big firm patent associate contemplating life, taking Qs Forum

[bulinus]

How much do IP groups or boutiques care about law review, relative to IP moot courts or clinics or stuff?

[papercut]

Are there major differences between CS and EE folks in terms of employability and exit options?

Yes.

Points for brevity.

I assume EE's have it better? They are more versatile.

How big is the difference?

[MinEMorris]

In light of what you know now, if you were transported back in time to when you were a 3L, what would you be doing right now?

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

How much do you wish you were doing pat pros right now

[Anonymous User]

Do you wish you had a lower-paying job with more free time, or are you happy to be making the money despite being miserable in the short term?

[Anonymous User]

Are there major differences between CS and EE folks in terms of employability and exit options?

Yes.

Points for brevity.

I assume EE's have it better? They are more versatile.

How big is the difference?

It's pretty big. EE folks can go to semiconductor, hardware/devices, and software companies. CS folks basically need to target software companies and there's a lot more competition to get in. Generally, an EE person can go in-house earlier than a software person. Industry experience on the EE side can also be more valuable than software because the software stuff is a lot easier to pick up.

A lot of the software in-house patent departments also have pretty bad reputations in terms of work-life balance. The software companies tend to be more attractive in terms of their growth, but lots of them are becoming brutal to work for.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the response.

Can you say more about this:

A lot of the software in-house patent departments also have pretty bad reputations in terms of work-life balance. The software companies tend to be more attractive in terms of their growth, but lots of them are becoming brutal to work for.

Ah crap, I accidentally used anon for this post.

[dood]

How much do IP groups or boutiques care about law review, relative to IP moot courts or clinics or stuff?

i dont think anyone cares about either. i mean, how much firms care would breakdown like this:

90% law school/grade
5% extracurriculars such as LR, moot court, clinic, etc.
5% prior work experience

[dood]

In light of what you know now, if you were transported back in time to when you were a 3L, what would you be doing right now?

dating more seriously. relationship is hard to maintain when working so much. my advice: lock something up as a 3L.

[84651846190]

How much do IP groups or boutiques care about law review, relative to IP moot courts or clinics or stuff?

i dont think anyone cares about either. i mean, how much firms care would breakdown like this:

90% law school/grade
5% extracurriculars such as LR, moot court, clinic, etc.
5% prior work experience

This is only for entry level hiring, of course. Work experience counts for a lot more once you have two or more years at a firm.

[bulinus]

Yeah, but that can't be right, b/c there's no room for the type or extent of your tech credentials, right?

I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth it to try to write on to LR, or just save that time to do either the IP clinic or moot court team at my school. I feel like the latter is a better use of everyone's time, but law student selection practices aren't a model of rationality.

How much do IP groups or boutiques care about law review, relative to IP moot courts or clinics or stuff?

i dont think anyone cares about either. i mean, how much firms care would breakdown like this:

90% law school/grade
5% extracurriculars such as LR, moot court, clinic, etc.
5% prior work experience

[oblitigate]

From talking to other associates at your firm, how much does QOL change across practice areas? (What is the best?)

dunno, bc i havent talked to associates in every area. but i will tell you what I know has shit QOL and why:

- patent troll litigation, because their job is to make life miserable for as long as possible for everyone until your client folds
- any litigation where the gov is the plaintiff (antitrust, SEC, etc), because the FTC, DOJ, SEC are all dickcheesburgers on powertrips, i.e. people who are trying to make a name for themselves for one reason or another
- FCPA, because you have to travel to 3rd world countries, and spend months away from your friends and family

I think it's the d counsel that makes life's miserable by arguing every fight and trying to run up billables before their clients fold. Not the troll firm on a contingency keeping costs streamlined/picking battles. But I am on other end . .

[Blessedassurance]

From talking to other associates at your firm, how much does QOL change across practice areas? (What is the best?)

dunno, bc i havent talked to associates in every area. but i will tell you what I know has shit QOL and why:

- patent troll litigation, because their job is to make life miserable for as long as possible for everyone until your client folds
- any litigation where the gov is the plaintiff (antitrust, SEC, etc), because the FTC, DOJ, SEC are all dickcheesburgers on powertrips, i.e. people who are trying to make a name for themselves for one reason or another
- FCPA, because you have to travel to 3rd world countries, and spend months away from your friends and family

I think it's the d counsel that makes life's miserable by arguing every fight and trying to run up billables before their clients fold. Not the troll firm on a contingency keeping costs streamlined/picking battles. But I am on other end . .

lol

[patogordo]

quick someone call congress, we need to do something about troll suit defendants

[09042014]

quick someone call congress, we need to do something about troll suit defendants

Fuck no. That shit's going to put our kids through college.

