Are we at-will employed? annually? Forum

[Anonymous User]

To the OP's original point, no firm is going to give up the ability to fire associates at will. It's the whole point of having them around.

Wow. This is stressful. How do people perform well if there is no minimal job security--knowing that you could get fired the very next day regardless of your performance...

[Tanicius]

To the OP's original point, no firm is going to give up the ability to fire associates at will. It's the whole point of having them around.

Wow. This is stressful. How do people perform well if there is no minimal job security--knowing that you could get fired the very next day regardless of your performance...

The security you have are market forces. Firms are cognizant of their reputation among incoming associates. They can't be a bigger dick to you than other firms or the people they want will stop applying/accepting at their firm.

Competing companies within industries tend to exercise similar guidelines as each other, such as one industry which might have a commonly held 60 days notice policy, even for their employees who are at-will.

You're not going to be fired out of the blue unless the firm has extreme financial hardship. Most likely you'll be "let go" because things "aren't working," and this will happen between your second and fifth year at the firm, with probably several months' worth of notice. Firms try to soft-terminate you instead of outright firing you. They want to keep it quiet and professional so that everyone wins. Because all the other biglaw firms provide the same service, they will offer to set you up with a head hunter, call someone important at another office, or set you up with a very nice unemployment package.

[Anonymous User]

so you are probably employed at will but at will can mean different things depending on the background laws. I believe in all states at will will always mean they cant fire you for bad reasons. In some states at will is really qualified by whatever the law permits. Some only allow termination for specific limited reasons (not really at will) and some go further and provide for legal remedy if it they fire you because of a reason not listed.. so basically in some places the severance package is mandatory if you're fired for a reason thats not allowed

[Tanicius]

so you are probably employed at will but at will can mean different things depending on the background laws. I believe in all states at will will always mean they cant fire you for bad reasons. In some states at will is really qualified by whatever the law permits. Some only allow termination for specific limited reasons (not really at will) and some go further and provide for legal remedy if it they fire you because of a reason not listed.. so basically in some places the severance package is mandatory if you're fired for a reason thats not allowed

This wasn't what I was getting at, but this is (mostly) correct. What I was trying to say is that just because a firm technically could fire you one month into your job, this almost never happens at the big firms. And when they do fire for reasons unrelated to your actual work product, just because they're bored of you and want you out, they will go a surprisingly long mile towards making sure you're not fucked.

But yes, if you're at-will at your firm, they can't fire you for race, gender, sex, disability and in some (very small minority of) states can't fire you for your sexual orientation. They also can't retaliate against you for filing a lawsuit or complaint against them (although most law firms will find subtle ways to break that law, and because word spreads quickly you will not be hired at other firms in the same market if you complained or sued about something big and/or stupid).

Are you a 3L? You really need to take some refresher courses in ConLaw, Contracts and Employment law.

[NYSprague]

All those stealthed former biglaw associates can explain at will employment to you, no problem.

[Anonymous User]

so you are probably employed at will but at will can mean different things depending on the background laws. I believe in all states at will will always mean they cant fire you for bad reasons. In some states at will is really qualified by whatever the law permits. Some only allow termination for specific limited reasons (not really at will) and some go further and provide for legal remedy if it they fire you because of a reason not listed.. so basically in some places the severance package is mandatory if you're fired for a reason thats not allowed

This wasn't what I was getting at, but this is (mostly) correct. What I was trying to say is that just because a firm technically could fire you one month into your job, this almost never happens at the big firms. And when they do fire for reasons unrelated to your actual work product, just because they're bored of you and want you out, they will go a surprisingly long mile towards making sure you're not fucked.

But yes, if you're at-will at your firm, they can't fire you for race, gender, sex, disability and in some (very small minority of) states can't fire you for your sexual orientation. They also can't retaliate against you for filing a lawsuit or complaint against them (although most law firms will find subtle ways to break that law, and because word spreads quickly you will not be hired at other firms in the same market if you complained or sued about something big and/or stupid).

Are you a 3L? You really need to take some refresher courses in ConLaw, Contracts and Employment law.

I wasn't actually contradicting your post in any way (didn't even read your post before this post). I agree with what you said.

