V5 first year - corp taking ? s before considering quitting Forum

[Anonymous User]

Have you thought about getting out of NYC? You could go to a smaller firm and get by billing 160-170 hours a month in a lot of cities and I bet they'd love to interview you with the V5 pedigree, especially if you stick it out another year or so.

I've contacted recruiters already actually just off the record conversations - not saying I'm formally looking for anything. The universal answer is you need about 2-3 years at a NYC firm before you are attractive to make the jump.

My understanding is that recruiters tend to work with people who have 2+ years, but since you're at such a top-shelf firm now you might be able to pull something off sooner. Do you have any buddies from law school who landed at smaller market or small/mid-sized firms? Maybe reach out to them and ask if they think anything might open up in their offices this year.

[Anonymous User]

This thread scares the fuck out of me.

Not having time to exercise or do things I like and losing my SO sounds awful. Sorry man, hope you find something else.

If not, maybe set an end date to quit? Like, I'm gonna stay for 6 more months or 1 more year and then bail. That way at least you can pay down your debt some more. And maybe having a light at the end of the tunnel will make things a tad more bearable?

Agree you should go see someone (even if it is completely job related...drugs always help

I find these comments odd, because I'm generally happy. Yes things have sucked (i.e. losing s/o, health problems and not being able to exercise) but that stuff while sad hasn't really made me depressed. Otherwise, I'm generally happy with life I just think that working for biglaw has obviously has some negative implications.

[TLSUSER22]

Have you thought of going back to school? Or was law your "only academic passion". I am sure you must have been a good student, that is why you are at law school, you still have time enter another profession.

However, debt might be holding you down. If you had no debt, what course of action would you take?

[Anonymous User]

Was in your shoes OP my first year (also corp at V5) - and while it's hard to believe, it does get better. There's still those weeks where life sucks but the more you do it the better you get at managing your time and setting boundaries. A non-negligible reason for why biglaw sucks is internal strife and uncertainty on what's expected or the norm and as you get more senior, hopefully you start to care less about the little things and just focus on getting the work done and getting on with the rest of your life. An email can usually go unanswered for a few hours without people chewing off your head; you can and should vacation (I take 4 weeks every year); you can go to the gym in the middle of the day when things are slow; you can tell people, even partners, you'll be out of pocket during parts of the weekend.

At the very least, don't quit - have them push you out and give you dat severance.

[Anonymous User]

Have you thought about getting out of NYC? You could go to a smaller firm and get by billing 160-170 hours a month in a lot of cities and I bet they'd love to interview you with the V5 pedigree, especially if you stick it out another year or so.

I've contacted recruiters already actually just off the record conversations - not saying I'm formally looking for anything. The universal answer is you need about 2-3 years at a NYC firm before you are attractive to make the jump.

My understanding is that recruiters tend to work with people who have 2+ years, but since you're at such a top-shelf firm now you might be able to pull something off sooner. Do you have any buddies from law school who landed at smaller market or small/mid-sized firms? Maybe reach out to them and ask if they think anything might open up in their offices this year.

Recruiters tend to work with people who have 2+ years because law firms ask recruiters to find people with 2+ years experience. I.e. they get paid to find people with 2+ years. No law firm, regardless of the market, is going to pay a recruiter to find a corporate associate with 0-1 years of experience because frankly, those people are a dime a dozen and the pedigree of the law firm is meaningless if the person was there for like 1 year.

Recruiters literally won't get paid a penny for being like Hi Law Firm, I found someone with 0-1 years of experience, therefore, they won't help you

[Anonymous User]

Was in your shoes OP my first year (also corp at V5) - and while it's hard to believe, it does get better. There's still those weeks where life sucks but the more you do it the better you get at managing your time and setting boundaries. A non-negligible reason for why biglaw sucks is internal strife and uncertainty on what's expected or the norm and as you get more senior, hopefully you start to care less about the little things and just focus on getting the work done and getting on with the rest of your life. An email can usually go unanswered for a few hours without people chewing off your head; you can and should vacation (I take 4 weeks every year); you can go to the gym in the middle of the day when things are slow; you can tell people, even partners, you'll be out of pocket during parts of the weekend.

At the very least, don't quit - have them push you out and give you dat severance.

