What firms would you take over Cravath? Forum

[nickelanddime]

I don't even understand the premise of this question. How much Vault whoring do you need to have internalized to ask it?

If you want to do bank regulatory work, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do public securities work, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do PE, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do FIG m&a, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do project finance, you don't want Cravath. If you don't want to work at a firm where partners have private suites guarded by their secretaries, you don't want Cravath.

Not sure why this is even a question.

Disclaimer: S&C summer

How many law students - before they even start 2L - know (and have a reasonable basis to know) that they want to FIG M&A, project finance, or public securities?

[KidStuddi]

I mean, I really don't think Cravath is materially worse in terms of hours/intensity than any other "top" firm in a major city. It's possible it's more uniform than some others (i.e. literally everyone is overwhelmed instead of just most people?) but even that I'm skeptical of.

Otherwise it's a great firm and does great work, and the people don't seem horrible. It's just intense. I literally almost worked there - I was choosing between CSM and one other place, and agonized for a long time.

I thought the people looked haggard as hell. Like they made no effort to hide the fact that they were beat; almost as if they wore it as a badge of honor. More likely they were probably just too exhausted to give a fuck. It's an amazing firm for sure, but I genuinely got the impression that they had no qualms about working their associates into the ground. At least in D.C. most firms pretend to care about work-life balance.

As of mid-June 13 Cravath first years had already quit, and plenty of people there, including one who posts regularly here, have averaged upwards of 300 billables a month this year.

300 a month on average is absurdly high. I almost have to think that's hyperbole.

[Emma.]

I would never accept an offer at Cravath. I would rather do DUI defense.

This.

[Emma.]

300 a month on average is absurdly high. I almost have to think that's hyperbole.

Eh. I have friends who have billed 1800 in the last 6 months at firms in NorCal.

[KidStuddi]

300 a month on average is absurdly high. I almost have to think that's hyperbole.

Eh. I have friends who have billed 1800 in the last 6 months at firms in NorCal.

And here I was thinking I knew what it was to be a gunner. I can't imagine how that's sustainable unless a lot of it is coming from travel.

[Anonymous User]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

[Anonymous User]

I simply would not (and didn't) accept an offer from Cravath.

[eleemosynary2]

300 a month on average is absurdly high. I almost have to think that's hyperbole.

Eh. I have friends who have billed 1800 in the last 6 months at firms in NorCal.

Uhhh, any chance you could out the firm(s)? I'm...asking for a friend.

[Anonymous User]

I would never accept an offer at Cravath. I would rather do DUI defense.

This.

Seriously. I'll never understand the reason people go to Cravath. Working Wachtell hours for 1/10th the bonus sounds great! If I could pay my loans back in prestige, I'd be all over them. I just can't imagine the exit opps from the sweatiest of sweatshops are better than those from Skadden/S&C/Cleary etc.

It just pisses me off that law school preftige whores continue to allow Cravath to work them harder than other firms without paying them for it. But I guess some people just like donating all their time to pad the pockets of partners.

[KidStuddi]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

Hours through June of '14?

[Anonymous User]

Almost all.

[jbagelboy]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

For the record I actually liked the associates I met at Cravath during my CB and follow up, but jesus christ. I admire you but I couldn't do it with most of the rotation partners there. Not to say the hours are necessarily worse, but not being able to step off a case or boss I hated for 18 months.. Fuck man. I've had enough shitty bosses to know that road.

[mr.hands]

I would never accept an offer at Cravath. I would rather do DUI defense.

This.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

To add to the myriad reasons mentioned in this thread, you might pick a place where you have an ice cube's chance in hell of making partner (e.g. a Jones Day type) over Cravath. That's a little more tangible than Cravath summers who say "But exit options!" as though the grand majority of them personally knew ex-Cravath associates when went in-house at F100, or even had any clue what in-house counsel does.

That's not to endorse the idea that Cravath deserves any special kind of shit for the rotation system or having partners and associates on different floors or whatever. It's a good firm that provides good opportunities and 95% of the problems people have with it are the same problems that are omnipresent in Biglaw.

