Law firm SA or judicial intern???? Forum

[Stringer Bell]

Depends on what you want to do long term? Go into Biglaw - take the SA. Judicial Clerkship - take the internship.

This makes no sense. The only judge who might possibly care that you'd done a 1L internship is the judge you actually interned for. It's not going to materially affect your chances at a clerkship. And clerkship vs. biglaw is not a career choice. Most clerks do biglaw afterward.

Plenty of judges are friends with each other. If this judge were to truly get pissed at OP, it could potentially prevent a future clerkship from any judge in that circuit as well as other district and circuit judges that are friends with that judge.

[ymmv]

Depends on what you want to do long term? Go into Biglaw - take the SA. Judicial Clerkship - take the internship.

This makes no sense. The only judge who might possibly care that you'd done a 1L internship is the judge you actually interned for. It's not going to materially affect your chances at a clerkship. And clerkship vs. biglaw is not a career choice. Most clerks do biglaw afterward.

Plenty of judges are friends with each other. If this judge were to truly get pissed at OP, it could potentially prevent a future clerkship from any judge in that circuit as well as other district and circuit judges that are friends with that judge.

This is the common wisdom. I don't know if there's any merit to it, but for what it's worth people take VERY seriously the prospect of reneging on a job with a judge. My school has supposedly banned people from OCI before on account of judicial assistants called the school about it. That is not a risk I would personally take for a single summer's worth of firm income, especially not if you're interested in a clerkship in the area.

[Jchance]

This is the common wisdom. I don't know if there's any merit to it, but for what it's worth people take VERY seriously the prospect of reneging on a job with a judge. My school has supposedly banned people from OCI before on account of judicial assistants called the school about it. That is not a risk I would personally take for a single summer's worth of firm income, especially not if you're interested in a clerkship in the area.

Banning students from OCI makes no sense regarding reneging a judge. Maybe banning on clerkship apps makes more sense. A student with good grades who is not allowed to do OCI hurts the school's rank in the end.

[ymmv]

This is the common wisdom. I don't know if there's any merit to it, but for what it's worth people take VERY seriously the prospect of reneging on a job with a judge. My school has supposedly banned people from OCI before on account of judicial assistants called the school about it. That is not a risk I would personally take for a single summer's worth of firm income, especially not if you're interested in a clerkship in the area.

Banning students from OCI makes no sense regarding reneging a judge. Maybe banning on clerkship apps makes more sense. A student with good grades who is not allowed to do OCI hurts the school's rank in the end.

I didn't say it makes any sense, but it illustrates how seriously the Career Services folks take this kind of thing. I suppose their reasoning could be that it harms the school's "image" in the judicial community more than the loss of a single good slot at OCI. I don't claim to understand what goes on in those offices.

[Law Student 2848]

Depends on what you want to do long term? Go into Biglaw - take the SA. Judicial Clerkship - take the internship.

This makes no sense. The only judge who might possibly care that you'd done a 1L internship is the judge you actually interned for. It's not going to materially affect your chances at a clerkship. And clerkship vs. biglaw is not a career choice. Most clerks do biglaw afterward.

It would be an internship with a Federal Circuit Court Judge, that's fairly impressive and you'd make great connections if you really wanted to do a clerkship. He can easily do an SA during 2L summer.

[rpupkin]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

OP: You're probably fine no matter what, but I think Stringer's cautious approach is the right answer here. If you adopt an attitude of "fuck the CSO" or "fuck the judge," you needlessly risk creating problems for yourself. As others have suggested, call the judge and explain your situation.

And, yeah, under no circumstances should you make yourself the subject of an ATL story.

[jkpolk]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

OP: You're probably fine no matter what, but I think Stringer's cautious approach is the right answer here. If you adopt an attitude of "fuck the CSO" or "fuck the judge," you needlessly risk creating problems for yourself. As others have suggested, call the judge and explain your situation.

And, yeah, under no circumstances should you make yourself the subject of an ATL story.

