Jobs with 2.91 Forum

[BlueLotus]

Be geographically flexible and willing to work in rural america. It's not quite that simple but it's almost that simple.

The ABA article you're basing this post off of is kind of shit, and not very practical. Yes, there is a huge need for attorneys in rural areas. But the people who live there are poor and live large distances between each other, where you can't just set-up shop, expect to cover overhead expenses, and earn a halfway livable salary. You especially can't do this when you're fresh out of law school with no practical experience.

Moreover, the legal employers that are located in rural america really care about ties. It's one thing if you grew up in X city with 10k people. It's another to just apply there for a job without ever having been there. Employers aren't stupid, and they realize that a person who is not from there is going to be unhappy with his personal life and leave within a couple years (which essentially costs the employers money in training in exchange for the person leaving by the time that he could actually generate the employer some money).

I'm not basing anything off some ABA article that I haven't read. I'm basing it off my life and the lives of other practicing attorneys in rural america. Many of the problems you point out are real, but my point is that the competition for jobs in in rural america is much less intense than in metro america. Grades hardly matter and usually don't matter at all. Write a cover letter about how you want to live out there and offer to drive over for an informational interview. Boom, screener.

This is relevant to the thread because OP has a 2.91.

But aren't rural places concerned with ties and worried about folks jumping ship after a few years and heading for greener pastures? I too have a modest GPA (albeit above a 3) and am looking at rural Legal Aid/PD.

[XxSpyKEx]

Be geographically flexible and willing to work in rural america. It's not quite that simple but it's almost that simple.

The ABA article you're basing this post off of is kind of shit, and not very practical. Yes, there is a huge need for attorneys in rural areas. But the people who live there are poor and live large distances between each other, where you can't just set-up shop, expect to cover overhead expenses, and earn a halfway livable salary. You especially can't do this when you're fresh out of law school with no practical experience.

Moreover, the legal employers that are located in rural america really care about ties. It's one thing if you grew up in X city with 10k people. It's another to just apply there for a job without ever having been there. Employers aren't stupid, and they realize that a person who is not from there is going to be unhappy with his personal life and leave within a couple years (which essentially costs the employers money in training in exchange for the person leaving by the time that he could actually generate the employer some money).

Many of the problems you point out are real, but my point is that the competition for jobs in in rural america is much less intense than in metro america. Grades hardly matter and usually don't matter at all. Write a cover letter about how you want to live out there and offer to drive over for an informational interview. Boom, screener.

I mean, yeah, if (1) you have strong ties to a rural area and (2) an employer is hiring in that area, then you have a decent shot at it, even without great grades. The likelihood of (1) and (2) is very low, though. And you'll have a very difficult time convincing an employer that you'll live in a place like Benton, IL long-term if don't have ties there. I think OP's would be better focusing his efforts elsewhere in that situation.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think it is *possible* to convince a small town you want to be there, mostly because I know a couple of people who've done this. (Not droves of people, and each case is sort of quirky, but it's possible.) In some places where there are shortages of lawyers, they can't really afford to hold out for local kids - they just need anyone. I'm not saying it's going to be a high-reward strategy, but depending what else you have to do, there's no harm in putting some time into it, even without ties, if you really are willing to go there and willing to do some of the legwork to show that.

[BlueLotus]

I think it is *possible* to convince a small town you want to be there, mostly because I know a couple of people who've done this. (Not droves of people, and each case is sort of quirky, but it's possible.) In some places where there are shortages of lawyers, they can't really afford to hold out for local kids - they just need anyone. I'm not saying it's going to be a high-reward strategy, but depending what else you have to do, there's no harm in putting some time into it, even without ties, if you really are willing to go there and willing to do some of the legwork to show that.

This is credited. I got an interview at a legal aid org on a Native American reservation in a state I've never stepped foot in. I go to an urban school in the northeast.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Yes rural employers are concerned that you will leave. The job I work my boss told me he wanted at least a year and a half out of me. He was having problems with new hires from my school only staying 6 months or 1 yr. I'll probably leave after my commitment is up. I think you can level with employers and say look, I don't know where I'll be in 5 years, could be here, could be there, but I stick to my commitments and if you say two years I'll be here two years. This won't always work though. In fact with most firm jobs it won't work. They want someone who wants to be there. It's tough.

But do what I said with the cover letters and you'll get screeners. Then sell the employer. It's better than not getting any interviews in the big city.

The entire point is that with a 2.91 the OP is still in fine shape to work as a lawyer, no matter what some TLS 0L parrots back about an article he read. Getting a job takes people skills, genuine connections, hard work, decent writing, lots of repetition and plenty of luck. Outside of Biglaw and clerking, the importance of grades is massively overstated on this website, because 90% of the people on here are just repeating something that originated from a 0L or from a non-lawyer.

[BlueLotus]

OP, how's the hustle going? Did you secure a school-year externship?

[Anonymous User]

OP, how's the hustle going? Did you secure a school-year externship?

Thanks for following up. Applying to lots of different places. Do you think for someone like me, small personal injury during school year is a good option?

[BlueLotus]

OP, how's the hustle going? Did you secure a school-year externship?

Thanks for following up. Applying to lots of different places. Do you think for someone like me, small personal injury during school year is a good option?