[First Offense]

I also honestly don't like the obsession with prestige in law firm hiring around here sometimes. I just think it's stupid when we have threads like "I'm considering a V5 offer or a V10 offer, which would you suggest?"

This isn't law school where you are spending three years in an area with the express purpose of getting a job, and an objective analysis can provide you with clear data that tells you what the wisest choice is. You're going to be working 10+ hours a day, presumably for more than three years (but lol, yeah right), and attempting to have a life outside of it as well, and while there are varying levels of prestige, there are numerous rational reasons why picking a lower ranked firm makes sense over a higher ranked firm. So yeah, I can think of a lot of reasons to not work at Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

Could you please elaborate? Some of us are in the process of making this decision and having a data point from inside the firm is very valuable (I was prepared for another level of horror when I met some associates / partners but unless they laid it on thick it didn't seem half as bad as TLS makes it out to be).

[Anonymous User]

lmao at everyone here saying the hours at cravath are so much worse. i'm at a v10 in NYC and i can tell you its basically the exact same here. through july 2014 i'm at 1800 hours and thats not really a pace thats turning eyes either

[Morgan12Oak]

As of mid-June 13 Cravath first years had already quit, and plenty of people there, including one who posts regularly here, have averaged upwards of 300 billables a month this year.

So I guess the answer is quite a few.

I chose a lower ranked firm over Cravath and I liked Cravath's people and work. It's just obvious that the hours are on another level.

Nominate this thread for most retarded post of the year. Not only is it making up a bunch of shit (oh wait, you're prob citing from a friend who heard from a friend who blew another friend), but it perpetuates the idea that hours at cravath are substantively worse than other top corporate law firms.

[Anonymous User]

I don't even understand the premise of this question. How much Vault whoring do you need to have internalized to ask it?

If you want to do bank regulatory work, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do public securities work, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do PE, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do FIG m&a, you don't want Cravath. If you want to do project finance, you don't want Cravath. If you don't want to work at a firm where partners have private suites guarded by their secretaries, you don't want Cravath.

Not sure why this is even a question.

Disclaimer: S&C summer

How many law students - before they even start 2L - know (and have a reasonable basis to know) that they want to FIG M&A, project finance, or public securities?

OP here --

If that is the case, wouldn't it cut towards choosing a firm with a broader full service practice? Say you end up not liking public M&A or related support practices (employment, tax, etc.). At Cravath you have (relatively) limited options, as compared to its peer firms.

But yes I do agree that very few rising 2L's know the exact industry/practice they want.

[sideroxylon]

the impression I get from people who work/worked at Cravath is that the best part of working at Cravath is leaving Cravath

[thesealocust]

the impression I get from people who work/worked at Cravath a large law firm is that the best part of working at Cravath a large law firm is leaving Cravath the large law firm

[Anonymous User]

lmao at everyone here saying the hours at cravath are so much worse. i'm at a v10 in NYC and i can tell you its basically the exact same here. through july 2014 i'm at 1800 hours and thats not really a pace thats turning eyes either

Can you say where?

[Nomo]

I would be weary of any firm that doesn't post average annual associate hours billed on their NALP form.

I do know someone who left Cravath after about 1 year. Very bright and hard working person. But the stress was just too much. Obviously that's anecdotal, but we have no official stats.

[sideroxylon]

the impression I get from people who work/worked at Cravath a large law firm is that the best part of working at Cravath a large law firm is leaving Cravath the large law firm

fair and totally true

[KidStuddi]

lmao at everyone here saying the hours at cravath are so much worse. i'm at a v10 in NYC and i can tell you its basically the exact same here. through july 2014 i'm at 1800 hours and thats not really a pace thats turning eyes either

1800 / 7 (~257 a month) is not the same as 1800/6 or averaging 300 hours a month. It's 10 billable hours less a week. I'd say an extra full day of billing per week is a pretty huge difference in QoL.