I'm just not built to be "pushed out" and get fired. Like if a partner e-mails and asks for something by 5 PM, I'm not engrained to just blow it off and not do it and get fired and get severance.

I appreciate the optimistic, I'm just not sure I want to keep doing this, even if it does get better at the margins.

[Anonymous User]

Was in your shoes OP my first year (also corp at V5) - and while it's hard to believe, it does get better. There's still those weeks where life sucks but the more you do it the better you get at managing your time and setting boundaries. A non-negligible reason for why biglaw sucks is internal strife and uncertainty on what's expected or the norm and as you get more senior, hopefully you start to care less about the little things and just focus on getting the work done and getting on with the rest of your life. An email can usually go unanswered for a few hours without people chewing off your head; you can and should vacation (I take 4 weeks every year); you can go to the gym in the middle of the day when things are slow; you can tell people, even partners, you'll be out of pocket during parts of the weekend.

At the very least, don't quit - have them push you out and give you dat severance.

I'm just not built to be "pushed out" and get fired. Like if a partner e-mails and asks for something by 5 PM, I'm not engrained to just blow it off and not do it and get fired and get severance.

I appreciate the optimistic, I'm just not sure I want to keep doing this, even if it does get better at the margins.

Try blowing small things off - it gets easier and easier to stop giving a fuck. If you quit now the firm will be pissed and say bad things about you anyway so why not just blow off work or give it minimal effort?

[Anonymous User]

[
Try blowing small things off - it gets easier and easier to stop giving a fuck. If you quit now the firm will be pissed and say bad things about you anyway so why not just blow off work or give it minimal effort?

Because if you lateral within 3-4 years, your firm is going to be asked what their impression of you is?

"He blew off a lot of things and we had to fire him after less than a year" is surely going to be a great reference? Not entirely sure why everyone suggests just getting fired and get severance if you want to switch to another firm.

[Cicero76]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

[Anonymous User]

[
Try blowing small things off - it gets easier and easier to stop giving a fuck. If you quit now the firm will be pissed and say bad things about you anyway so why not just blow off work or give it minimal effort?

Because if you lateral within 3-4 years, your firm is going to be asked what their impression of you is?

"He blew off a lot of things and we had to fire him after less than a year" is surely going to be a great reference? Not entirely sure why everyone suggests just getting fired and get severance if you want to switch to another firm.

what do you think the firm will say if you leave within a year? it won't be great things.

[Anonymous User]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

You'll absolutely be happier. I went to the big city to do the "top deals" and it's basically complete flame. Honestly, there is no difference between Bubba Earl Jr. buying 10 Taco Bell franchises from Sir Roderick XIV in bumfuck America versus some F500 company doing some huge offering. In fact, now that I've worked on the latter, the former I would say sounds far more appealing in terms of substantive work, satisfaction, tangibility, and contacts.

[Anonymous User]

[
Try blowing small things off - it gets easier and easier to stop giving a fuck. If you quit now the firm will be pissed and say bad things about you anyway so why not just blow off work or give it minimal effort?

Because if you lateral within 3-4 years, your firm is going to be asked what their impression of you is?

"He blew off a lot of things and we had to fire him after less than a year" is surely going to be a great reference? Not entirely sure why everyone suggests just getting fired and get severance if you want to switch to another firm.

what do you think the firm will say if you leave within a year? it won't be great things.

Sure it will. If you do decent good work for a year and tell the firm you're leaving to move to a different market for personal reasons they will absolutely say "sad to lose him, he was a great associate."

[bk1]

I find these comments odd, because I'm generally happy. Yes things have sucked (i.e. losing s/o, health problems and not being able to exercise) but that stuff while sad hasn't really made me depressed. Otherwise, I'm generally happy with life I just think that working for biglaw has obviously has some negative implications.

TBF, you specifically said in your OP that "everything has fallen apart" and most people wouldn't consider that state to be synonymous with "I'm generally happy."

[Anonymous User]

OP, can you make it a point to hit gym 4x/week? You said you cut that out, and I know I'm way better off physically and mentally when I'm lifting. I know your schedule is packed but i bet you can make it happen.

