Claim expiring offer without one? Forum

[Mal Reynolds]

This thread is amazing.

[baal hadad]

This thread is amazing.

Someone tried this in vale of tears too

[NotMyRealName09]

In TLS fantasy land, lying is bad. In reality, no one really cares in this case. With trivial issues such as this one, people at most firms aren't waste their time checking to see if you have an offer at some other place or not. And they're definitely not going to call the State Bar. In 6 months, they won't even remember you ever interviewed there, unless you did something memorable, or if you're in such a small town that everyone knows everyone else (and I'm sure there are other exceptions).

And if you can't handle lies, you better look for another profession. A good percentage of lawyers I deal with are honest. Then there's a good percentage that stretches the truth to a ridiculous degree. There there's a small percentage that just plain out lie in a mind-boggling fashion.

Who knows what would happen if you contact the firm. Sure there's a small chance that it might hurt you, but the odds are so low, it's not worth worrying about.

Of course you can go and apply at McDonalds. Get an offer for minimum wage. Then you can say you have another offer without lying.

Actually lying is bad in reality, too. Saying no one cares in reality carries the unstated assumption that the people being lied to don't know it and thus there will be no consequences. I don't take a view of morality that looks to consequences - I believe wrong things are wrong even if no one knows they happened. It's the act that makes something wrong, not the outcome. I generally take a Kantian view of morality.

I'm a lawyer and a litigator - I see liars all the time. And when I catch them, I either call them out on the record (destroying their credibility in the eyes of the court) or make a note to never trust them. I also take care to cultivate my reputation as an honest lawyer, because that shit follows you forever.

For me, I don't view moral questions in terms of risk / reward. That's separate from the question of right / wrong. This isn't a white lie done out of politeness, such as saying you really enjoyed meeting everyone at the firm when you really didn't - this is a calculated lie done to directly manipulate a hiring decision.

By the logic quoted above, it's ok to cheat on your wife once randomly while out of town because "Sure there's a small chance that it might hurt you, but the odds are so low, it's not worth worrying about." Our understanding of morality appears to differ. And if your counter to this example is that cheating on one's wife isn't as trivial, I'd agree that some lies are bigger than others but all are wrong nevertheless.

[patogordo]

This thread is amazing.

[patogordo]

fucking "rdawkins28" username too. my bravery meter exploded.

[Mal Reynolds]

Tls has a special ability to make me hate both sides of an argument.

[NotMyRealName09]

Tls has a special ability to make me hate both sides of an argument.

This place is like picking a scab for me. I shouldn't, but dammit I'm gonna.

[Anonymous User]

During this year's OCI season, my first offer came pretty early so I basically told all the other firms I did CB I had a deadline to meet--and none of them asked which firm my offer was from.
I am not quiet concerning whether other firms would call and verify the truth of your offer. But I do think unless they really want you, giving them a deadline can only have marginal benefit.

[AReasonableMan]

From a morality perspective, it's wrong. If you ask this then the morality isn't important to you. I'm not your priest and this won't kill anyone so I don't care about your morals.

From an economic perspective, it's also wrong. The benefit isn't worth the risk. It might make you a tiny bit more attractive but that's it. The reason people with one offers normally get multiple offers is more like why someone who Cali's one class in LS has a better chance of acing another class than does another random student. The risk is they'll offer you anyway, find out, and you'll be screwed.

Hence, it's also bad from a "merely care about results" viewpoint as well.

[Anonymous User]

Of course you can go and apply at McDonalds. Get an offer for minimum wage. Then you can say you have another offer without lying.

I tried. They said I was overqualified. Applied to Taco Bell after taking off my JD from my resume and got an offer from them.

[Danger Zone]

Hey, lying dumbasses, read this (LinkRemoved). It's about jobs in banking but the same concept applies, probably moreso since bankers don't have to worry about C&F.

[Tanicius]

Hey, lying dumbasses, read this (LinkRemoved). It's about jobs in banking but the same concept applies, probably moreso since bankers don't have to worry about C&F.

Seriously. If they so much as ask you where you got your other offer, you are fucked.

[SLS_AMG]

Lying is bad, even if it helps trick people into giving you what you want. Is that what you needed to know?

