Feeling lost as a 1st year? Forum

[Phil Brooks]

.

[Anonymous User]

Getting a scholarship in law school is based on negotiation not academic merit; getting a job after law school is based on interviewing not academic merit; and similarly, making partner is based on connections (with clients) and not work-product merit.

The model does not all of a sudden stop once you reach the law firm.

[Anonymous User]

Getting a scholarship in law school is based on negotiation not academic merit; getting a job after law school is based on interviewing not academic merit; and similarly, making partner is based on connections (with clients) and not work-product merit.

The model does not all of a sudden stop once you reach the law firm.

(all law schools admit and give scholarships based on GPA and LSAT)

(all law firms have grade cutoffs and relax requirements for fit with candidates with particularly stellar academic credentials)

(all law firms consider work product as the most important factor in making partners)

[Br3v]

(all law firms consider work product as the most important factor in making partners)

No.

[kiwifanta]

I wanted to report back - I found it in myself to somehow go to a senior partner's office after completing an assignment for him to solicit feedback. He seemed very pleased that I was asking. It was a good moment. I would recommend this to anyone. I had a fear of (1) hearing something awful about myself and (2) being turned away with a dirty look for asking, but now, I'm going to swear by asking for feedback as often as is reasonable.

I also had a talk with a junior partner. I think that partnership differs by firm. I learned that ours separates income partners from equities, so you can definitely have a "partner" title without a book of business; you just have to be generally well-liked and produce good work, and have "potential" to get clients. Making equity, however, is based entirely on your book of business. *This is just what I was told by one income partner and it was discussing only my firm. I'm a baby lawyer and can't pretend that I know anything about how this all works in reality.*

Also, thank you re: the advice on chasing work. I definitely do not push to get more, and I think I need to, so that I can get on key cases and can prove that I can produce good work and hopefully get more of that work. I am going to try being a bit aggressive about it this week and see what happens...

Finally, during my talk with the junior partner, I learned one interesting fact about my firm: the highest-billing associate last year got the lowest bonus. Why would that be? (I didn't want to ask the partner because I didn't want to gossip about said associate and it didn't seem appropriate to pry.) This job can be so confusing, it's so hard to know when you're doing it right or wrong. How can an associate avoid being the highest biller but lowest paid?

[Skool]

I wanted to report back - I found it in myself to somehow go to a senior partner's office after completing an assignment for him to solicit feedback. He seemed very pleased that I was asking. It was a good moment. I would recommend this to anyone. I had a fear of (1) hearing something awful about myself and (2) being turned away with a dirty look for asking, but now, I'm going to swear by asking for feedback as often as is reasonable.

I also had a talk with a junior partner. I think that partnership differs by firm. I learned that ours separates income partners from equities, so you can definitely have a "partner" title without a book of business; you just have to be generally well-liked and produce good work, and have "potential" to get clients. Making equity, however, is based entirely on your book of business. *This is just what I was told by one income partner and it was discussing only my firm. I'm a baby lawyer and can't pretend that I know anything about how this all works in reality.*

Also, thank you re: the advice on chasing work. I definitely do not push to get more, and I think I need to, so that I can get on key cases and can prove that I can produce good work and hopefully get more of that work. I am going to try being a bit aggressive about it this week and see what happens...

Finally, during my talk with the junior partner, I learned one interesting fact about my firm: the highest-billing associate last year got the lowest bonus. Why would that be? (I didn't want to ask the partner because I didn't want to gossip about said associate and it didn't seem appropriate to pry.) This job can be so confusing, it's so hard to know when you're doing it right or wrong. How can an associate avoid being the highest biller but lowest paid?

I'm glad that at least partially worked out for you. Hopefully you'll make strides in building your rep in the coming weeks.

I don't understand this fixation on being partner and bonuses and other bull shit. Don't you have enough on your plate just learning to be a lawyer? Isn't it enough to focus on getting your first depositions, manage support staff, and win some motions, or whatever else it is "transactional" attorneys do? Why not just focus on building a career that's satisfying and whatever rewards come will come (or not)?

You're a lawyer, which is as far as I'm concerned one of the most awesome jobs on earth, as naive as that sounds. Partnerships and office politics are only partially in your control. You've got much more control over the skills you develop for the brief window you're an associate (whatever comes next notwithstanding). They can take away partnerships and your biglaw salary and your bonus but they can't take away the skills you develop as an attorney.

Isn't mastering your craft a good and sufficient focus for right now?

[M458]

I wanted to report back - I found it in myself to somehow go to a senior partner's office after completing an assignment for him to solicit feedback. He seemed very pleased that I was asking. It was a good moment. I would recommend this to anyone. I had a fear of (1) hearing something awful about myself and (2) being turned away with a dirty look for asking, but now, I'm going to swear by asking for feedback as often as is reasonable.

