Guide: HLS '13 General EIP/OCI Advice 4 Marginal Candidates Forum

[fats provolone]

I wouldn't drop out before oci. do your summer gig, see how you like doing law stuff, see how oci goes

i mean how do you define screwed? you aren't gonna have your pick of biglaw jobs. but I doubt two LPs is a death sentence that you need X Hs minimum to escape. it just doesn't work like that

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't drop out before oci. do your summer gig, see how you like doing law stuff, see how oci goes

i mean how do you define screwed? you aren't gonna have your pick of biglaw jobs. but I doubt two LPs is a death sentence that you need X Hs minimum to escape. it just doesn't work like that

Screwed is striking out at EIP or having to bid secondary markets like Cleveland, Charlotte (I'm sure they're fine markets I just don't have any ties) or "never heard of it" NYC firms.

A "never heard of it" NYC firm isn't a death knell but it will be hard to explain to peers who perceive the firm as a firm people go to when they have no other options.

How does it work if it's not "you need straight H's or 'all but one' to escape"?

[fats provolone]

A "never heard of it" NYC firm isn't a death knell but it will be hard to explain to peers who perceive the firm as a firm people go to when they have no other options.

this doesn't matter at all though

I'm not that familiar with eip so I can't speak authoritatively but I'm pretty sure ppl with straight Ps can get [insert random NYC biglaw firm] if they bid conservatively etc. so I'd say you're fine if that's what you want. but it sounds like more of an issue of expectations

[Anonymous User]

A "never heard of it" NYC firm isn't a death knell but it will be hard to explain to peers who perceive the firm as a firm people go to when they have no other options.

this doesn't matter at all though

I'm not that familiar with eip so I can't speak authoritatively but I'm pretty sure ppl with straight Ps can get [insert random NYC biglaw firm] if they bid conservatively etc. so I'd say you're fine if that's what you want. but it sounds like more of an issue of expectations

Yes I came in wanting a firm/other position where telling people you work there signals you've done well for yourself.

I obviously didn't go into exams thinking "I'll be fine with straight Ps." But now I got a nice hard reality check so I want to know what's realistic.

1. Is it realistic to expect to go from that bad of a first semester to "straight Hs or 'all but one class'" in the Spring? People improve and there's variance but I'd think most improvements are of the "1H in the Fall, 2 in the Spring" sort and not a grand scale aboutface.
2. Is it realistic to feel assured that if I pull off the aboutface in 1., I'll be fine with 3-5Hs and V20 NYC (20 is an arbitrary number, I just use it as shorthand)
3. HLS happens to be a target for things like McKinsey and banks and such. I don't know how heavily they weigh 1L grades as I've heard that they care more about performance in case/technical interviews, but I can't imagine that they can look at my 1L Fall transcript and not think "he or she couldn't handle it."

So is it realistic to think of McKinsey and banks as "a way out" or are they more "it's possible in the sense that anything's possible, but don't count on it."

[fats provolone]

there's just no point in trying to statistically analyze the odds of a hypothetical student in your position improving next semester. even if the question is answerable, it has no value. your time is better spent trying to figure out why you underperformed and how you can fix it.

i have no idea abt mckinsey et al but i would guess they are more background and interview selective than grades. i mean they mostly hire from b schools who don't even disclose grades right. it's a lot of work to prep for those interviews though so maybe talk to career svcs or any ppl you know in consulting who can give you a better idea if it's worth the effort.

maybe it will be a blessing in disguise if it gets you to focus on a job you'll be happier working at vs one with name recognition that is honestly pretty empty. though i understand the impulse

[Anonymous User]

there's just no point in trying to statistically analyze the odds of a hypothetical student in your position improving next semester. even if the question is answerable, it has no value. your time is better spent trying to figure out why you underperformed and how you can fix it.

i have no idea abt mckinsey et al but i would guess they are more background and interview selective than grades. i mean they mostly hire from b schools who don't even disclose grades right. it's a lot of work to prep for those interviews though so maybe talk to career svcs or any ppl you know in consulting who can give you a better idea if it's worth the effort.

maybe it will be a blessing in disguise if it gets you to focus on a job you'll be happier working at vs one with name recognition that is honestly pretty empty. though i understand the impulse

Well there's value in the sense of, if 1. it's not realistic to expect that big of a turnaround even if the things that caused the underperformance are "extrinsic" or "easily fixable"; or 2. even if I pull off the turnaround, it won't matter at EIP because my 1L Fall casts enough doubt to sink me, then that influences the "cut my losses" decision that's upcoming.

