Why is my ratio of screeners to CB's so low? Forum

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

Not sure I agree with this. Top 5% with LR at a 100% preselect school, solid interviews that were very natural/conversational, and only 2 callbacks.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

FYI pre-selects aren't a thing at many school including (I assume) OP's and many of the posters in here. All lottery.

[JamMasterJ]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

FYI pre-selects aren't a thing at many school including (I assume) OP's and many of the posters in here. All lottery.

V has hybrid pre/lotto

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

Not sure I agree with this. Top 5% with LR at a 100% preselect school, solid interviews that were very natural/conversational, and only 2 callbacks.

Maybe. I didn't have those credentials. I have always done well socially, but am the worst interviewer, and had around a 40-50% CB rate. Based off of the logic being posited here I'm a great interviewer, but I am not. I will say that these things are curved, though. If you're having a great conversation that could just mean the interviewer is a great conversationalist so everyone has great conversations. If the interviewer is twitching and cannot hold a conversation but you manage a mediocre conversation then you've had a good interview.

[Anonymous User]

You really need to find a strength and sell it. I'm like you - nothing about me stands out (lower T14, top 1/3rd, not very good at interviewing) but I have 3 V50 CBs so far after 17 screeners. I have some work experience that I personally don't think is anything to brag about, but I haven't got anything else to sell, so I've been acting confident about it and really pushing it in interviews, and it's getting traction. You don't have work experience but ask your contacts at law firms what they think your greatest strength is and make that your selling point.

[hoos89]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

This is totally not true, and I think is a major misconception a lot of people at lottery schools have about preselect schools. Regardless of whether it's 100% preselect, 100% lottery, or somewhere in between, the firm is only going to call back so many people. Preselect can actually make it difficult for good but not great candidates to stand out. At my T20, it seems like about the same 20-30 people get the great majority of the interviews. Essentially, a lot of firms just rank order resumes in a stack and take off the top X students, plus maybe a few with lower grades but an otherwise compelling resume. This process can make it tough for the people who get interviews but are at the low end of those 20-30 people in terms of grades. Essentially, if you're the 20th highest GPA out of 20 people picked, you're going to have a really tough time getting the callback. In a lottery system, the person with the 20th highest GPA in the class will not be competing against most of the remaining top 20 during every single interview.

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

This is totally not true, and I think is a major misconception a lot of people at lottery schools have about preselect schools. Regardless of whether it's 100% preselect, 100% lottery, or somewhere in between, the firm is only going to call back so many people. Preselect can actually make it difficult for good but not great candidates to stand out. At my T20, it seems like about the same 20-30 people get the great majority of the interviews. Essentially, a lot of firms just rank order resumes in a stack and take off the top X students, plus maybe a few with lower grades but an otherwise compelling resume. This process can make it tough for the people who get interviews but are at the low end of those 20-30 people in terms of grades. Essentially, if you're the 20th highest GPA out of 20 people picked, you're going to have a really tough time getting the callback. In a lottery system, the person with the 20th highest GPA in the class will not be competing against most of the remaining top 20 during every single interview.

This makes perfect sense. Wow, I am that person at the bottom of that stack of resumes. Was literally the same 25-30 people at OCI, and those of us at the bottom of that group are standing out in the cold.

[Pikappraider]

obviously your not nearly as good as an interviewer as you thought.

[09042014]

That's how it works in lottery too. Top of the class gets a huge percent of the callbacks. That probably changes for school to school, but at northwestern it was top 15% ish that would get over 5 cbs. Everyone else gets 1-4 which turns into 0-2 offers.

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

This is totally not true, and I think is a major misconception a lot of people at lottery schools have about preselect schools. Regardless of whether it's 100% preselect, 100% lottery, or somewhere in between, the firm is only going to call back so many people. Preselect can actually make it difficult for good but not great candidates to stand out. At my T20, it seems like about the same 20-30 people get the great majority of the interviews. Essentially, a lot of firms just rank order resumes in a stack and take off the top X students, plus maybe a few with lower grades but an otherwise compelling resume. This process can make it tough for the people who get interviews but are at the low end of those 20-30 people in terms of grades. Essentially, if you're the 20th highest GPA out of 20 people picked, you're going to have a really tough time getting the callback. In a lottery system, the person with the 20th highest GPA in the class will not be competing against most of the remaining top 20 during every single interview.

This makes perfect sense. Wow, I am that person at the bottom of that stack of resumes. Was literally the same 25-30 people at OCI, and those of us at the bottom of that group are standing out in the cold.

This seems coincidental. Do you really think that they care if you have a 3.5 or 3.45? They're going to pick who they like more once you both have the interview. Maybe the person with the 3.5 has nicer eyes than you, or was a paralegal. Statistically, if you had the same GPA as your friend, and your friend got a CB over you at Firm A, they would be favored to get a CB over you at Firm B as well.

[09042014]

Lol at valuing a paralegal.