[Cicero76]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

You'll absolutely be happier. I went to the big city to do the "top deals" and it's basically complete flame. Honestly, there is no difference between Bubba Earl Jr. buying 10 Taco Bell franchises from Sir Roderick XIV in bumfuck America versus some F500 company doing some huge offering. In fact, now that I've worked on the latter, the former I would say sounds far more appealing in terms of substantive work, satisfaction, tangibility, and contacts.

So taking a $50k pay cut and losing out on the "prestige" and flashiness of V5s and big city deals isn't that bad? I tend to think I'd be way happier in a small market, but the V20 or bust and "NY/DC or gtfo" attitude kinda wears me down and makes me question my priorities. If you can't think of any redeeming quality of NYC biglaw then it's hard to argue with avoiding it.

[Anonymous User]

[
Try blowing small things off - it gets easier and easier to stop giving a fuck. If you quit now the firm will be pissed and say bad things about you anyway so why not just blow off work or give it minimal effort?

Because if you lateral within 3-4 years, your firm is going to be asked what their impression of you is?

"He blew off a lot of things and we had to fire him after less than a year" is surely going to be a great reference? Not entirely sure why everyone suggests just getting fired and get severance if you want to switch to another firm.

what do you think the firm will say if you leave within a year? it won't be great things.

Sure it will. If you do decent good work for a year and tell the firm you're leaving to move to a different market for personal reasons they will absolutely say "sad to lose him, he was a great associate."

Fair enough. I don't know what get said or not said. I also don't know if they'll say bad things about you or if other firms will call and ask how xyz associate was. That's all speculation. I was under impression OP was going to quit law or something so I suggested milking it to pay off more debt. Honestly, doubt anyone who gets into V5 really has it in them to blow off work. My wife makes me turn my BB off sometimes when I'm out or at dinner so i'm not constantly checking it - I consider that blowing off work for a bit. Everyone just assumes I'm tied up on something else since the works always get done eventually.

[Anonymous User]

So taking a $50k pay cut and losing out on the "prestige" and flashiness of V5s and big city deals isn't that bad? I tend to think I'd be way happier in a small market, but the V20 or bust and "NY/DC or gtfo" attitude kinda wears me down and makes me question my priorities. If you can't think of any redeeming quality of NYC biglaw then it's hard to argue with avoiding it.

You probably will be making just as much, if not more after adjusting for taxes, rent, etc. The NY/DC or gtfo attitude is odd to me and having bought into it I'm convinced its just for NY/DC people who regret going to NY/DC who (1) just want everyone else to be as miserable as they are or (2) trying to perpetuate the myth that NY/DC is somehow superior from an experience perspective.

That being said, there are some redeeming qualities of NYC big law. (1) It's more geographically transferrable (i.e. you can go from NYC to DC or NYC to any city in America, but you can't really go from some tertiary market to NYC or to DC or even to another tertiary market as easily), (2) It sort of is a trial by fire type thing and if you can last a few years here, then you get a sort of badge of honor in the sense that people understand the shit you've been through (almost like an odd fraternity hazing routine)

[Anonymous User]

So taking a $50k pay cut and losing out on the "prestige" and flashiness of V5s and big city deals isn't that bad? I tend to think I'd be way happier in a small market, but the V20 or bust and "NY/DC or gtfo" attitude kinda wears me down and makes me question my priorities. If you can't think of any redeeming quality of NYC biglaw then it's hard to argue with avoiding it.

You probably will be making just as much, if not more after adjusting for taxes, rent, etc. The NY/DC or gtfo attitude is odd to me and having bought into it I'm convinced its just for NY/DC people who regret going to NY/DC who (1) just want everyone else to be as miserable as they are or (2) trying to perpetuate the myth that NY/DC is somehow superior from an experience perspective.

That being said, there are some redeeming qualities of NYC big law. (1) It's more geographically transferrable (i.e. you can go from NYC to DC or NYC to any city in America, but you can't really go from some tertiary market to NYC or to DC or even to another tertiary market as easily), (2) It sort of is a trial by fire type thing and if you can last a few years here, then you get a sort of badge of honor in the sense that people understand the shit you've been through (almost like an odd fraternity hazing routine)

This is helpful and it only confirms my desire to not bid NYC.