Basically what makes being at HLS different than another "poor 1L Fall grades...drop out?" thread?

[fats provolone]

by all means if you don't want to be a lawyer drop out. but you still have pretty good outcomes available to you. that's why I wouldn't say drop out.

[Anonymous User]

by all means if you don't want to be a lawyer drop out. but you still have pretty good outcomes available to you. that's why I wouldn't say drop out.

I don't desperately want to be a lawyer, but it's not the case that I don't want to be a lawyer either. At the moment I want to be a lawyer more than I want to be [any other one alternative profession] but if there's no coming back from this then I might call it quits when I'm still "ahead."

[Anonymous User]

So, back in the day (did EIP in 2010) I had an LP in the fall (in LRW), followed by 2 more LPs in the spring (the rest were Ps). I had one callback. It was tough - I didn't play it as cautious as I should have and OCS didn't help me create a bid list that was realistic enough (they helped some, but things were so different because of the market at the time that I don't think they really knew the best approach). Luckily the callback turned into an offer.

You aren't screwed. You will find something. You can work on bringing up your grades, if you can (I brought mine up 2L and 3L years when it didn't matter, but only by taking really fluffy classes - legit law classes were not my thing, apparently), but no matter what happens make sure you are proactive in getting ready for EIP. Bid in New York, even if you don't want to be in New York. Bid the secondary markets you have connections to. Mass mail. Do all the things you can, just in case. Maybe it won't matter (my firm took me, so multiple LPs and no Hs isn't a death knell, not even back when the market was struggling more than it is now). If you don't want to be a lawyer, go to EIP and bid on all the consulting firms IN ADDITION to all the law firms.

I wouldn't drop out unless I was positive I didn't want to be a lawyer AND I knew what I wanted to do that wasn't being a lawyer. No need to decide yet. It sucks to get LPs, but as I like to say now, LPs get degrees Just focus on doing better this semester, and try to relax. And remember that even if you don't do better, you will still have some fantastic options as long as you are smart. Good luck!

[Anonymous because the combination of my name + grades makes me 100% identifiable to my firm]

[Anonymous User]

So, back in the day (did EIP in 2010) I had an LP in the fall (in LRW), followed by 2 more LPs in the spring (the rest were Ps). I had one callback. It was tough - I didn't play it as cautious as I should have and OCS didn't help me create a bid list that was realistic enough (they helped some, but things were so different because of the market at the time that I don't think they really knew the best approach). Luckily the callback turned into an offer.

You aren't screwed. You will find something. You can work on bringing up your grades, if you can (I brought mine up 2L and 3L years when it didn't matter, but only by taking really fluffy classes - legit law classes were not my thing, apparently), but no matter what happens make sure you are proactive in getting ready for EIP. Bid in New York, even if you don't want to be in New York. Bid the secondary markets you have connections to. Mass mail. Do all the things you can, just in case. Maybe it won't matter (my firm took me, so multiple LPs and no Hs isn't a death knell, not even back when the market was struggling more than it is now). If you don't want to be a lawyer, go to EIP and bid on all the consulting firms IN ADDITION to all the law firms.

I wouldn't drop out unless I was positive I didn't want to be a lawyer AND I knew what I wanted to do that wasn't being a lawyer. No need to decide yet. It sucks to get LPs, but as I like to say now, LPs get degrees Just focus on doing better this semester, and try to relax. And remember that even if you don't do better, you will still have some fantastic options as long as you are smart. Good luck!

[Anonymous because the combination of my name + grades makes me 100% identifiable to my firm]

Thanks for this. I knew firms like McKinsey "recruit on campus," but didn't know that enough of them came that you bid for them the same way you bid law firms. I probably would have bid on all the consulting firms anyway once I realized that they were an option even if I weren't in the mess I'm in now, but I know that a key difference is that if you don't do a 2L Summer at a law firm, it's gonna be hard to be at a law firm. Whereas with consulting, "there's always next year." That's how finance works in undergrad too, come to think of it.

