DOJ Honors Program 2014-15 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Haven't been able to find a lot of info about this but generally speaking

1) How competitive is DOJ Honors? How competitive in regard to national security related components (I see they hire very few numbers)?

2) How does DOJ treat biglaw work? My resume (in law school) has only biglaw work (no clinics or public interest stuff) though pre-law school I had a lot of public interest including USAO. Additionally, my resume has a lot of experience related to national security stuff.

Stats: HYS, above median, probably around top 1/3 of class. I also have COA clerkship after graduation for non-feeder in non-2/9/DC circuit.

OP here-cross posted with the other govt honors thread

1) I spoke fairly directly with someone who assists in hiring for NSD (we had an attorney-friend in common). It's very competitive. You have to rank them first, which may mean passing on components that are hiring more people. There's something like two to four spots a year, and they typically take only from the best schools. Good news for you is that HYS will help you there. I don't know precisely what your NatSec experience is, but obviously that will be key in differentiating you from the other HYSCCN people applying. Being a vet helps too, if that's relevant to your situation. Your clerkship will also help.

OP here (the Navy fighter pilot turned Intel Officer, not the anon from HYS). I'm concerned now. I'm not from a T14 law school. I'm from a top-50 school, and I have a district court clerkship. I'm hoping my military background helps, but if they only hire from HYSCCN, should I even rank them?

[Anonymous User]

Haven't been able to find a lot of info about this but generally speaking

1) How competitive is DOJ Honors? How competitive in regard to national security related components (I see they hire very few numbers)?

2) How does DOJ treat biglaw work? My resume (in law school) has only biglaw work (no clinics or public interest stuff) though pre-law school I had a lot of public interest including USAO. Additionally, my resume has a lot of experience related to national security stuff.

Stats: HYS, above median, probably around top 1/3 of class. I also have COA clerkship after graduation for non-feeder in non-2/9/DC circuit.

OP here-cross posted with the other govt honors thread

1) I spoke fairly directly with someone who assists in hiring for NSD (we had an attorney-friend in common). It's very competitive. You have to rank them first, which may mean passing on components that are hiring more people. There's something like two to four spots a year, and they typically take only from the best schools. Good news for you is that HYS will help you there. I don't know precisely what your NatSec experience is, but obviously that will be key in differentiating you from the other HYSCCN people applying. Being a vet helps too, if that's relevant to your situation. Your clerkship will also help.

OP here (the Navy fighter pilot turned Intel Officer, not the anon from HYS). I'm concerned now. I'm not from a T14 law school. I'm from a top-50 school, and I have a district court clerkship. I'm hoping my military background helps, but if they only hire from HYSCCN, should I even rank them?

They typically take from the top-top schools, but I think your intel experience and your vet status will likely lead to them considering you anyway. There's a lot of ex-military people in NSD, and intel experience isn't something most law students have.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, looks like you have info, would you mind if I pm'ed you for more info?

I'm the anon you quoted. It's not that I don't want to help or give you more info, but for you to pm me would kind of require me...not being anonymous. And nothing super-sensitive about my personal information is out there, but revealing who I am could reveal the attorneys I talked to to people who know a bit about me, and I'm not all that comfortable with that.

OK. I'm the OP who asked to PM you. In that case I'll just ask the questions here then.

Generally, speaking then, would bidding on a bigger department, like civil or something, increase my chances? My thinking is that DOJ NSD is a narrow focus so although they recruit less, less should bid on them.

I think this is a tough question to answer, because you've hit the nail on the head. (Actually, it's a question I'm trying to answer myself, as someone also applying this cycle.) It's true that NSD won't get applications from certain people who aren't interested, or even dislike, the subject-matter. Civil has such a broader reach that more people apply there. On the flip-side, NSD's 3 is pretty small as compared to CivDiv's 29. Depending on how you feel about the other Honors components, you could also rank both. A friend who used to hire for CivDiv indicated that they didn't auto-trash anyone who didn't rank them first (through ranking them third was dicey).

OP here (the HYS anon). Any thinking then on competitiveness of Civil Appellate? Or what prereqs are generally needed?

[Anonymous User]

Have a question for the current/past DOJ honors people in here: What effect do elections have on the process?

I would probably be applying for the program in 2016, but the components I would be applying to are probably more politicized than most. I wouldn't want to work for the component in one administration but would love to in another.

What's the deal? Do people just apply and if there's an unfortunate result they're just stuck working for things they strongly disagree with?

[mi-chan17]

Applications opening up today.

Good luck, everyone!

[Anonymous User]

OP here (the HYS anon). Any thinking then on competitiveness of Civil Appellate? Or what prereqs are generally needed?

It's incredibly hard to answer this with any degree of precision, but Civil Appellate is almost certainly going to be among the most competitive (perhaps the most competitive) of the subcomponents. It's true that Civil generally has many more slots than NSD, but most of those are in OIL, Torts, and Commercial, which are easier to land than the "generalist" Civil subcomponents (Appellate and FP).

Many of the recent Appellate and FP hires have spent only one or two years in those positions before clerking on the Supreme Court (which reflects in part that the jobs are considered prestigious ones, but in part the competitive nature of the applicant pool). That may be a bit different this year, because there are more slots, but there aren't that many more slots--six total (vs. last year's two).

TL;DR: It's a very competitive job. Consider including at least one of the less-competitive subcomponents in your top three.

[Anonymous User]

What did you guys put for your practice area interest.
Tempted to select like most of them

[Anonymous User]

Do you mean when you're registering for the site, to be able to access the application? It doesn't matter for the application itself, that's just demographic stuff for employers to collect. I'm pretty sure the actual application doesn't ask for areas of interest (beyond actually picking components and so on).