Mods please don't out that bidding comment wasn't a joke and people know who I am IRL on here.

[WhiskeynCoke]

OP, you've mentioned that non-NYC/DC corporate work is probably more humane in general. Do you have any friends (satellite office/law school) doing corporate work in CA? If you've heard anything, I'm particularly interested in your take on SF/SV offices, and how you think the QOL there compares to the NYC V5 brutality.

I've spoken to a few bay area corporate associates and your experience sounds far more miserable. For example, one 1st yr associate (V25) told me that he's typically able to leave the office by around 7ish 2 or 3 days per week, and only puts in a few hours on Sat & typically takes Sunday off. I've also talked to associates who had it much worse than that, but even their experiences didn't seem as oppressive as yours.

Any thoughts? I plan on avoiding NYC like the plague, I just hope CA truly is a little better, and not just a flame.

[rayiner]

Three points as an ex-V5 litigation associate:

1) Those "median career salaries" are meaningless unless you stick it out to years 4-6. That's where in-house opportunities a step above compliance open up.

2) Litigation is absolutely better, QoL wise. Less surprises, no waiting around for bankers, no changing the documents because the business folks changed the deal terms, etc. At a V5 firm, though, litigation is incredibly unfulfilling work. You do mostly doc review your first year, then in years 2-3 you graduate to managing doc reviews and doing doc review memos for the contract attorneys.

3) Exit options in litigation are shit. You had better be willing to litigate the rest of your life, and if you're lucky, you can work your way into a $90k/year job at a state government agency.

4) Secondary markets are less demanding, generally, but there are downsides. Morgan Lewis in Philadelphia doesn't have you bill out less hours because they're better people. They do it because they don't have enough work to go around. The redeeming quality of the V5 is that you really don't have to worry about getting shitcanned just because your hours are low. There has been a flight to quality post-recession, and while the V5 firms can't raise rates like they used to, they can at least keep their associates busy.

[Anonymous User]

OP, you've mentioned that non-NYC/DC corporate work is probably more humane in general. Do you have any friends (satellite office/law school) doing corporate work in CA? If you've heard anything, I'm particularly interested in your take on SF/SV offices, and how you think the QOL there compares to the NYC V5 brutality.

I've spoken to a few bay area corporate associates and your experience sounds far more miserable. For example, one 1st yr associate (V25) told me that he's typically able to leave the office by around 7ish 2 or 3 days per week, and only puts in a few hours on Sat & typically takes Sunday off. I've also talked to associates who had it much worse than that, but even their experiences didn't seem as oppressive as yours.

Any thoughts? I plan on avoiding NYC like the plague, I just hope CA truly is a little better, and not just a flame.

People I know at top tier corporate law firms in LA/SF work less than I do, but it's not because the work itself is less demanding, they just have less work than I do. No corporate associates outside of NY do as many deals per associate as done in NY. Whether that is "important" or "beneficial" or a "detriment" personally or professionally is up in the air and who knows.

I guess the analogy would be if getting deal experience was dick size, NY corporate associates would have by far the largest dicks, but a dick is only useful if you have something to fuck.

SF/SV is a bit different in that you'll be doing more company-side work so its different. You won't be bugged incessantly by bankers, but you'll get dumb questions from people at the companies you represent.

[thesealocust]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

You'll absolutely be happier. I went to the big city to do the "top deals" and it's basically complete flame. Honestly, there is no difference between Bubba Earl Jr. buying 10 Taco Bell franchises from Sir Roderick XIV in bumfuck America versus some F500 company doing some huge offering. In fact, now that I've worked on the latter, the former I would say sounds far more appealing in terms of substantive work, satisfaction, tangibility, and contacts.

So taking a $50k pay cut and losing out on the "prestige" and flashiness of V5s and big city deals isn't that bad? I tend to think I'd be way happier in a small market, but the V20 or bust and "NY/DC or gtfo" attitude kinda wears me down and makes me question my priorities. If you can't think of any redeeming quality of NYC biglaw then it's hard to argue with avoiding it.

Can't think of any redeeming quality?

Look, life's not fair, and everyone has shit to deal with. If you work in big city biglaw the shit you have to deal with is stress, high stakes, crazy personalities, etc... but you will literally be at the top of the profession while dealing with that shit.