Also, at-will is qualified in some states beyond what your post might suggest. e.g. cannot fire you because the firm is simply tired of you... these are laws that go beyond "bad reasons". This is true even when they call it at-will. There is no lawful way to fire you outside the specified reasons and sometimes the law already specifies the remedy.

[NYSprague]

^^^^
Why anonymous? This is so ridiculous. If a firm wants you out, you're out. Not that hard to understand.

[guano]

Are there any private sector professional jobs that aren't at will?

If you get high enough up the food chain, plenty.

It's not unusual for people to have 1 year notice periods (for both sides)

[Anonymous User]

We signed no contract when starting, or at any other point.

A first year who started with me tried to negotiate terms, with now-infamous results ( though is still employed at my firm).

I would suspect these stories of negotiated compensation are very, very old.

[Tanicius]

I would suspect these stories of negotiated compensation are very, very old.

Nope, post-2009 generation.

[09042014]

We signed no contract when starting, or at any other point.

A first year who started with me tried to negotiate terms, with now-infamous results ( though is still employed at my firm).

I would suspect these stories of negotiated compensation are very, very old.

Negotiation can happen if you have some really different situation. I know someone who is c/o 2013 but came in as a 5th year because he had a PhD in EE and 4 years at our firm doing litigation consulting work.

That doesn't mean some random 2L can force my firms handing into making it rain. And I doubt even Harvard EIC means shit to a firm.

[A. Nony Mouse]

To the OP's original point, no firm is going to give up the ability to fire associates at will. It's the whole point of having them around.

Wow. This is stressful. How do people perform well if there is no minimal job security--knowing that you could get fired the very next day regardless of your performance...

This is pretty much how employment works for most people in the US.

[sundontshine]

Oh okay. So I guess my firm does not sign one until we get to the office later... since we didn't go anything after we returned one page signed acceptance for the formal offer last year post-summer.

Do you know if that's the case, whether one signs the contract individually or as a group (everyone in a room together and each signing their's)?
Also do we get some time to read the terms and think about it at all? or just sign it on the spot immediately?

Sorry to be blunt, but how in the hell did you get an offer of full-time employment from a law firm despite not grasping the concept of "employment at will" nor having a general understanding of how employment works in the United States at the most basic level?

[Anonymous User]

I would suspect these stories of negotiated compensation are very, very old.

Nope, post-2009 generation.

I know of a few recent stories of negotiated offers. In all cases the person had something going for them beyond law school/law review/etc. like an MBA plus years of high-level experience (was fall/winter term graduate and successfully negotiated a crazy early start date) or PhD+MD and high-level experience (came in as a 2nd year w/o clerking)

[XxSpyKEx]

I would suspect these stories of negotiated compensation are very, very old.

Nope, post-2009 generation.

I know of a few recent stories of negotiated offers. In all cases the person had something going for them beyond law school/law review/etc. like an MBA plus years of high-level experience (was fall/winter term graduate and successfully negotiated a crazy early start date) or PhD+MD and high-level experience (came in as a 2nd year w/o clerking)

This sounds right. Pretty much you have to have something that make firms really want you. I doubt EIC of Harvard Law Review would be enough. It has to be something like a very prestigious clerkship (e.g. SCOTUS, 2/7/9/DC clerkship w/ a big judge) and in a case-by-case type area (e.g. the clerkship bonus, entering class after completing a couple clerkships, etc). In other words, if you're the type of attorney that firms like Bartlit, Beck are competing for, big firms will negotiate with you. If you're a recent grad without anything going for you except grades and law review at a top school, it's probably not happening.

[Paul Campos]

so you are probably employed at will but at will can mean different things depending on the background laws. I believe in all states at will will always mean they cant fire you for bad reasons. In some states at will is really qualified by whatever the law permits. Some only allow termination for specific limited reasons (not really at will) and some go further and provide for legal remedy if it they fire you because of a reason not listed.. so basically in some places the severance package is mandatory if you're fired for a reason thats not allowed

This wasn't what I was getting at, but this is (mostly) correct. What I was trying to say is that just because a firm technically could fire you one month into your job, this almost never happens at the big firms. And when they do fire for reasons unrelated to your actual work product, just because they're bored of you and want you out, they will go a surprisingly long mile towards making sure you're not fucked.