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know whether I need to rank AUSA first to get my application serious consideration? I'm most interested in the AUSA positions, but also in the interest of maximizing my odds I would like to apply for the DOJ Civil positions. However, I heard that you have to rank Civil #1 in order to get serious consideration. I was wondering whether the same was true of AUSA positions or not. I'm specifically interested in C.D. Cal, S.D. Cal, and D. Ariz.

[Anonymous User]

Different USAOs may react differently, but my experience was that you did not have to rank the USAOs first to get considered. (But not all the USAOs interviewed me, hence my hedge.)

[Anonymous User]

Any big difference between the Tax-Civil or Criminal. Which one is more competitive?
Also, same for the divisions in Civil.

[Anonymous User]

Any big difference between the Tax-Civil or Criminal. Which one is more competitive?
Also, same for the divisions in Civil.

I'm under the impression Criminal Tax is more competitive, but YMMV. CivDiv, in order of most competitive to least: Appellate, FP, Commercial, Consumer, OIL, Torts. Take all of this with a grain of salt, since it's based on anecdata and observation.

Unrelatedly, I hate these essays so much. I'm not sure there is a way to write them that doesn't make me sound like I'm spouting cliches, even if everything I'm saying I mean and is true.

[Anonymous User]

I accepted an offer for my 2L SA position, and they're holding it for me while I do a D.Ct. clerkship for a year, but I want to try for DOJ Honors nonetheless. Are you all of the opinion that Honors is worth giving up the $50k clerkship bonus my firm would pay. I was really looking forward to that $200+ first year at the firm, but if DOJ Honors is a better choice, I'd be interested in hearing why that is.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Depends on what you want to do. What positions in honors interest you and why? Do you have debt? It's possible to lateral into federal positions later, depending what they are and what you're going to do in the meantime. For a lot of people, probably, honors is worth it for getting their foot in the federal door - they want a federal job and they don't want to do biglaw. If you're fine with biglaw, honors is not necessarily worth it. It's kind of a difficult question to answer the way that you've posed it.

[Anonymous User]

Depends on what you want to do. What positions in honors interest you and why? Do you have debt? It's possible to lateral into federal positions later, depending what they are and what you're going to do in the meantime. For a lot of people, probably, honors is worth it for getting their foot in the federal door - they want a federal job and they don't want to do biglaw. If you're fine with biglaw, honors is not necessarily worth it. It's kind of a difficult question to answer the way that you've posed it.

Appreciate the response, man. I'm a veteran and I have long term plans of going back into the federal government to use my military time toward federal retirement. I have <100k in debt, but I liked the idea of biglaw for a few years just to see how I liked it and also to pay off my debt. After that I have my eyes of Justice or Defense. If my priority is getting into the federal government, I'm guessing you'd recommend taking the short term pay cut to pave the way to my overall goal? I'm going to apply and see how it goes. I don't really have much of a preference on section, though national security does appeal to me. Thank you again.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No, honestly, I don't know how I'd answer. I don't know if I could turn down the bonus and biglaw money if I knew I had it lined up (I didn't go that route so I knew I wouldn't have to worry about whether I could turn it down). I knew I wanted government work and for me it was better to start where I wanted to be than hope I could get into it later, but that's just me and based on a lot of stuff specific to my life. So I can see others taking a different path. Good luck working everything out.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. App is submitted. Good luck everyone!

[ZyzzBrah]

any idea about the competitiveness of the asset forfeiture fellowship? I would love to do that, but won't bother applying of it's a waste of a "1" rank


fwiw I'm a ssc clerk, top 20% from t 30-40, lr, published

[Anonymous User]

I just started filling out the application. Do we really have to make an entry for every class we took? ugh

[Anonymous User]

Welcome to the federal government.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way to see the geographic location of the various components? The only component I see that lists the location of the office is the USAO.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way to see the geographic location of the various components? The only component I see that lists the location of the office is the USAO.

I'm pretty sure that if there isn't a location listed, the job is in DC. The participating components page (http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/ho ... components) says where each component has openings (when there's more than DC), and usually if there are non-DC positions the online application lists the locations and asks which ones you want to apply to (and has you rank them).

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way to see the geographic location of the various components? The only component I see that lists the location of the office is the USAO.

I'm pretty sure that if there isn't a location listed, the job is in DC. The participating components page (http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/ho ... components) says where each component has openings (when there's more than DC), and usually if there are non-DC positions the online application lists the locations and asks which ones you want to apply to (and has you rank them).

Hmm, that would be my thought to but my school's career services' office said something to the effect of only a bit more than half are in D.C.

Does anyone know if any of the DOJ Civil positions on the west coast? What components offer positions on the west coast? I saw that they're hiring AUSAs out in California, but is there anything else?

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way to see the geographic location of the various components? The only component I see that lists the location of the office is the USAO.

I'm pretty sure that if there isn't a location listed, the job is in DC. The participating components page (http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/ho ... components) says where each component has openings (when there's more than DC), and usually if there are non-DC positions the online application lists the locations and asks which ones you want to apply to (and has you rank them).

Hmm, that would be my thought to but my school's career services' office said something to the effect of only a bit more than half are in D.C.

Does anyone know if any of the DOJ Civil positions on the west coast? What components offer positions on the west coast? I saw that they're hiring AUSAs out in California, but is there anything else?

If you count all the immigration law clerkships (which I don't see why you wouldn't), that's probably true - there are lots of those and most aren't in DC.

[mi-chan17]

App is in. Good luck to everyone else!