[Anonymous User]

My experience last year was that if you were preselected, it's really just a screener. Just not standing out in a bad way is enough to get a CB. For lottery and special requests it's different, and much more difficult. The # of screeners is not relevant. I'd rather have 5 preselects than 15 lottery interviews if I was trying to get one offer.

This is totally not true, and I think is a major misconception a lot of people at lottery schools have about preselect schools. Regardless of whether it's 100% preselect, 100% lottery, or somewhere in between, the firm is only going to call back so many people. Preselect can actually make it difficult for good but not great candidates to stand out. At my T20, it seems like about the same 20-30 people get the great majority of the interviews. Essentially, a lot of firms just rank order resumes in a stack and take off the top X students, plus maybe a few with lower grades but an otherwise compelling resume. This process can make it tough for the people who get interviews but are at the low end of those 20-30 people in terms of grades. Essentially, if you're the 20th highest GPA out of 20 people picked, you're going to have a really tough time getting the callback. In a lottery system, the person with the 20th highest GPA in the class will not be competing against most of the remaining top 20 during every single interview.

This makes perfect sense. Wow, I am that person at the bottom of that stack of resumes. Was literally the same 25-30 people at OCI, and those of us at the bottom of that group are standing out in the cold.

I mean honestly it all comes down to the interview unless your grades are either exceptional or awful. I have been fortunate enough to pull some callbacks at firms that are not in my strike zone at all this cycle soley because of interviewing. I am 100% positive that I was in the bottom 25% if not worse of gpas these firms were looking at all day at oci. You really need to show a solid combination of: enthusiasm for their firm (you need to make it seem like their firm is your number one choice and have reasons to back it up); you need to be able to hold a conversation; and do not try to over sell/over inflate your achievements. Odds are that if you are applying for a summer associate position, you have not achieved anything that will be legitimately impressive to a partner at a top law firm.

[Anonymous User]

Lol at valuing a paralegal.

Just meant token corporate experience vs. k-jd. Why are paralegals so undervalued, though? There is some overlap (showing up, long hours).

[09042014]

Lol at valuing a paralegal.

Just meant token corporate experience vs. k-jd. Why are paralegals so undervalued, though? There is some overlap (showing up, long hours).

Big law parelegals are useless.

[hoos89]

I'm not saying the interview isn't relevant at all. I'm just saying it's way more difficult, on average, to get a callback if you have a lower GPA. GPA is just such an easy and objective way to differentiate candidates who are otherwise difficult to distinguish. If you are at the bottom of the pile GPA-wise, it's a lot more difficult to interview your way into the "Yes" pile, especially when there are only one or two slots available. You might have a great interview, but if two people with better GPAs also had great interviews, then there's a pretty good chance they will get callbacks before you.

Do you really think that they care if you have a 3.5 or 3.45?

Kind of a straw man. Also at my school .05 is potentially the difference between top 1/3 and top 1/5, so yes I do think they would care (although I'm pretty sure 3.5 is below our median...sooo much grade inflation).

[Anonymous User]

Just thought I'd throw in my experience. I think its more important to be personable than anything else. I'm a transfer student into the t13 from a school in the t40s (I was only just barely over top10% at my old school), definitely not in the same grades league as someone in the top 3rd of a t13. That being said, I have 9 cbs in v50. I found that researching the firms was much less important than trying to paint yourself as a kind and patient person. These people are looking for others to hang out with for 12 hours a day. My conversion rate actually went up when I stopped trying to sell myself and just tried to act as the best version of myself.

[hoos89]

Way too small a sample size to really tell if your conversion rate went up when you made some change. Also, I think you may be understating top 10% at a T40. Blatant GULC trolling.

Again: is being a good interviewer important? Yes. Do grades cease to matter at the screener stage? Absolutely not.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Something to remember is that if you're not at a T14 (so usually if you're at a preselect school, bar V), you're not competing for callbacks only with people at your school, but people in the T14. Maybe a firm interviewing at Columbia is going to callback a set number of Columbia people, but at some preselect schools, just because the firm shows up and does screeners doesn't mean they really intend to hire many/any SAs from that school.

[Anonymous User]

Way too small a sample size to really tell if your conversion rate went up when you made some change. Also, I think you may be understating top 10% at a T40. Blatant GULC trolling.

Again: is being a good interviewer important? Yes. Do grades cease to matter at the screener stage? Absolutely not.

Yes, top 10% at a t-40 is better than top 1/3 at MVP. The evidence for this is that you would have been more competitive for CCN than top third at MVP. I do disagree with the sentiment about grades. If both people are above the cutoff then it's almost always just interviewing. This isn't to say that the grades are irrelevant, but if the firm has a 3.5 cutoff, a 3.7 vs. a 3.6 isn't that relevant. Although certain to be shot down, students would be better served by having a surveillance camera filming the interview that a CSO officer reviews and tells the student about. This would be 25x more useful than the mock interviewing garbage.