[Lincoln]

my friends who do transactional work equal number of hours, but they know when. i.e., the merger is set for X date, and all the transactional attorneys scramble to meet that date, sometimes working non-stop the days before.

lol no we don't. About 90% of the time, dates slip or are pushed up. Transactional is way, way more unpredictable.

This. What OP says about Friday motions is true, but at least I know when the trial is, I know when the other side's response to our MSJ is, etc.

My roommate, who is doing corporate at a similar-caliber firm, doesn't even know what he's doing five days from now, cause his billionaire PE client may just decide to buy something between now and then.

[dood]

my friends who do transactional work equal number of hours, but they know when. i.e., the merger is set for X date, and all the transactional attorneys scramble to meet that date, sometimes working non-stop the days before.

lol no we don't. About 90% of the time, dates slip or are pushed up. Transactional is way, way more unpredictable.

This. What OP says about Friday motions is true, but at least I know when the trial is, I know when the other side's response to our MSJ is, etc.

My roommate, who is doing corporate at a similar-caliber firm, doesn't even know what he's doing five days from now, cause his billionaire PE client may just decide to buy something between now and then.

yes, i could be wrong, obviously never done transactional work and i am slightly biased (hate life). but i think we can all agree that big firms will generally work associates like slaves, some are better masters than others, but slaves nonetheless.

[Lincoln]

my friends who do transactional work equal number of hours, but they know when. i.e., the merger is set for X date, and all the transactional attorneys scramble to meet that date, sometimes working non-stop the days before.

lol no we don't. About 90% of the time, dates slip or are pushed up. Transactional is way, way more unpredictable.

This. What OP says about Friday motions is true, but at least I know when the trial is, I know when the other side's response to our MSJ is, etc.

My roommate, who is doing corporate at a similar-caliber firm, doesn't even know what he's doing five days from now, cause his billionaire PE client may just decide to buy something between now and then.

yes, i could be wrong, obviously never done transactional work and i am slightly biased (hate life). but i think we can all agree that big firms will generally work associates like slaves, some are better masters than others, but slaves nonetheless.

Agreed. Highly paid indentured servitude is how I think of it (if you have loans). I've billed 800+ hrs so far this year.

[gdane]

No questions. Just wanted to say thanks for uploading your antitrust and copyright outlines. They really helped me.

[Big Shrimpin]

Thoughts & prayers, breh, I feel your pain.

We started from the bottom and we're still there.

[Anonymous User]

Just saw that this thread was bumped from a couple of weeks ago, but any help is appreciated.

First, are there any differences between practice groups, or do you think all litigation associates hate their life? I'm looking to make a decision between commercial and patent litigation. From what I could see last summer, the associates in patents worked more, but they also went to trial a lot more than the commercial groups. Would more trial work be better experience? The commercial groups are a lot more fractured than the patent group, would it be better to get pigeonholed into a commercial group (like antitrust or securities) or work in one of the larger patent groups? The partners are more well known in patent, but I don't know if this makes a difference.

Second, are the exit options really that bad for non-technical backgrounds? I just looked at my firm's website, and about half of the associates in patent litigation have non-technical backgrounds. That's a lot of associates, are they all screwed without a tech background? I don't have a tech background, but everyone I talked to at the firm said it didn't make a difference. I remember interviewing with the head of a smaller patent lit department at OCI and only 2 of the 14 attorneys had tech backgrounds. The partner said it didn't make much of a difference. But I don't know if this is just something they tell naive law students or what.

Third, how do you stay away from the more demanding partners/senior associates? I remember one associate told me about how she was screwed with her office assignment. She got put next to a partner (in a different lit group) that would give all his work to her because she was the closest associate. He would demand updates on his cases every couple of hours, and he wanted her to drop all her other work to work on his cases. She said she was hoping one of the partners in her group would go to bat and tell the other partner to back off, but she said it hadn't happened yet.

Thanks again for any insight.

[Anonymous User]

^^bump^^

[Anonymous User]

Just saw that this thread was bumped from a couple of weeks ago, but any help is appreciated.