Take the SA and run. Money should be your top priority at this point. Any wishy-washy CSO/Judge reputation concerns just aren't worth 25k or w/e IMO.

[reasonable_man]

We seem to be under different assumptions about OP. Since they got the circuit internship, I'm assuming they go to a good school, and since they got the SA I am assuming they have good grades. This would mean landing a 2L SA would have been almost a guarantee. In that scenario it is reasonable to worry about something that could really bite you in the ass for trying to get a job with other firms or trying to land an A3 clerkship.

Wow these are some big assumptions you're making. Are you living in the year 2005???

And FWIW, as someone that has done a good deal of law firm hiring, an unpaid internship with a judge is such an average and generally un impressive credential that I usually blow past it while reviewing a resume looking for real legal experience. A Circuit judge is obviously marginally more compelling, but it's still just am internship and not a clerkship.

[goldeneye]

Why is this thread two pages? SA plain and simple. No debate. Tell the judge you need the money. They will understand and if not, who cares.

[lawhopeful10]

Why is this thread two pages? SA plain and simple. No debate. Tell the judge you need the money. They will understand and if not, who cares.

This

[sparty99]

Why is this thread two pages? SA plain and simple. No debate. Tell the judge you need the money. They will understand and if not, who cares.

This

+10,000. There is no fucking debate. You take the SA gig. Fuck everyone for even suggesting that he take an unpaid internship over $20,000 +. Y'all are pissing me off with your tom foolery.

[Danger Zone]

But sparty, there's so much more to life than just money!

[Emma.]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

[sparty99]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

No. You don't work for the judge under any circumstance. None. Period.

[Anonymous User]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

No. You don't work for the judge under any circumstance. None. Period.

This is short sighted. If the fed judge is in the market that OP wants to work, making an enemy of the judge could be career suicide. It would be worth forgoing $20K if the alternative was no long term job prospects in OP's preferred market.

[ymmv]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

No. You don't work for the judge under any circumstance. None. Period.

This is short sighted. If the fed judge is in the market that OP wants to work, making an enemy of the judge could be career suicide. It would be worth forgoing $20K if the alternative was no long term job prospects in OP's preferred market.

Aren't both of you being a little extreme? I mean, I'm of the opinion that fucking around with a judge is incredibly stupid, but I doubt there will be any huge problem if OP just talks to the judge about the situation and (probably) takes the SA with his blessing. As long as the judge is completely cool with it and CSO doesn't throw a hissy fit (or, preferably, doesn't find out at all), SA seems like the sensible option.

[sparty99]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

No. You don't work for the judge under any circumstance. None. Period.

This is short sighted. If the fed judge is in the market that OP wants to work, making an enemy of the judge could be career suicide. It would be worth forgoing $20K if the alternative was no long term job prospects in OP's preferred market.

Aren't both of you being a little extreme? I mean, I'm of the opinion that fucking around with a judge is incredibly stupid, but I doubt there will be any huge problem if OP just talks to the judge about the situation and (probably) takes the SA with his blessing. As long as the judge is completely cool with it and CSO doesn't throw a hissy fit (or, preferably, doesn't find out at all), SA seems like the sensible option.

No. I had an offer at the DOJ and reneged for a 1L SA. Do I regret it? No. Did anything happen as a result? No. Did I talk to them about it? No. Who cares if the judge is cool with it or not. He is not god. If he holds a grudge it will be at the mercy of the lawyer's clients, not the attorney. Who is really going to do that? Also, if this dude works at a firm, he will most likely not even be in front of a judge for another 6 to 7 years as Associates don't go to court.