I also had a talk with a junior partner. I think that partnership differs by firm. I learned that ours separates income partners from equities, so you can definitely have a "partner" title without a book of business; you just have to be generally well-liked and produce good work, and have "potential" to get clients. Making equity, however, is based entirely on your book of business. *This is just what I was told by one income partner and it was discussing only my firm. I'm a baby lawyer and can't pretend that I know anything about how this all works in reality.*

Also, thank you re: the advice on chasing work. I definitely do not push to get more, and I think I need to, so that I can get on key cases and can prove that I can produce good work and hopefully get more of that work. I am going to try being a bit aggressive about it this week and see what happens...

Finally, during my talk with the junior partner, I learned one interesting fact about my firm: the highest-billing associate last year got the lowest bonus. Why would that be? (I didn't want to ask the partner because I didn't want to gossip about said associate and it didn't seem appropriate to pry.) This job can be so confusing, it's so hard to know when you're doing it right or wrong. How can an associate avoid being the highest biller but lowest paid?

I'm glad that at least partially worked out for you. Hopefully you'll make strides in building your rep in the coming weeks.

I don't understand this fixation on being partner and bonuses and other bull shit. Don't you have enough on your plate just learning to be a lawyer? Isn't it enough to focus on getting your first depositions, manage support staff, and win some motions, or whatever else it is "transactional" attorneys do? Why not just focus on building a career that's satisfying and whatever rewards come will come (or not)?

You're a lawyer, which is as far as I'm concerned one of the most awesome jobs on earth, as naive as that sounds. Partnerships and office politics are only partially in your control. You've got much more control over the skills you develop for the brief window you're an associate (whatever comes next notwithstanding). They can take away partnerships and your biglaw salary and your bonus but they can't take away the skills you develop as an attorney.

Isn't mastering your craft a good and sufficient focus for right now?

Skool - correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a 0L? You shouldn't be posting on this forum.

[iplulzer]

I wanted to report back - I found it in myself to somehow go to a senior partner's office after completing an assignment for him to solicit feedback. He seemed very pleased that I was asking. It was a good moment. I would recommend this to anyone. I had a fear of (1) hearing something awful about myself and (2) being turned away with a dirty look for asking, but now, I'm going to swear by asking for feedback as often as is reasonable.

I also had a talk with a junior partner. I think that partnership differs by firm. I learned that ours separates income partners from equities, so you can definitely have a "partner" title without a book of business; you just have to be generally well-liked and produce good work, and have "potential" to get clients. Making equity, however, is based entirely on your book of business. *This is just what I was told by one income partner and it was discussing only my firm. I'm a baby lawyer and can't pretend that I know anything about how this all works in reality.*

Also, thank you re: the advice on chasing work. I definitely do not push to get more, and I think I need to, so that I can get on key cases and can prove that I can produce good work and hopefully get more of that work. I am going to try being a bit aggressive about it this week and see what happens...

Finally, during my talk with the junior partner, I learned one interesting fact about my firm: the highest-billing associate last year got the lowest bonus. Why would that be? (I didn't want to ask the partner because I didn't want to gossip about said associate and it didn't seem appropriate to pry.) This job can be so confusing, it's so hard to know when you're doing it right or wrong. How can an associate avoid being the highest biller but lowest paid?

I'm glad that at least partially worked out for you. Hopefully you'll make strides in building your rep in the coming weeks.

I don't understand this fixation on being partner and bonuses and other bull shit. Don't you have enough on your plate just learning to be a lawyer? Isn't it enough to focus on getting your first depositions, manage support staff, and win some motions, or whatever else it is "transactional" attorneys do? Why not just focus on building a career that's satisfying and whatever rewards come will come (or not)?

You're a lawyer, which is as far as I'm concerned one of the most awesome jobs on earth, as naive as that sounds. Partnerships and office politics are only partially in your control. You've got much more control over the skills you develop for the brief window you're an associate (whatever comes next notwithstanding). They can take away partnerships and your biglaw salary and your bonus but they can't take away the skills you develop as an attorney.

Isn't mastering your craft a good and sufficient focus for right now?

It's amazing how this wholly reasonable and commonsensical outlook sounds so weird and exotic in contrast to the prevailing mindset around here.

The only caveat I would add is that office politics should matter to the extent that they help determine which partners to avoid. I once had a great (non-legal) job completely ruined by an awful boss, and thus learned the hard way that who you work with can make or break you.

But please, let's eschew work satisfaction for some more preftige.

[Skool]

I wanted to report back - I found it in myself to somehow go to a senior partner's office after completing an assignment for him to solicit feedback. He seemed very pleased that I was asking. It was a good moment. I would recommend this to anyone. I had a fear of (1) hearing something awful about myself and (2) being turned away with a dirty look for asking, but now, I'm going to swear by asking for feedback as often as is reasonable.