So basically, you made an uninformed bidlist in a worse hiring on the tail of the grade change and came through in the clutch with the 1 callback? Anything else that might be relevant like: dashing interviewer in the 1 callback, poor interviewer in the other 29?

I mean given my current panic, I don't plan to follow this semester up with more LPs. But is there an explanation for what happened to you other than "they weren't your thing"?

Even if I got no LPs this semester and "just" straight P'd, I'd still be sweating how I rally next semester. Did your approach change at all from the Fall to the Spring?

[Anonymous User]

So, back in the day (did EIP in 2010) I had an LP in the fall (in LRW), followed by 2 more LPs in the spring (the rest were Ps). I had one callback. It was tough - I didn't play it as cautious as I should have and OCS didn't help me create a bid list that was realistic enough (they helped some, but things were so different because of the market at the time that I don't think they really knew the best approach). Luckily the callback turned into an offer.

You aren't screwed. You will find something. You can work on bringing up your grades, if you can (I brought mine up 2L and 3L years when it didn't matter, but only by taking really fluffy classes - legit law classes were not my thing, apparently), but no matter what happens make sure you are proactive in getting ready for EIP. Bid in New York, even if you don't want to be in New York. Bid the secondary markets you have connections to. Mass mail. Do all the things you can, just in case. Maybe it won't matter (my firm took me, so multiple LPs and no Hs isn't a death knell, not even back when the market was struggling more than it is now). If you don't want to be a lawyer, go to EIP and bid on all the consulting firms IN ADDITION to all the law firms.

I wouldn't drop out unless I was positive I didn't want to be a lawyer AND I knew what I wanted to do that wasn't being a lawyer. No need to decide yet. It sucks to get LPs, but as I like to say now, LPs get degrees Just focus on doing better this semester, and try to relax. And remember that even if you don't do better, you will still have some fantastic options as long as you are smart. Good luck!

[Anonymous because the combination of my name + grades makes me 100% identifiable to my firm]

Thanks for this. I knew firms like McKinsey "recruit on campus," but didn't know that enough of them came that you bid for them the same way you bid law firms. I probably would have bid on all the consulting firms anyway once I realized that they were an option even if I weren't in the mess I'm in now, but I know that a key difference is that if you don't do a 2L Summer at a law firm, it's gonna be hard to be at a law firm. Whereas with consulting, "there's always next year." That's how finance works in undergrad too, come to think of it.

So basically, you made an uninformed bidlist in a worse hiring on the tail of the grade change and came through in the clutch with the 1 callback? Anything else that might be relevant like: dashing interviewer in the 1 callback, poor interviewer in the other 29?

I mean given my current panic, I don't plan to follow this semester up with more LPs. But is there an explanation for what happened to you other than "they weren't your thing"?

Even if I got no LPs this semester and "just" straight P'd, I'd still be sweating how I rally next semester. Did your approach change at all from the Fall to the Spring?

I was a pretty good interviewer - obviously some went better than others (the interview where the partner spent the entire 20 minutes telling me I should clerk right after I said I didn't have plans to clerk didn't go well), but if your grades don't meet the cut off, it really doesn't matter. For the most part, I think it came down to grades. The highlight of EIP was definitely when an interviewer asked "What does this LP stand for? I haven't seen one of those." sighhhh

I did better in LRW the next semester, and got my LPs in other classes, one that I literally understood nothing in (it was bad - don't take the wrong international law class) and the other where I messed up one of the questions and the professor wasn't very forgiving. Each of my LPs was fully deserved, and I put in minimal effort in both of those classes. I think if you are proactive you should at least be able to get Ps - if you don't understand something, go see the professor. And pay enough attention in class so that you actually know if you don't understand something - I didn't know what I didn't know in one of the classes because I wasn't paying attention. I basically hated law school and most of the law school classes, and after not catching on quickly during 1L I realized it didn't really matter how I did 2L and 3L year and worked the appropriate amount to get where I needed to go.

Really, you will be fine. Fix whatever your fall issue was, and relax. You will do better, but don't set unreasonable goals and burn out too early (better to focus on doing your best and getting a mix of Ps and Hs than gunning for straight Hs, burning out, and getting Ps and LPs again). And remember, if you don't do better, it'll all work out. I ended up in a great situation that I never would have been in if I had gotten straight Hs, so getting the LPs ended up being a good thing for me.

