Should I drop out? Forum

[smallfirmassociate]

You've admitted, for the most part, that you don't really care about being a lawyer. You have one specific outcome, and every other possibility doesn't seem to appeal to you.

For that reason primarily, and the possibility of striking out as a secondary reason, I say to drop out and pursue the career in business that you seem to want more than a career in law. Consider that even if you get the law job you want, there's no guarantee you'll like it, then you're in a position where you spent a lot of time and money to enter a field where there is literally no job you want.

You're maybe right. The hurdle is getting into a worthwhile job with my current resume - would be very difficult. Overcoming the internships I have + 1 year essential resume gap is a scary prospect. Not saying impossible, but big hurdle to leap for sure.

For the record, I wanted to be a lawyer when I applied & matriculated. Seeing "the belly of the beast" has changed my mind significantly.

Regarding your final point, I figured. It's a mature thing to recognize it and admit it. I suspect 2/3rds of people in your position will realize that sooner or later. That could be next year, when they graduate, their first three months on the job, or in three or five years, but they'll realize it.

[AReasonableMan]

What is it about business that you like? It's possible that the interests overlap into things you can realistically get now if it's learning about different industries, and the corporate work environment.

[Anonymous User]

OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

My grades were definitely not discounted immediately. I had four V10 callbacks (which is way more than the zero I got last year), and I had way more NYC screeners. I underperformed my numbers, but more than zero of that is probably interviewing skills (I'm better then last year, but still not great). One of my V5 screeners was the same interviewer as last year. He remembered me and was very impressed by what I had done in the intervening year, and I got a callback.

Different firms treat it differently I'm sure. Some want law review and thought it was weird that I didn't have it with my grades. Some probably discounted my 2L grades. However, I know the firm I'm working for this summer did not do that, and that they really like JD/MBAs. I'm pretty pleased with my position right now given that I struck out last year.

That's crazy to hear you went from really nothing to a V5 Callback - what business school did you attend? The b-schools attached to law schools ranked 15-20 are pretty different in quality...

I honestly think the MBA hurt me more than it helped me at most firms except for one critical factor: it made me a "2L" again for purposes of OCI. It let me get back in the normal big law hiring timeline and get a second bite at the apple. A number of interviewers seemed to question my commitment to law, and one straight up said that he didn't think the joint degree was useful (even though he had a joint degree in public policy *cough* Sul Crom). I do think the offer I ended up taking is from a firm/office that does value JD/MBAs, though, but for most firms I don't think it helped.

Also, I go to WUSTL.

[Anonymous User]

OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

My grades were definitely not discounted immediately. I had four V10 callbacks (which is way more than the zero I got last year), and I had way more NYC screeners. I underperformed my numbers, but more than zero of that is probably interviewing skills (I'm better then last year, but still not great). One of my V5 screeners was the same interviewer as last year. He remembered me and was very impressed by what I had done in the intervening year, and I got a callback.

Different firms treat it differently I'm sure. Some want law review and thought it was weird that I didn't have it with my grades. Some probably discounted my 2L grades. However, I know the firm I'm working for this summer did not do that, and that they really like JD/MBAs. I'm pretty pleased with my position right now given that I struck out last year.

That's crazy to hear you went from really nothing to a V5 Callback - what business school did you attend? The b-schools attached to law schools ranked 15-20 are pretty different in quality...

I honestly think the MBA hurt me more than it helped me at most firms except for one critical factor: it made me a "2L" again for purposes of OCI. It let me get back in the normal big law hiring timeline and get a second bite at the apple. A number of interviewers seemed to question my commitment to law, and one straight up said that he didn't think the joint degree was useful (even though he had a joint degree in public policy *cough* Sul Crom). I do think the offer I ended up taking is from a firm/office that does value JD/MBAs, though, but for most firms I don't think it helped.

Also, I go to WUSTL.

I did something similar. I took a year's leave to work on something else and got to do OCI again as a 2L. I ended up doing a lot better than I did my first time (as in I actually got an offer). I did underperform my numbers but I did the same last year. This gave me another year and another chance and this time it worked. But I had a decently compelling story as to why I did and most of my callback and screener interviews ended up with me talking about what I had done, often in positive terms for the interviewers. I think it hurt me a bit, but it also helped me with certain interviewers, one of who gave me the callback that turned into the offer.

[Anonymous User]

What is it about business that you like? It's possible that the interests overlap into things you can realistically get now if it's learning about different industries, and the corporate work environment.

I've realized I really want to be involved in a strategy role in a particular industry. Want to be a part of building something interesting. Ended up upper management eventually also sounds interesting.

[Anonymous User]

No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

Is applying for D.Ct. clerkships in jan too late?

January 2015 for 2016 clerkships? No absolutely not; that's honestly pretty early.


I was in a similar position to OP this time last year. Top 20% at a peer school, took a year off after undergrad but no w/e during that time so effectively a k-JD. I got tons of screeners last year but only 3 callbacks (one of which was in mid-October, so it's definitely too soon to give up hope). I had a couple of callbacks for boutique and mid-size firms later in the year, as well. However, I didn't end up getting a firm job, but I did luck into a Fortune 500 in-house gig in mid-May that paid pretty decently (plus I can work part-time during the year).

I gave up on big law around late October and focused on classes and I ended up doing very well (I'm now top 5%). I spent winter break calling up D.Ct chambers and asking when/if they were hiring clerks for 2015 and I sent out hundreds of paper applications in late January/early February, and ended up getting a decent number of interviews. Nothing panned out though, so I started looking into JD/MBA. Fortunately they were still accepting applications after 2nd semester, so I studied for the GMAT and crushed it, got a better scholarship than I have at the law school, and ended up committing around July 25th (after I heard back from my last clerkship interview). During that time, I was applying through OCI as a 2L because I would have missed all the deadlines had I waited until I knew which way I was going to go. I got tons of screeners again, and this time I got quite a few more callbacks. However, I didn't end up getting an offer until late August, and I got a 2nd (which I have accepted) at a V40 office in a secondary market. I struck out in NYC (only 1 callback from 16 screeners) and definitely underperformed top 5% at my school. Still, I'm in a much, much better position than I was at this time last year and I'm definitely glad I did it.