First, are there any differences between practice groups, or do you think all litigation associates hate their life? I'm looking to make a decision between commercial and patent litigation. From what I could see last summer, the associates in patents worked more, but they also went to trial a lot more than the commercial groups. Would more trial work be better experience? The commercial groups are a lot more fractured than the patent group, would it be better to get pigeonholed into a commercial group (like antitrust or securities) or work in one of the larger patent groups? The partners are more well known in patent, but I don't know if this makes a difference.

Second, are the exit options really that bad for non-technical backgrounds? I just looked at my firm's website, and about half of the associates in patent litigation have non-technical backgrounds. That's a lot of associates, are they all screwed without a tech background? I don't have a tech background, but everyone I talked to at the firm said it didn't make a difference. I remember interviewing with the head of a smaller patent lit department at OCI and only 2 of the 14 attorneys had tech backgrounds. The partner said it didn't make much of a difference. But I don't know if this is just something they tell naive law students or what.

Third, how do you stay away from the more demanding partners/senior associates? I remember one associate told me about how she was screwed with her office assignment. She got put next to a partner (in a different lit group) that would give all his work to her because she was the closest associate. He would demand updates on his cases every couple of hours, and he wanted her to drop all her other work to work on his cases. She said she was hoping one of the partners in her group would go to bat and tell the other partner to back off, but she said it hadn't happened yet.

Thanks again for any insight.

2nd year IP lit associate here.

1. Yes, you generally get better experience faster in IP lit compared to other practices, although that may be changing because a lot of cases are getting stayed and the district court patent dockets have reeeeeally slowed down because of the Patent Office's new IPR proceedings and uncertainty about the future of patent law (as Congress dicks around with a bunch of patent troll bills that are really designed to shut down IP litigation as we know it). I don't know much about other litigation groups, but my impression is that associate experiences vary significantly based on specialty (e.g., the privacy lit people seem really busy and seem to have good exit options, but the securities folks seem to not have enough work).

2. A tech background helps if you want to do IPR stuff (because you need a tech background to practice before the USPTO). It also helps you land in house jobs. I'd say there are probably 30 in house positions for patent prosecutors for every 1 in house position for patent litigators. (No, I'm not exaggerating.) If you plan on staying with firms, however, I don't think your lack of a tech background will hurt you in the long run. There are plenty of people practicing at firms (both large and small) who do mostly patent litigation and don't have tech backgrounds.

3. Office politics are the most difficult part about working at a firm, IMO. You need to be well liked and respected by everyone, but you also need to stick up for yourself and asked to get the kind of experience you want. Sometimes the most demanding partners give you the best experience, but sometimes you just get staffed with a shitty partner who gives you shitty work AND treats you like shit. I definitely would NOT make it obvious that you don't want to work with particular partners, because that might turn off other partners to working with you. I would work the back channels and get senior associates (who are closer to the partners you want to work for) to go to bat for you. Before you can focus on office politics, however, you need to make sure you have a rock solid reputation of producing on-time, flawless work product. If you do good work, people will want to work with you and you'll have more options. Sometimes you can't control things, however, and you just have to stick it out working with a shitty partner until the case is over. Somebody's gotta do the shit work, and that usually means the most junior attorneys.

One more thing: DO NOT view other junior attorneys as stepping stones or pawns you can play games with in order to work with the people you want to work with. I've seen this come back to haunt people at my firm. Associates are smart people. If you throw one of them under the bus, even subtly, they're going to remember. And you know what? Other people at the firm might like them better than you, so make sure everyone views you in a positive light.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of options are there to do IP for someone without a hard sciences background? Do those who haven't sat for the patent bar still have the opportunity to work on patent litigation? Is there a separate soft IP practice? How do associates get onto those types of cases?

[Anonymous User]

For someone with a bio PhD wanting to go into patent pros and applying for a 2L SA (which, as you know, often leads to a post-grad offer), what would be the best type of 1L summer job for being most marketable to a biglaw IP firm? Obviously there are a lot of variables, but for patent pros, what order would you place these 1L summer jobs in in terms of most desirable for hiring as a 2L:
-patent examiner extern at USPTO
-SA at a law firm (non-IP work)
-SA at a law firm (IP work)
-research assistantship at the law school researching IP issues
-legal internship at a biotech/pharma/med device company (IP focus)

Thanks!