Hope that helps!

[Anonymous User]

Found this thread linked in the OP of that HLS EIP 2015 thread. I haven't even begun to construct a bidlist yet, because my question is more fundamental and my situation direr.

Basically, I'm in the same situation as the most recent anonymous alum to respond who said he got a good outcome during a harsher recruiting year.

Something like 9P/1LP. My pre-1L resume looks pretty standard for someone at HLS. Some big name non-profit organizations but unpaid. Some minimal paralegaling at a firm people have heard of.

In other words, I'm totally screwed. Is there any way I can come out of this with a job in hand while saving face? Should I just skip EIP and do something else 2L summer to credibly claim I "chose" the alternative route? If I do that, is the biglaw route forever closed?

[jbagelboy]

Found this thread linked in the OP of that HLS EIP 2015 thread. I haven't even begun to construct a bidlist yet, because my question is more fundamental and my situation direr.

Basically, I'm in the same situation as the most recent anonymous alum to respond who said he got a good outcome during a harsher recruiting year.

Something like 9P/1LP. My pre-1L resume looks pretty standard for someone at HLS. Some big name non-profit organizations but unpaid. Some minimal paralegaling at a firm people have heard of.

In other words, I'm totally screwed. Is there any way I can come out of this with a job in hand while saving face? Should I just skip EIP and do something else 2L summer to credibly claim I "chose" the alternative route? If I do that, is the biglaw route forever closed?

No you can probably still get a job at a non-selective market paying NY firm if you interview fine, it just won't be a fancy firm

The corporate hiring market is hot and a T6 grad with any charm won't go hungry. Of course, if you bid poorly or make a fool of yourself, who knows. But the grades alone won't do you in for every large firm

[akroh88]

might be checking in

[jbagelboy]

No you can probably still get a job at a non-selective market paying NY firm if you interview fine, it just won't be a fancy firm

The corporate hiring market is hot and a T6 grad with any charm won't go hungry. Of course, if you bid poorly or make a fool of yourself, who knows. But the grades alone won't do you in for every large firm

I'm not a bad/stiff interviewer but nor am I a natural red-carpet presence.

I was probably going to bid NY anyway, and non-selective market paying NY firm is fine, but when you say it won't be a "fancy" firm, does that mean it'll be one of those firms that will instantly out me to other law students/"the profession" as a bottom of the 1L HLS class sort of person?

Not necessarily; I mean look at the class size information in the 2015 SA class info thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... s#p8601078. There are HLS students at just about every firm in New York. I'm sure places like Wilkie and Schulte Roth don't really care what your grades are at H; they'll screen for personality but that's it.

What do you mean by "out" you? Do you really feel people judge you that way or think about it? Maybe a few do, but those people aren't worth it in the first place.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

No you can probably still get a job at a non-selective market paying NY firm if you interview fine, it just won't be a fancy firm

The corporate hiring market is hot and a T6 grad with any charm won't go hungry. Of course, if you bid poorly or make a fool of yourself, who knows. But the grades alone won't do you in for every large firm

I'm not a bad/stiff interviewer but nor am I a natural red-carpet presence.

I was probably going to bid NY anyway, and non-selective market paying NY firm is fine, but when you say it won't be a "fancy" firm, does that mean it'll be one of those firms that will instantly out me to other law students/"the profession" as a bottom of the 1L HLS class sort of person?[/quote]

You really shouldn't give a shit about how your classmates perceive your firm. As long as the paychecks are good, that's what matters. For what it's worth, there are HLS people at pretty much every firm, including less PREFTIGIOUS ones. Nobody judges unless the firm is not in good financial shape or something like that.

[Anonymous User]

Not necessarily; I mean look at the class size information in the 2015 SA class info thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=239113&p=8601078&hilit=2015+Summer+Classes#p8601078. There are HLS students at just about every firm in New York. I'm sure places like Wilkie and Schulte Roth don't really care what your grades are at H; they'll screen for personality but that's it.

Is there a way to "get back in the game"? Like do something non-biglaw for my 2L summer, then reapply as a 3L or after graduation (assuming the BIG assumption that things get better from here).