There is nothing to really "talk out" with the judge. "I really appreciate your offer, however, I recently received an offer from a firm that I would like to work at. They will pay me and with my debt at $100,000, financially it really makes sense. Additionally, they will give me the opportunity to work on XYZ, an area of law that I desire. I really wanted to work at your organization and build XYZ skills, but financially, and long-term, this seems like the best fit. Instead of working for the summer, can I intern with you at the fall for school credit?" Or you can ask him what he thinks I should do....but nonetheless, the end answer will be, you don't work there for the summer. Period. The 1L firm will give you money to pay your bills, they will most likely invite you back your 2L summer, which will end in a job. This is not up for debate. You do not work for the judge. He can find someone else. Especially a fucking 1L.

[Anonymous User]

No. I had an offer at the DOJ and reneged for a 1L SA. Do I regret it? No. Did anything happen as a result? No. Did I talk to them about it? No. Who cares if the judge is cool with it or not. He is not god. If he holds a grudge it will be at the mercy of the lawyer's clients, not the attorney. Who is really going to do that? Also, if this dude works at a firm, he will most likely not even be in front of a judge for another 6 to 7 years as Associates don't go to court.

There is nothing to really "talk out" with the judge. "I really appreciate your offer, however, I recently received an offer from a firm that I would like to work at. They will pay me and with my debt at $100,000, financially it really makes sense. Additionally, they will give me the opportunity to work on XYZ, an area of law that I desire. I really wanted to work at your organization and build XYZ skills, but financially, and long-term, this seems like the best fit. Instead of working for the summer, can I intern with you at the fall for school credit?" Or you can ask him what he thinks I should do....but nonetheless, the end answer will be, you don't work there for the summer. Period. The 1L firm will give you money to pay your bills, they will most likely invite you back your 2L summer, which will end in a job. This is not up for debate. You do not work for the judge. He can find someone else. Especially a fucking 1L.

I agree with Emma. If the judge says you've already committed to me, you listen to him. Just because you're willing to burn bridges doesn't mean everyone else should. The legal community is small and your reputation is all you have.

This all being said, I have approached a judge about taking a 1L SA instead and he didn't mind at all.

[Emma.]

For a lot of federal court judges, taking interns is one way they "give back" to the legal community. It isn't like you are screwing the judge over and suddenly s/he will be struggling with their case load. You being there is likely a burden as far as the operation of chambers--it'll probably take more time for chambers to get you up to speed than it would for the clerks to just do the work themselves.

So yeah, just contact chambers and tell the judge that of course you'll be there if s/he needs you, but the chance to earn a paycheck would be huge and help you pay off loans or whatever. Any reasonable judge is going to tell you to take the SA. If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. The judge that tells you that you need to stick with the internship when given the option of a firm job is also the judge that might go out of his/her way to screw you over if you bail on him/her.

No. You don't work for the judge under any circumstance. None. Period.

This is short sighted. If the fed judge is in the market that OP wants to work, making an enemy of the judge could be career suicide. It would be worth forgoing $20K if the alternative was no long term job prospects in OP's preferred market.

Aren't both of you being a little extreme? I mean, I'm of the opinion that fucking around with a judge is incredibly stupid, but I doubt there will be any huge problem if OP just talks to the judge about the situation and (probably) takes the SA with his blessing. As long as the judge is completely cool with it and CSO doesn't throw a hissy fit (or, preferably, doesn't find out at all), SA seems like the sensible option.

This is exactly what I was saying. I imagine 95% of judges will tell OP to take the SA. Then no hard feelings and no bridges burned.

[sparty99]

YOu said, " If the judge is unreasonable about and says something like "you've already committed to me" then you should probably stick with the internship. " Which is where you went astray. If the judge goes that route. Too bad too sad. Peace out, brotha. "I got $20,000 problems, but a judge aint one."

[goldeneye]

What judge possibly has enough care to ruin the career of a 1L. Come on people

And judicial internships are done by thousands of people so you're not a special snowflake who has an advantage for clerking. No reason at all not to the firm job.

/end thread

[Mal Reynolds]

OP please update with what happens. I would be curious to find out. You should really do exactly what Emma says. The other people ITT are nowhere near as qualified to answer your questions.