Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk Forum

[thesealocust]

This thread is an endearing hair-splitting trainwreck.

It's true that DPW M&A is a smaller group relative to the M&A groups at WLRK/Skadden/Cravath/S&C/ etc, and it's also less clearly the very-most-bestest relative to other DPW corporate practices (credit, securities, etc.).

If you want an objective data point, its "rank" on chambers isn't always band 1 elite. IIRC when I was deciding on firms, DPW was "band 1" for NY M&A but "band 2" nationwide (I just checked and it looks band 1 now, so whatever). Also, god only knows what the difference between NY and nationwide rankings are for a practice like M&A, speaking of splitting hairs.

[Anonymous User]

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

Not really sure why you think the bolded is true. STB and DPW are both Band 1 in every corporate group that matters (m&a, credit, securities), and STB has more flexibility with rotations (which is actually relevant for associates).

[Anonymous User]

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

And at DPW, shared offices are laid out such that one person is sitting directly behind the other, and has full view of the front person's computer screen. I don't know about you, but that sounds awful to me.

[Anonymous User]

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

And at DPW, shared offices are laid out such that one person is sitting directly behind the other, and has full view of the front person's computer screen. I don't know about you, but that sounds awful to me.

And the glass doors/walls STB are getting so you are always in full view of everyone who walks by are sooooo appealing

[Anonymous User]

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

Not really sure why you think the bolded is true. STB and DPW are both Band 1 in every corporate group that matters (m&a, credit, securities), and STB has more flexibility with rotations (which is actually relevant for associates).

At DPW you can rotate however you want twice, and third rotations are often granted upon request.

[Anonymous User]

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

Not really sure why you think the bolded is true. STB and DPW are both Band 1 in every corporate group that matters (m&a, credit, securities), and STB has more flexibility with rotations (which is actually relevant for associates).

At DPW you can rotate however you want twice, and third rotations are often granted upon request.

Based on what I have heard from associates who work there, "however you want" is an overstatement, and I believe STB is three/four.

[Morgan12Oak]

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

Not really sure why you think the bolded is true. STB and DPW are both Band 1 in every corporate group that matters (m&a, credit, securities), and STB has more flexibility with rotations (which is actually relevant for associates).

To be fair, DPW is higher ranked and not by a few hundredths of a point either.

[thesealocust]

To be fair, DPW is higher ranked and not by a few hundredths of a point either.

...higher ranked?

Please, do tell, higher ranked by what methodology? Tell us more about these points of which you speak.

* pulls up chair *

* pours drink *

[Anonymous User]

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

Not really sure why you think the bolded is true. STB and DPW are both Band 1 in every corporate group that matters (m&a, credit, securities), and STB has more flexibility with rotations (which is actually relevant for associates).

At DPW you can rotate however you want twice, and third rotations are often granted upon request.

Only problem's I've heard of is if you want to rotate to one of the really small groups like real estate or IP where there are like 5 associates. You want credit, M&A, or cap markets, you'll get a rotation in one of them (for M&A, you might not get it the first rotation, but you'll get it the second). For everything else not getting a rotation is unheard of.

Based on what I have heard from associates who work there, "however you want" is an overstatement, and I believe STB is three/four.

[Morgan12Oak]

To be fair, DPW is higher ranked and not by a few hundredths of a point either.

...higher ranked?

Please, do tell, higher ranked by what methodology? Tell us more about these points of which you speak.

* pulls up chair *

* pours drink *

An indeterminate number of associates ranked DPW probably a number or two higher on a 1-10 scale. Gap between DPW/STB is similar to the gap between S&C/DPW, and while they are all "peers" a number of associates at least felt some relative difference between all 3.

Just thought one BS point deserved another.

[Anonymous User]

To be fair, DPW is higher ranked and not by a few hundredths of a point either.

...higher ranked?

Please, do tell, higher ranked by what methodology? Tell us more about these points of which you speak.

* pulls up chair *

* pours drink *

An indeterminate number of associates ranked DPW probably a number or two higher on a 1-10 scale. Gap between DPW/STB is similar to the gap between S&C/DPW, and while they are all "peers" a number of associates at least felt some relative difference between all 3.

Just thought one BS point deserved another.

Right, I cite chambers and a structural difference between rotations at the two firms, and you cite...."points."

[Morgan12Oak]

To be fair, DPW is higher ranked and not by a few hundredths of a point either.

...higher ranked?

Please, do tell, higher ranked by what methodology? Tell us more about these points of which you speak.