Or is 2L OCI your "one shot," and if you blow it, you're never getting back on the biglaw track?

[jbagelboy]

Not necessarily; I mean look at the class size information in the 2015 SA class info thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=239113&p=8601078&hilit=2015+Summer+Classes#p8601078. There are HLS students at just about every firm in New York. I'm sure places like Wilkie and Schulte Roth don't really care what your grades are at H; they'll screen for personality but that's it.

Is there a way to "get back in the game"? Like do something non-biglaw for my 2L summer, then reapply as a 3L or after graduation (assuming the BIG assumption that things get better from here).

Or is 2L OCI your "one shot," and if you blow it, you're never getting back on the biglaw track?

3L OCI is growing with no end in sight, at least for corporate. If you don't wind up with any offers you really like after 2L OCI, cop a couple H's in some lighter classes 2L, maybe get something published and try as a 3L. Lots of the firms you probably think of as being "in the game" -- e.g. Simpson Thacher, Cravath, Paul Weiss -- are attending EIP these days (I haven't actually checked that these firms are this year, but they will definitely interview you).

The one caveat is, as I mentioned, you'd get an offer for the corporate groups. For die-hard lit, probably best bet is to do well 2L/3L, get a couple profs to back you, start at your firm and apply for d.court clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not a die-hard lit person. I'm more of a will-work-for-breakfast person.

Is Corp growing just for 3Ls, or for 2Ls too?

You seem to know about a bunch of schools, not just any one of them. For my own peace of mind, do you know how much better of a situation I would've been in had I gone to Y/S? Or is there no point in speculating?

[jbagelboy]

I can't possibly see any value in speculating. I don't think I know anything more than others, I just know someone in your position is not KO'd for large firms and if you want a fancier one in a year and improve your candidacy, 3L hiring is hotter right now than it's been for years.

It's certainly easier for students at Yale since they have no curve and no first semester grades, so employers pay even less attention to the notes handed out. But they still have to sit through interviews, as will you; focus on what you can control, and good luck.

[Anonymous User]

3L hiring is hotter right now than it's been for years.

Sorry, I just looked at HLS EIP 2014 stats. And it shows, e.g., that Cravath was bid on by 25 3Ls, interviewed about 13, but called no one back.

Other firms in that range are similarly bleak. So in what way is 3L hiring "hot"?

[Anonymous User]

it might be a down year for 3L hiring... pretty much nobody is coming to EIP for 3Ls (i guess you could go to the hospitality suites and maybe snatch an interview or two)....

[Anonymous User]

Yes that's what the 2014 data show but apparently jbagelboy has some other info indicating that 3L hiring is "hot"

[Anonymous User]

It could be simply anecdotal. I'm finishing a SA at a V5 and got an email from HR saying that the firm is very willing to take referrals from summers about friends wishing to interview with the firm (but with a hint that they would only be looked at seriously if they were at another firm).

[Blessedassurance]

Found this thread linked in the OP of that HLS EIP 2015 thread. I haven't even begun to construct a bidlist yet, because my question is more fundamental and my situation direr.

Basically, I'm in the same situation as the most recent anonymous alum to respond who said he got a good outcome during a harsher recruiting year.

Something like 9P/1LP. My pre-1L resume looks pretty standard for someone at HLS. Some big name non-profit organizations but unpaid. Some minimal paralegaling at a firm people have heard of.

In other words, I'm totally screwed. Is there any way I can come out of this with a job in hand while saving face? Should I just skip EIP and do something else 2L summer to credibly claim I "chose" the alternative route? If I do that, is the biglaw route forever closed?

Whatever you end up doing, don't skip EIP. People with straight P's (even though that is not your exact situation) end up getting all kinds of outcomes people near the top of their class at other schools do not get. EIP can get pretty random. I mean what's the worst that can happen if you go? At worst, you'd be in the same position as skipping.

I also don't get why you are all concerned with what your classmates think. Seriously, it doesn't matter, and it will matter even less once you graduate. EIP is just one hurdle in a series of hurdles subject to a whole host of factors possibly outside your control. People cruise through EIP only to get no-offered at their 2L firm. People get lathamed/stealthed etc.

You need to do what's best for you. Yu should also probably stop worrying so much about what other people will think, but that's just me.