I mean lies are thrown around throughout the entire recruiting process. "I like litigation", for your lit boutique when really you wanted transactional. "I love city X" when really you wanted city Y. "You guys are my first choice" when they ask but really they were like your 5th. I don't want to be drawn into a big debate on lies here but I'll just say that while most people think there is generally something wrong with lying no one would ever say it is so bad that it should never be done.

There's a big difference between lying about subjective things and objective things. "I like litigation" may not be entirely true, but if that becomes your only job offer you'll still take it because you like litigation more than you like having no job. Lying about an objective thing like another job offer is something you have no control over and could become a C&F issue.

[bk1]

Lying is bad, even if it helps trick people into giving you what you want. Is that what you needed to know?

I mean lies are thrown around throughout the entire recruiting process. "I like litigation", for your lit boutique when really you wanted transactional. "I love city X" when really you wanted city Y. "You guys are my first choice" when they ask but really they were like your 5th. I don't want to be drawn into a big debate on lies here but I'll just say that while most people think there is generally something wrong with lying no one would ever say it is so bad that it should never be done.

There's a big difference between lying about subjective things and objective things. "I like litigation" may not be entirely true, but if that becomes your only job offer you'll still take it because you like litigation more than you like having no job. Lying about an objective thing like another job offer is something you have no control over and could become a C&F issue.

This. How is this even a complex concept for some people?

[lawhopeful10]

I get how risk/reward it doesn't make sense but I don't get the moral outrage here. Law firms have lied to candidates plenty, sometimes about important things like offer rates or health of the firm. Furthermore these places will can your ass in a second if they had too. It seems to me like you don't really owe them any kind of respect. Also you aren't lying about a qualification of yours, claiming an offer seems more like bluffing in cards or something. And as far as morality goes sure the act can be wrong but it matters who the lying is too in that determination. We wouldn't think a CIA agent lying about their identity to a foreign government is wrong because we don't see their authority as one the agent should be responsive too. There is a thread here on quitting a journal which seems much more morally reprehensible than this since you are leaving your friends and peers in the trenches.

[Danger Zone]

I get how risk/reward it doesn't make sense but I don't get the moral outrage here. Law firms have lied to candidates plenty, sometimes about important things like offer rates or health of the firm. Furthermore these places will can your ass in a second if they had too. It seems to me like you don't really owe them any kind of respect. Also you aren't lying about a qualification of yours, claiming an offer seems more like bluffing in cards or something. And as far as morality goes sure the act can be wrong but it matters who the lying is too in that determination. We wouldn't think a CIA agent lying about their identity to a foreign government is wrong because we don't see their authority as one the agent should be responsive too. There is a thread here on quitting a journal which seems much more morally reprehensible than this since you are leaving your friends and peers in the trenches.

Forget morals. It's just a poor choice career-wise in general.

[AReasonableMan]

I get how risk/reward it doesn't make sense but I don't get the moral outrage here. Law firms have lied to candidates plenty, sometimes about important things like offer rates or health of the firm. Furthermore these places will can your ass in a second if they had too. It seems to me like you don't really owe them any kind of respect. Also you aren't lying about a qualification of yours, claiming an offer seems more like bluffing in cards or something. And as far as morality goes sure the act can be wrong but it matters who the lying is too in that determination. We wouldn't think a CIA agent lying about their identity to a foreign government is wrong because we don't see their authority as one the agent should be responsive too. There is a thread here on quitting a journal which seems much more morally reprehensible than this since you are leaving your friends and peers in the trenches.

If you have enough power you invent the morals of the industry. It's also rare they directly a lie. Saying "we're doing great" when they're losing money is hard to prove as a lie. They're so big that some aspect of it was doing well. There's also social etiquette favoring lying. "I'm great", "you look great", "I love that new skirt", "of course I think you're beautiful."

You could say OCI is great, and be safe under social etiquette norms. The specificity is where it's hard.

[Cavalier]

This is such a stupid idea. It's unlikely anyone would find out, but if someone did, the consequences could be career-ending. I think a lot of attorneys would be inclined to report you to the bar and/or to your law school.