* pulls up chair *

* pours drink *

An indeterminate number of associates ranked DPW probably a number or two higher on a 1-10 scale. Gap between DPW/STB is similar to the gap between S&C/DPW, and while they are all "peers" a number of associates at least felt some relative difference between all 3.

Just thought one BS point deserved another.

Right, I cite chambers and a structural difference between rotations at the two firms, and you cite...."points."

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell at M&A.

[Anonymous User]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

[Morgan12Oak]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

Thx. Wasn't listing every firm but appreciate the thoroughness. Was just going for the most extreme examples obviously. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to discuss at your convenience.

[Anonymous User]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

Thx. Wasn't listing every firm but appreciate the thoroughness. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to discuss at your convenience.

Aren't you the SRZ troll from that other thread? Lol. Done here.

[Morgan12Oak]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

Thx. Wasn't listing every firm but appreciate the thoroughness. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to discuss at your convenience.

Aren't you the SRZ troll from that other thread? Lol. Done here.

Aren't you that anonymous bitch from every other thread? Sorry SRZ rapes the fund practice group nationwide. Generally hard for people to accept their V5 firm fund group gets styled on by SRZ lawyers.

[thesealocust]

Sorry SRZ rapes the fund practice group nationwide. Generally hard for people to accept their V5 firm fund group gets styled on by SRZ lawyers.

Stay classy, TLS.

[Morgan12Oak]

Sorry SRZ rapes the fund practice group nationwide. Generally hard for people to accept their V5 firm fund group gets styled on by SRZ lawyers.

Stay classy, TLS.

FWIW I wasn't the SRZ troll. That was some anonymous guy. I just generally supported some of his thoughts. I don't know why it's called trolling when you talk about a firm's practice group (widely known to be the best). Trolling would be if i talked about some random firm being the best at M&A who no ones ever heard of.

[thesealocust]

OK. Look, I don't usually go all Social Justice Warrior on people in the employment forum, but my snark was about you referring to practice groups "raping" one another, not in any substantive way engaging with your opinions on that firm or that practice.

[jbagelboy]

did someone just cite vault as an objective rankings measure in this thread? to show #5 beats out #6, of all things, when these ratings shift from year to year? christ

[jbagelboy]

i genuinely feel sorry for the person this recruiting season who will go to simpson over cleary, or skadden over s&c, or s&c over davis polk, ect., for the sole reason that it was placed a particular way in a survey of associate opinions this year, just to see it reversed in next years' survey. they will spent the next year feeling such a crushing sense of shame

[Anonymous User]

i genuinely feel sorry for the person this recruiting season who will go to simpson over cleary, or skadden over s&c, or s&c over davis polk, ect., for the sole reason that it was placed a particular way in a survey of associate opinions this year, just to see it reversed in next years' survey. they will spent the next year feeling such a crushing sense of shame

This. If you don't have a compelling reason to pick one over the other, then go with the firm you liked the most..

[KaNa1986]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

Thx. Wasn't listing every firm but appreciate the thoroughness. Was just going for the most extreme examples obviously. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to discuss at your convenience.

What are the best M&A groups for associates (considering deal volume, deal complexity, early responsibility for associates, lean staffing, etc.)? Is it something like Wachtell, S&C/Cravath, DPW/Simpson/Skadden? It seems to me that who you work with at a firm matters more than which firm you work at.

[Neal Patrick Harris]

OK. Look, I don't usually go all Social Justice Warrior on people in the employment forum, but my snark was about you referring to practice groups "raping" one another, not in any substantive way engaging with your opinions on that firm or that practice.

TSL continues to be my favorite poster

[Anonymous User]

To be fair, tier 1 is tier 1 but not all tier 1's are equal. No one would argue that STB cap markets is as good as DPW or that DPW is as good as Cravath/Wachtell/Skadden/Simpson at M&A.

Fixed

Thx. Wasn't listing every firm but appreciate the thoroughness. Was just going for the most extreme examples obviously. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to discuss at your convenience.

What are the best M&A groups for associates (considering deal volume, deal complexity, early responsibility for associates, lean staffing, etc.)? Is it something like Wachtell, S&C/Cravath, DPW/Simpson/Skadden? It seems to me that who you work with at a firm matters more than which firm you work at.

No. Arguably Wachtell is #1 if you consider pay. Other than that, no meaningful distinction for the "best" associate experience in the v10. Edit: and that's the same for cap markets and credit among the firms that actually have those practice groups.

The most meaningful distinction for associates will be where you fit in best, and that is completely subjective.