Yes, also look into small private firms doing family law or criminal defense or immigration. Look at DA/PD/Legal Aid, most of which are not prestige-hungry, either. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. No chance I can intern with a federal judge, right? Should i even bother answering an ad placed through our school? Actually, most of my experience is with judges at this point. Bad idea to get another one?

[BlueLotus]

OP here. No chance I can intern with a federal judge, right? Should i even bother answering an ad placed through our school? Actually, most of my experience is with judges at this point. Bad idea to get another one?

Yeah. Get more diverse experiences. Despite good rapport with judges, you are unlikely to land a clerkship with a sub-3.0 and no journal. Again, look at PD/DA/Legal Aid/small firms because these sorts of places are more likely to hire you post grad.

[bk1]

You definitely could get an externship with a federal judge. But I wouldn't go after something like that since those externships are a dime a dozen and you need to focus on whatever gives you the best shot at securing a post-grad job.

[Anonymous User]

Well I did apply to legal aid and some other pd stuff, but honestly my heart just isn't in defense, I'd truly hate the job. I've put the most effort into da offices I can travel to or have some connection to, would be a dream job and some have told me my grades won't neccesarily bar the door

[AReasonableMan]

It's unlikely that a 3.0 versus a 2.9 matters unless someone has a strict 3.0 cutoff. Assuming this is well below median, it can't hurt but isn't likely to significantly help. As far as the value of connections, that's a huge variable depending on who the connections are and how strong they are. If someone running a small firm thinks very highly of you they could give you a job just because they like you. In all likelihood, now is the time to call in any and all favors.

[SFB222]

I wanted to chime in and provide my own experience. I graduated from a Tier 2 school, in a large secondary market, with a similar GPA as OP. Initially, after graduation, I had no job offers but had the financial luxury to volunteer at various non-profit/gov't agency legal departments. This lasted about one whole year before I landed a solid law firm associate position through a connection (they never asked for my grades bc the connection was a partner). While the pay was initially somewhat low, I worked very hard and after about two years moved to a much better firm with a national practice. However, this opportunity was also secured with a connection and there was no discussion of grades (normally, the firm hires top of class/fed clerks). So this is all to say that through the right connections, you can land a good paying job. With that said, you better maintain those connections because if you ever want to lateral, they still look at those grades until maybe you're a senior associate or so.

So yes, through connections you can get a solid law firm job (except perhaps at the "market" paying biglaw firms). Oh, one more thing, I'm also really good at being a lawyer so that certainly helps.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks all for the encouragement and advice. I am taking the advice and applying for internships/externships with any small firm I see, that either hopefully has the potential for a job opening after or real skills development. I still haven't got the consensus here, whether I should actively AVOID emailing judges for my last possible internship opportunity. I guess I haven't been convinced out of the idea that interning with a judge has the POSSIBILITY of connections, and real skills (writing, decorum, arbitration) that could translate to good firm work. The thing is at my school at least, if the judge extends an offer for an internship you've got to take it.

I'd feel lucky to get something in the private sector internship wise, (an older lawyer, once told me "you need some firms on your resume") but if i just cant get it to work out for spring, I should try my luck with a judge. What to do?

[SFB222]

Thanks all for the encouragement and advice. I am taking the advice and applying for internships/externships with any small firm I see, that either hopefully has the potential for a job opening after or real skills development. I still haven't got the consensus here, whether I should actively AVOID emailing judges for my last possible internship opportunity. I guess I haven't been convinced out of the idea that interning with a judge has the POSSIBILITY of connections, and real skills (writing, decorum, arbitration) that could translate to good firm work. The thing is at my school at least, if the judge extends an offer for an internship you've got to take it.

I'd feel lucky to get something in the private sector internship wise, (an older lawyer, once told me "you need some firms on your resume") but if i just cant get it to work out for spring, I should try my luck with a judge. What to do?

Working for a judge during law school looks good. Even better, as your "older lawyer" friend told you, to work for a law firm. I think the second best option might be working for the AGs office or some municipality legal department. You'll get good experience there. I'd be wary of really crap small firms/solos. If you start somewhere crappy, future employers wont respect you.

[Anonymous User]

how to gauge whether a firm is crappy to the point of being toxic? if small and crappy pay 60K or over, I'm happy...

[SFB222]

I'd say its more related to practice areas. Generally, personal injury/SSI/workers comp/premises liability type practices are looked down upon.

[Anonymous User]

Thats a shame, PI seems quite interesting, and from what I hear the money is decent most of the time. By decent I mean between 60-70K starting a lot of the time. Hopefully you do learn valuable skills. I"ve interned with basic civil term judges, its all PI and insurance most of the time. (besides the zoning disputes).

[SFB222]

Try 40k-50k.

[AReasonableMan]

how to gauge whether a firm is crappy to the point of being toxic? if small and crappy pay 60K or over, I'm happy...

Martindale, but probably speaking to any friends you have at other firms in the area. It's dangerous and poor taste to bad mouth others, but most people would disregard these concerns for a friend. You could also google the main lawyers' names. If there's consistently poor feedback from people who don't seem crazy, or prior disbarment. Most likely, if they are small, can be a newly minted JD 60k, and prioritize the best fit and potential over saving money (many would work for peanuts) then they are probably doing something right.

[Anonymous User]

is working for a solo practitioner a scarlet letter, or a great opportunity to learn? or both? lol.

[SFB222]

US News best law firm rankings is another resource. Seems legit.