I also had a talk with a junior partner. I think that partnership differs by firm. I learned that ours separates income partners from equities, so you can definitely have a "partner" title without a book of business; you just have to be generally well-liked and produce good work, and have "potential" to get clients. Making equity, however, is based entirely on your book of business. *This is just what I was told by one income partner and it was discussing only my firm. I'm a baby lawyer and can't pretend that I know anything about how this all works in reality.*

Also, thank you re: the advice on chasing work. I definitely do not push to get more, and I think I need to, so that I can get on key cases and can prove that I can produce good work and hopefully get more of that work. I am going to try being a bit aggressive about it this week and see what happens...

Finally, during my talk with the junior partner, I learned one interesting fact about my firm: the highest-billing associate last year got the lowest bonus. Why would that be? (I didn't want to ask the partner because I didn't want to gossip about said associate and it didn't seem appropriate to pry.) This job can be so confusing, it's so hard to know when you're doing it right or wrong. How can an associate avoid being the highest biller but lowest paid?

I'm glad that at least partially worked out for you. Hopefully you'll make strides in building your rep in the coming weeks.

I don't understand this fixation on being partner and bonuses and other bull shit. Don't you have enough on your plate just learning to be a lawyer? Isn't it enough to focus on getting your first depositions, manage support staff, and win some motions, or whatever else it is "transactional" attorneys do? Why not just focus on building a career that's satisfying and whatever rewards come will come (or not)?

You're a lawyer, which is as far as I'm concerned one of the most awesome jobs on earth, as naive as that sounds. Partnerships and office politics are only partially in your control. You've got much more control over the skills you develop for the brief window you're an associate (whatever comes next notwithstanding). They can take away partnerships and your biglaw salary and your bonus but they can't take away the skills you develop as an attorney.

Isn't mastering your craft a good and sufficient focus for right now?

Skool - correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a 0L? You shouldn't be posting on this forum.

Eh, I don't see why not. I've posted commonsensically and made a good faith effort to stay on topic and provide concrete steps for OP. I also have plenty of experience in the legal field. Probably more than the average 2L OCI candidates doing collective voodoo with tea leaves.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to post here? Because I haven't been admitted to a T14 school? Why not just ignore my credentials and take my comments on their own merits?

And for the record, your post calling me out is the most off topic post to date.

[iplulzer]

Why shouldn't I be allowed to post here?

Because this: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=189981

If you have an issue with it, take that up with the mods.

[Skool]

Why shouldn't I be allowed to post here?

Because this: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=189981

If you have an issue with it, take that up with the mods.

We'll, if you want to litigate it with mods, feel free. It would be a little hall monitor-y but whatever. I would point out two things though.

1. I don't have a problem with the linked rule, you do. So I don't intend on taking anything up with them, but if you feel strongly, you should.

2. It's not immediately clear why that rule pertains to me. I'm a 0L, but I'm not really asking you questions, nor am I lost. Nor was I the one to derail the thread such that I necessitated my own removal. Again, I've been posting commonsensically (as acknowledged by OP and ipulzer) on topic, and in good faith.

[kiwifanta]

To respond to the POV regarding statements on partnership and bonuses - I didn't care so much when I started practicing and I still put my work quality first, but I commented because there has been some debate on this thread on what constitutes someone successful enough to "make it" with a firm. My long-term goal is to stick around, not stay for another 5 years and get cut, because I love where I work and I want to have actual partial ownership in this shop someday. To me, and just me, that means thinking beyond this initial phase of the first few years (where, I agree, the focus should be on learning and work product).

Skool - I appreciate advice from people from all walks of life. That said, and not to discount your (admittedly nice) advice, please understand that it is possible that it is hard to empathize with others unless you are or have been in their shoes. In this case, it would mean working at an intense firm with traditional structure where your work is constantly questioned by superiors, sometimes arbitrarily corrected, sometimes corrected because you're young and really don't get things, and always causes constant stress (I don't sleep well anymore). Add to that the three years of law school (not to mention my current mound of debt). After all of this, and after what I'm putting into my work now, would I like to earn a good bonus? Yes! And that doesn't mean I don't love what I do simply for what it is. I really, really do.

So, I don't know your background, maybe you've been there, but going from kindly advising to commenting in a condescending manner about what should and should not concern young associates re: partnership and bonuses -- it won't be taken as well from someone who isn't in the position to make those comments. I think that's part of the argument here. But I also agree that it's up to forum moderators.

That said, please, let's keep this thread productive moving forward. There's been some really valuable advice here, and I'd like to keep this here for anyone else who sees the title and feels the same and can take away some of these points too.

[A. Nony Mouse]

0Ls are not allowed to post here. Thanks for understanding.

[desertlaw]

As a corporate junior associate, I like the fact that if I don't like the team/deal that I am on, it's only going to last a few more weeks and then it'll be over with. Then I can get new/more work. There is always another time to get new/more work.

But how does this work for lit? It seems like you are on matters that last like 5 years. Once you start something, you're on it. Then you add a few more cases and your plate is full. So once you have like 3-5 cases on your plate, you are basically stuck for a few years? Tell me it's not that bad for my litigation colleagues.