But yes, if you're at-will at your firm, they can't fire you for race, gender, sex, disability and in some (very small minority of) states can't fire you for your sexual orientation. They also can't retaliate against you for filing a lawsuit or complaint against them (although most law firms will find subtle ways to break that law, and because word spreads quickly you will not be hired at other firms in the same market if you complained or sued about something big and/or stupid).

Are you a 3L? You really need to take some refresher courses in ConLaw, Contracts and Employment law.

I wasn't actually contradicting your post in any way (didn't even read your post before this post). I agree with what you said.

Also, at-will is qualified in some states beyond what your post might suggest. e.g. cannot fire you because the firm is simply tired of you... these are laws that go beyond "bad reasons". This is true even when they call it at-will. There is no lawful way to fire you outside the specified reasons and sometimes the law already specifies the remedy.

I'd like to hear more about these states and their laws.

[Lwoods]

so you are probably employed at will but at will can mean different things depending on the background laws. I believe in all states at will will always mean they cant fire you for bad reasons. In some states at will is really qualified by whatever the law permits. Some only allow termination for specific limited reasons (not really at will) and some go further and provide for legal remedy if it they fire you because of a reason not listed.. so basically in some places the severance package is mandatory if you're fired for a reason thats not allowed

This wasn't what I was getting at, but this is (mostly) correct. What I was trying to say is that just because a firm technically could fire you one month into your job, this almost never happens at the big firms. And when they do fire for reasons unrelated to your actual work product, just because they're bored of you and want you out, they will go a surprisingly long mile towards making sure you're not fucked.

But yes, if you're at-will at your firm, they can't fire you for race, gender, sex, disability and in some (very small minority of) states can't fire you for your sexual orientation. They also can't retaliate against you for filing a lawsuit or complaint against them (although most law firms will find subtle ways to break that law, and because word spreads quickly you will not be hired at other firms in the same market if you complained or sued about something big and/or stupid).

Are you a 3L? You really need to take some refresher courses in ConLaw, Contracts and Employment law.

I wasn't actually contradicting your post in any way (didn't even read your post before this post). I agree with what you said.

Also, at-will is qualified in some states beyond what your post might suggest. e.g. cannot fire you because the firm is simply tired of you... these are laws that go beyond "bad reasons". This is true even when they call it at-will. There is no lawful way to fire you outside the specified reasons and sometimes the law already specifies the remedy.

Not some states. Only Montana. Montana is the only state that has eliminated at-will employment in the US. Otherwise, Tanicius is totally correct. In at-will arrangements, employers can fire you for having poor taste in shoes (or any other ridiculous, non-discriminatory reason) if they'd like. They just can't fire you for those certain prohibited reasons (discrimination, retaliation). Now, they usually don't because recruiting and training people is expensive, but they can. Likewise, you can quit for any reason.

Now, employers and employees can contract to enter into other arrangements, but in 49 of the 50 states (with Montana as the only exception), at-will is the default.

I hope this is a flame and/or that you're an 0L. Anyone who has taken first year contracts should have no trouble with the idea of at-will employment.

[DELG]

Is this guy confusing what has to happen to be disqualified for unemployment bennies with the law for private employers?

[OutCold]

This thread pops up every year at about this time. The legal analysis and anecdotal evidence are always good for a chuckle.

[Pokemon]

Thread should be closed cause OP is 0L. I refuse to believe that someone with some law school would ask such questions.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Not an 0L.

[dixiecupdrinking]

This thread is exhibit A in why people should not go K-JD.

[09042014]

You guys didn't get a 5 year contract with a 2 year extension option at 400k/year?

[KidStuddi]

This thread is exhibit A in why people should not go K-JD.

This. It also doubles as an a prime exhibit showing the folly with firms just indiscriminately targeting an 100% offer rate. I feel bad for the other junior associates that are inevitably going to be picking up OP's slack.

You guys didn't get a 5 year contract with a 2 year extension option at 400k/year?

You didn't get a no-trade clause in your shit? Gotta fire your agent, bro. You've left yourself open to getting shipped off to some off-brand firm in a third-world city in exchange for some expiring secretary contracts.

[kalvano]

What is OP going to do when he realizes his employment contract specifies that the employment is at-will?