As you're issued a shovel and a smock, you might begin to suspect that there's not much different from the shit you shovel at the top than the shit people shovel at not-the-top... but it's still the top. The cases are make or break, the deals have never been done before, the partners get called when the consequences of the matter are so existential that cost is literally not a factor. The people you work with will be the truly insane, broken ones but also the most brilliant and dedicated professionals you'll ever work side by side with.

You'll also be doing it in [big city]. If [big city] has no appeal to you, there's no reason to go... but being honest, [big city] has songs and movies and books written about it because people want to be there. You can make reasonable arguments about why nobody SHOULD, and you won't be wrong, but they do.

It's sort of like the quote at the beginning of Ender's Game - if it was just the matter of choosing the best, happiest life, of course you should avoid the big city fancy name & ampersand law firm.

But if it was the matter of choosing the best, happiest life, why did you study so hard for the LSAT? Why did you try so hard in college? Why are you on TLS trying to maximize your options for employment?

Look kid - you're a striver. Unless "smaller market" is your ancestral homeland and nobody is really sure why you're eyeing TX/CA/IL/NY/DC in the first place, just rip off the bandaid and continue right on fulfilling the prophecy or w/e.

[A. Nony Mouse]

So taking a $50k pay cut and losing out on the "prestige" and flashiness of V5s and big city deals isn't that bad? I tend to think I'd be way happier in a small market, but the V20 or bust and "NY/DC or gtfo" attitude kinda wears me down and makes me question my priorities. If you can't think of any redeeming quality of NYC biglaw then it's hard to argue with avoiding it.

You probably will be making just as much, if not more after adjusting for taxes, rent, etc. The NY/DC or gtfo attitude is odd to me and having bought into it I'm convinced its just for NY/DC people who regret going to NY/DC who (1) just want everyone else to be as miserable as they are or (2) trying to perpetuate the myth that NY/DC is somehow superior from an experience perspective.

That being said, there are some redeeming qualities of NYC big law. (1) It's more geographically transferrable (i.e. you can go from NYC to DC or NYC to any city in America, but you can't really go from some tertiary market to NYC or to DC or even to another tertiary market as easily), (2) It sort of is a trial by fire type thing and if you can last a few years here, then you get a sort of badge of honor in the sense that people understand the shit you've been through (almost like an odd fraternity hazing routine)

This is helpful and it only confirms my desire to not bid NYC.

Mods please don't out that bidding comment wasn't a joke and people know who I am IRL on here.

I'm not going to out this or anything, but it's fairly horrifying that someone believes that saying they don't want to bid NYC is something they have to hide from people who know them IRL.

[Anonymous User]

Can't think of any redeeming quality?

Look, life's not fair, and everyone has shit to deal with. If you work in big city biglaw the shit you have to deal with is stress, high stakes, crazy personalities, etc... but you will literally be at the top of the profession while dealing with that shit.

As you're issued a shovel and a smock, you might begin to suspect that there's not much different from the shit you shovel at the top than the shit people shovel at not-the-top... but it's still the top. The cases are make or break, the deals have never been done before, the partners get called when the consequences of the matter are so existential that cost is literally not a factor. The people you work with will be the truly insane, broken ones but also the most brilliant and dedicated professionals you'll ever work side by side with.

You'll also be doing it in [big city]. If [big city] has no appeal to you, there's no reason to go... but being honest, [big city] has songs and movies and books written about it because people want to be there. You can make reasonable arguments about why nobody SHOULD, and you won't be wrong, but they do.

It's sort of like the quote at the beginning of Ender's Game - if it was just the matter of choosing the best, happiest life, of course you should avoid the big city fancy name & ampersand law firm.

But if it was the matter of choosing the best, happiest life, why did you study so hard for the LSAT? Why did you try so hard in college? Why are you on TLS trying to maximize your options for employment?

I think all of this is on-point. But would you agree that if the main reason you wanted to be in [big city] is because of the prestige of [big city] legal work, then it might have been a poor choice? I think that is more analogous to the situation I am in.

[Cicero76]

Coffee is for closers

Lol. You make valid points. I might not be cut out to be a striver in the end, but being king of the mountain does have its perks.