[Anonymous User]

Last year, I was top 20% at my 100% preselect school. I ended up with over 40 screeners and only got 3 callbacks (only one of which was in a major market) and 0 offers. Am I the best interviewer in the world? Clearly not. However, I added a JD/MBA and am essentially redoing the process. I also am now in the top 5%. I'm converting callbacks at a substantially better rate (already have 5, all in top 10 markets, compared to 15 rejections). I've become a somewhat better interviewer, but I'm still not great. I'm going to go ahead and say that the biggest factor here is grades. For reference, one of the callbacks I've gotten was with a firm (and interviewer) that rejected me last year, and it was pretty clear from the way the interview went that the grade increase was a major factor in my getting the callback this time around.

Last year, I was the person on the bottom of the pile grades-wise in just about every interview. Friends in the top 5 or 10% almost universally did better than I did at converting screeners, while people closer to my range (particularly those who also did not write-on to law review) tended to be more of a mix. Interviewing skills obviously mattered significantly more for people in the top 15-20%.

[jbagelboy]

I'm top 20% at GW, I (used to) generally interview well, and I'm having this problem too. A lot of my acquaintances are as well....maybe we're all awkward as fuck.

I'm top 10% at USC/UCLA and many top students have 1, maybe 2 callbacks. Some even have 0. Idk if it's the cycle or what, but this seems to be a brutal OCI.

this is a little different. top 20% at GW with only a couple CB's makes sense in this market. OP's results don't. OP: stay confident. Depending on the firms you bid, some CB times are later. How many ding emails have you received? You might be on the "HOLD" list for some firms due to your lack of experience, but this isn't a death sentence.

To the top 10% at CCN: which firms did you bid? If you included the NY firms with large class sizes (50+), you should be auto-CB. IF you only bid SF or DC or something, then yea.. you could have very few to no callbacks. My friends with strong grades bidding SF or DC definitely don't have as many bites, that's just how it works. As wiz suggested, even now you could probably MM the grade sensitive NY large class size firms (Skadden, DPW, Cleary, Simpson, PW, ect) and get to the callback stage.

[brazleton]

.

[SLS_AMG]

Because your grades are nothing special, you're KJD, and you bid California.

Basically this. IDK how much K-JD matters but grades are not crazy good and California is still, despite what some say, not the easiest market.

Also I think part of the problem may be that you think you have a great "pitch." I've been preaching the gospel of being normal, not selling too hard, and just trying to have a natural conversation. Essentially the opposite of a "pitch." I think a pitch can be destructive.

Also there is no statistically possible issue here. There are no statistics in OCI. It's not law school/college admissions. It's based on whether people want to work with you and your pitch may be hurting you in that regard.

No one ever said California was an easy market. People without ties from top ten schools regularly have a lot of difficulty landing jobs in LA and SF because the class sizes are small and there are plenty of students from Stanford and Berkeley, not to mention plenty of CA residents going to Harvard and Yale (along with other top schools) trying to go back. CA firms are suspicious of pretty much everyone who isn't a native born Californian.

ETA: Being a good interviewer is in many ways the same as being a good conversationalist. It's an art, and some people are just not good at it. Practice helps, but to a large degree you simply have to be good at reading the other person's body language/nonverbal cues and mirroring them. If they're quiet or energetic, you should be too. You should closely follow what the interviewer is saying and give nonverbal cues yourself to indicate that you're listening. Focus on the questions you're being asked and read between the lines; is there a question behind the question? Make eye contact. Have a firm handshake. Nod to indicate you're following along. And never feel like you have to follow pitches or ask questions you wrote out beforehand -- adapt to the interview and the interviewer.

[Anonymous User]

I'm top 20% at GW, I (used to) generally interview well, and I'm having this problem too. A lot of my acquaintances are as well....maybe we're all awkward as fuck.

I'm top 10% at USC/UCLA and many top students have 1, maybe 2 callbacks. Some even have 0. Idk if it's the cycle or what, but this seems to be a brutal OCI.

this is a little different. top 20% at GW with only a couple CB's makes sense in this market. OP's results don't. OP: stay confident. Depending on the firms you bid, some CB times are later. How many ding emails have you received? You might be on the "HOLD" list for some firms due to your lack of experience, but this isn't a death sentence.

To the top 10% at CCN: which firms did you bid? If you included the NY firms with large class sizes (50+), you should be auto-CB. IF you only bid SF or DC or something, then yea.. you could have very few to no callbacks. My friends with strong grades bidding SF or DC definitely don't have as many bites, that's just how it works. As wiz suggested, even now you could probably MM the grade sensitive NY large class size firms (Skadden, DPW, Cleary, Simpson, PW, ect) and get to the callback stage.

Is this HOLD list a real thing? Should I have some hope? I had 20 screeners, all preselect, and have had 2 CBs and only 5 dings so far. I know other people at my school that have received dings from firms I interviewed with, whereas I have heard nothing. Does that mean my ding is likely coming, or am I potentially on this hold list?