It sounds like OP might be more interested in MBA than I was, though. For me, it was just a way to leverage my GPA boost via a 2nd OCI.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Would you mind talking a little bit more about how you improved your grade significantly during 2L? I am facing a similar situation, so 2L grade is very important to me.

[Anonymous User]

Where possible, I picked classes I thought I would do well in and with professors I had either done well with in the past or who I knew had exams that fit my skill set. During 1L I had absolutely crushed issue spotters, so having only those and avoiding a landmine like property (which dropped me out of the top 5% on its own) helped a lot.

[AReasonableMan]

No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

Is applying for D.Ct. clerkships in jan too late?

January 2015 for 2016 clerkships? No absolutely not; that's honestly pretty early.


I was in a similar position to OP this time last year. Top 20% at a peer school, took a year off after undergrad but no w/e during that time so effectively a k-JD. I got tons of screeners last year but only 3 callbacks (one of which was in mid-October, so it's definitely too soon to give up hope). I had a couple of callbacks for boutique and mid-size firms later in the year, as well. However, I didn't end up getting a firm job, but I did luck into a Fortune 500 in-house gig in mid-May that paid pretty decently (plus I can work part-time during the year).

I gave up on big law around late October and focused on classes and I ended up doing very well (I'm now top 5%). I spent winter break calling up D.Ct chambers and asking when/if they were hiring clerks for 2015 and I sent out hundreds of paper applications in late January/early February, and ended up getting a decent number of interviews. Nothing panned out though, so I started looking into JD/MBA. Fortunately they were still accepting applications after 2nd semester, so I studied for the GMAT and crushed it, got a better scholarship than I have at the law school, and ended up committing around July 25th (after I heard back from my last clerkship interview). During that time, I was applying through OCI as a 2L because I would have missed all the deadlines had I waited until I knew which way I was going to go. I got tons of screeners again, and this time I got quite a few more callbacks. However, I didn't end up getting an offer until late August, and I got a 2nd (which I have accepted) at a V40 office in a secondary market. I struck out in NYC (only 1 callback from 16 screeners) and definitely underperformed top 5% at my school. Still, I'm in a much, much better position than I was at this time last year and I'm definitely glad I did it.

It sounds like OP might be more interested in MBA than I was, though. For me, it was just a way to leverage my GPA boost via a 2nd OCI.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Would you mind talking a little bit more about how you improved your grade significantly during 2L? I am facing a similar situation, so 2L grade is very important to me.

Not the same person, but the curve is much easier. Professors commented to me that the quality of 1L exams they have seen since the recession have improved significantly. Now the vast majority put their best foot forward 1L year, because going to a t-14 no longer guarantees a job.

The conventional wisdom at most firms is that unless you do poorly on an assignment or don't fit in, 2L grades don't matter unless there is an extreme drop. Going from law review type grades to bottom of the class grades is very unlikely, because as we all know, substantive knowledge only goes so far in law school. If you're good at taking the exams, there is a definite floor.

All of the people who are motivated by career aspirations rather than academic ones have significant less incentive unless they want to clerk. In addition, there is a psychological toll on those who strikeout. It is very hard to focus when one is worried about the stability of their future. Finally, if you are in electives with 1L's, the majority place most of their focus on the required 1L courses, and a sizable amount don't get how to take law school exams. All of this adds up to somebody who did well 1L year being able to do nothing the entire semester, and cram for a few days to get median or better.

With the exception of prestige factors like law review, I personally believe the only reason grades are important is firms use them as a measure of intellect and work ethic. These are proxies to predicting the quality of your work product. A much better proxy to predicting the quality of work product is prior work product, so once you're working somewhere it's the work product that matters. Because of this many people who did well 1L year don't try as hard. This makes it easier to boost your GPA. Personally, I like law school and like learning. However, after the job search was done, I valued time with friends and family much more than I did 1L year, and knew I could take tests cold (almost never going to class, never seeing the textbook), and do decently.

[hoos89]

Where do you go to school that 1Ls take electives with upper level students?

[smallfirmassociate]

What is it about business that you like? It's possible that the interests overlap into things you can realistically get now if it's learning about different industries, and the corporate work environment.

I've realized I really want to be involved in a strategy role in a particular industry. Want to be a part of building something interesting. Ended up upper management eventually also sounds interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

It's good to have dreams. It's even better to have backup plans.

[Anonymous User]

What is it about business that you like? It's possible that the interests overlap into things you can realistically get now if it's learning about different industries, and the corporate work environment.

I've realized I really want to be involved in a strategy role in a particular industry. Want to be a part of building something interesting. Ended up upper management eventually also sounds interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

It's good to have dreams. It's even better to have backup plans.

Haha. I guess now is when I figure out the backup plan.

[AReasonableMan]

What is it about business that you like? It's possible that the interests overlap into things you can realistically get now if it's learning about different industries, and the corporate work environment.

I've realized I really want to be involved in a strategy role in a particular industry. Want to be a part of building something interesting. Ended up upper management eventually also sounds interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

It's good to have dreams. It's even better to have backup plans.

Haha. I guess now is when I figure out the backup plan.

Just dream in multiple choice.

[Anonymous User]

This thread has been great. Will update with what I choose. Thanks all.