in New York.

It's certainly a gamble, but if there is any way to bump your resume and grades and make some personal connections among the faculty, by all means do so.

[AreJay711]

OP: The odds of you getting a biglaw job aren't great. You could probably raise your class rank -- which is something that you can do with effort 2L and beyond because most people don't give a fuck -- and put yourself in contention for 3L OCI. Your odds of getting any firm job that can pay the bills (I'd say, realistically, paying $65k+) probably isn't that bad though. I know people at my lower t14 school in your position were able to find something. Don't be afraid to drop out if you want, but don't think that you are fucked.

[2014]

We have many many special snowflakes who refuse to bid NY even if it is career suicide to not. If 80% of our class bid NY like NYU/Columbia the selectivity would be different but when less than half of an already small class even thinks about NY and that half doesn't include most of LR since they are competitive elsewhere, the choice for V10s is median or no one. Fortunately for us they consistently choose median.