Below Median (3.2) at Duke: 2L Strategy Forum

[Chrstgtr]

Can someone explain, mathematically, how the overall median can be higher than 3.3 if every class has a strict 3.3 median?

Curious to know this as well. How does 3.2ish put you so far down in the class? Seems closer to median to me like third quartile as a poster above said.

Math-wise this is not possible. If X sets of data each has a 3.3 median, then the weighted average of all or some of these sets of data will definitely have a 3.3 median.

This is definitely possible mathematically. We are not talking about 3.3 median for all the classes but a 3.3 median for the GPA of all the students in those classes. Medians are not means and the sets (classes) are not what we are concerned about. We care about the GPA of students in those classes.

Example:
Student A, B, and C all take two classes together in which A, B, and C are the only students.

Class 1
A receives a 3.0
B receives a 3.3
C receives a 4.0
Class median 3.3

Class 2
A receives a 3.0
B receives a 4.0
C receives a 3.3
Cass median 3.3

In both classes the median is a 3.3 and both classes have the exact same distribution of grades and therefore the same mean of 3.43. In both classes student A receives a below median grade while students B and C receive at/above median grades, that student B and C switch on.

GPAs of students after 2 classes
A-3.0
B-3.65
C-3.65

This example shows how the sets of data (the classes) need not have the same means or medians of the individual sub-components of the data (the students' GPAs). Although, this is an obviously extreme example involving just 3 students with a wide spread between an above median grade, a 4.0, and a median grade, a 3.3, it nevertheless shows the principal that I am trying to illustrate.

Further it makes sense to assume that the median GPAs of students will be higher than the median grade given in courses because of the distribution of abilities and interests. If a student lacks the underlying ability to explain and recall cases it will not matter if the case if a tort or a civil liberties case. However, if a student has a particular interest in the subject and retains the ability that median student may jump up from their typical median performance for an above median grade (or vice versa).

Also I'm not trying to call out and publicly shame anyone's suspect math abilities but that is a completely unnecessary use of anon that defeats its entire purpose.

[3L2014]

Man, some people sure are bad at math. If the median of each class is a 3.3, then this DOES NOT mean the average of every class is a 3.3.

For example, 3.2, 3.2, 3.3, 3.9, 3.9. Median is still a 3.3. All school use longer tails on the right to try to game this system. My guess is the median is close to a 3.38 or so.

[rad lulz]

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[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the math lesson, actually learned something new.

Anyhow, are there specific firms that I should target? It is quite discouraging when I look at the historical offer sheet and my grades put me in the bottom 10% of all students receiving offers from basically every firm in LA/NYC.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the math lesson, actually learned something new.

Anyhow, are there specific firms that I should target? It is quite discouraging when I look at the historical offer sheet and my grades put me in the bottom 10% of all students receiving offers from basically every firm in LA/NYC.

Duke grad who posted before. The offer sheet from cso is skewed high bc of top performers. The grades at each level that are needed or typical are probably lower by a dent bit.

[Wearthewildthingsr]

OP here, thanks for the math lesson, actually learned something new.

Anyhow, are there specific firms that I should target? It is quite discouraging when I look at the historical offer sheet and my grades put me in the bottom 10% of all students receiving offers from basically every firm in LA/NYC.

Duke grad who posted before. The offer sheet from cso is skewed high bc of top performers. The grades at each level that are needed or typical are probably lower by a dent bit.

hey anon poster, can you pm me? got a few questions

btw I'm not OP

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the math lesson, actually learned something new.

Anyhow, are there specific firms that I should target? It is quite discouraging when I look at the historical offer sheet and my grades put me in the bottom 10% of all students receiving offers from basically every firm in LA/NYC.

Duke grad who posted before. The offer sheet from cso is skewed high bc of top performers. The grades at each level that are needed or typical are probably lower by a dent bit.

Agreed. The numbers are inflated a lot. (I didn't know that at the time. It was demoralizing to look at the PDF.)

[lawyerwannabe]

OP: Once you get your bid list, make sure you do research on the firms you were given interviews with. I thought that helped make an impression and connection. Also, your strategy should largely be focused on mass-mailing. This includes NYC firms not coming to OCI, firms in your hometown, etc. Good luck!

[lawyerwannabe]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

if 3.3 is median, it seems nearly impossible for 3.2 to be bottom 20%, and unlikely that OP is deep into the bottom third. They are probably sitting somewhere in the third quartile, not very comfortable but not at the very bottom of the class as you suggest.

Quoted poster here. The median for each class is a 3.3 but that's almost certainly not the median for all first years. Not that I have any inside info or wish to recall statistics but my estimate is close enough to get the point across. I.e., a large majority of your oci competition will have an edge in grades.

Duke 3L here. It's true that 3.3 is the median per class. I don't know that the overall median is much higher though. For OP to be in the bottom 25%, the median would have to be way higher than 3.3, which seems unlikely.

I'd guess median was in the 3.3X area. I'd be shocked if it's 3.4 or higher (for 1Ls).

I'm genuinely curious if you have any inside info though. I had a 3.3 GPA in 1L and always thought "at least in I'm in the middle, I guess"

I have always heard that median is always a little above 3.3 (like 3.32ish) and top third is in the high 3.4s or low 3.5s.