2014 Vault Rankings Forum

[Bronte]

I strongly disagree with the notion that a normal person shouldn't worry about prestige. People make decisions all the time based on the perceptions of others. Cars, homes, watches, cell phones, and yes, careers are all ways that people try to distinguish themselves from others. The problem with law students is that most of them still live in a very insular world where their perceptions of prestige are based on their law student peers. Once students have left school and begin to interact with non-lawyers in a variety of social settings they will discover that the V-10 firm does not impress others as much being a lawyer with a high salary. The classic post about S&C shoulder bags illustrates this point pretty well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=195625

Vault rankings don't matter for exit options any more than the overall US News rankings matter for recruiting purposes. Headhunters do not anxiously bite their fingernails until the end of June hoping that their candidate's firm is still V-X. True story: I know a guy from Wachtel who wanted to go to a US law firm in China. It took him forever to find a position even though the hiring market was hot because none of the US firms' Chinese recruiters knew what a Wachtel was. This is just one example, but it illustrates that rankings don't matter as much as the brand name in many cases.

I will give you that Vault may be one place to start researching for someone who doesn't understand the biglaw scene. But IMO besides giving a general lay of the land it is fairly useless.

Your posting has gone completely off the rails. You've switched over to anonymous for no apparent reason, you're talking about whether women will be impressed by the fact that you're at a V10, and you're telling stories about "Wachtel [sic]" lawyers applying for jobs in China. I don't even know where to start.

[fanlinxun]

I strongly disagree with the notion that a normal person shouldn't worry about prestige. People make decisions all the time based on the perceptions of others. Cars, homes, watches, cell phones, and yes, careers are all ways that people try to distinguish themselves from others. The problem with law students is that most of them still live in a very insular world where their perceptions of prestige are based on their law student peers. Once students have left school and begin to interact with non-lawyers in a variety of social settings they will discover that the V-10 firm does not impress others as much being a lawyer with a high salary. The classic post about S&C shoulder bags illustrates this point pretty well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=195625

Vault rankings don't matter for exit options any more than the overall US News rankings matter for recruiting purposes. Headhunters do not anxiously bite their fingernails until the end of June hoping that their candidate's firm is still V-X. True story: I know a guy from Wachtel who wanted to go to a US law firm in China. It took him forever to find a position even though the hiring market was hot because none of the US firms' Chinese recruiters knew what a Wachtel was. This is just one example, but it illustrates that rankings don't matter as much as the brand name in many cases.

I will give you that Vault may be one place to start researching for someone who doesn't understand the biglaw scene. But IMO besides giving a general lay of the land it is fairly useless.

Your posting has gone completely off the rails. You've switched over to anonymous for no apparent reason, you're talking about whether women will be impressed by the fact that you're at a V10, and you're telling stories about "Wachtel [sic]" lawyers applying for jobs in China. I don't even know where to start.

Hit anonymous on accident. I'm not going to explain the rest of my post. If you are unable to match up my two paragraphs with the points that you made then I am not going to do it for you.

[Old Gregg]

I strongly disagree with the notion that a normal person shouldn't worry about prestige. People make decisions all the time based on the perceptions of others. Cars, homes, watches, cell phones, and yes, careers are all ways that people try to distinguish themselves from others. The problem with law students is that most of them still live in a very insular world where their perceptions of prestige are based on their law student peers. Once students have left school and begin to interact with non-lawyers in a variety of social settings they will discover that the V-10 firm does not impress others as much being a lawyer with a high salary. The classic post about S&C shoulder bags illustrates this point pretty well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=195625

Vault rankings don't matter for exit options any more than the overall US News rankings matter for recruiting purposes. Headhunters do not anxiously bite their fingernails until the end of June hoping that their candidate's firm is still V-X. True story: I know a guy from Wachtel who wanted to go to a US law firm in China. It took him forever to find a position even though the hiring market was hot because none of the US firms' Chinese recruiters knew what a Wachtel was. This is just one example, but it illustrates that rankings don't matter as much as the brand name in many cases.

I will give you that Vault may be one place to start researching for someone who doesn't understand the biglaw scene. But IMO besides giving a general lay of the land it is fairly useless.

Your posting has gone completely off the rails. You've switched over to anonymous for no apparent reason, you're talking about whether women will be impressed by the fact that you're at a V10, and you're telling stories about "Wachtel [sic]" lawyers applying for jobs in China. I don't even know where to start.

Oh shit I'd have been genuinely confused if you had not thrown in that "[sic]."

[Bronte]

Hit anonymous on accident. I'm not going to explain the rest of my post. If you are unable to match up my two paragraphs with the points that you made then I am not going to do it for you.

It's fine. I'll pass on the explanation. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As for anonymous by accident, I feel your pain. I've petitioned the powers that be to put the anon button on the other side to no avail.

Oh shit I'd have been genuinely confused if you had not thrown in that "[sic]."

I added it just for you.

[AllTheLawz]

Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.

Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.

In my experience the recognizable firms are really only the top one or two in a given city/region (outside of NYC/DC of course, where a good number are known). Tons of non-lawyers know King & Spalding, Ropes & Gray, Jones Day, and a few others don't dominate a given region.

[Anonymous User]

Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.

Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.

Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.

What do you mean by "lay prestige"? Nonlawyers? Because the people I know in finance certainly understand the difference between a Jones Day and a V5.

[bk1]

This is just one example, but it illustrates ... in many cases.

Not sure how one example is an illustration of many cases, but whatevs... YOLO.

[84651846190]

Well, this finally proves that Williams & Connolly is the TTT that we always thought it was. What an idiotic rankings methodology.

[stillwater]

Well, this finally proves that Williams & Connolly is the TTT that we always thought it was. What an idiotic rankings methodology.

is Williams & Connolly that soap company i always see advertising at the mall?

[Anonymous User]

Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.

Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.

Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.

What do you mean by "lay prestige"? Nonlawyers? Because the people I know in finance certainly understand the difference between a Jones Day and a V5.

The non-lawyers I speak to have never heard of the vast majority of V5 or V10 firms I mention. They only know the few firms that they actually deal with, or who represent their companies. That is why you get far more non-lawyer recognition of the "brand" firms like Baker & McKenzie, dla piper, Jones Day, etc. than most others. I don't think I've ever came across a non-lawyer who (1) knew the difference in prestige between a firm like Jones Day and a V5, or (2) could even name more than one V10 firm if I asked him/her. Of course, if you deal with finance people who actually interact with a number of firms/lawyers on a regular basis, you are talking about a subset with a highly uncommon familiarity.

Here is an article about the top 25 firm "brands" study results:

http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticl ... 0528004347

The study looks like it was a survey of in-house counsel at major businesses and companies, asking which firms came to mind first, which they relied on for the biggest litigation etc. It can only help when, if you seek to go in house, those hiring you are so familiar with your firm, and place a high value on the work your firm provided. Again, I wouldn't use this as a reason to pick Baker & McKenzie or Jones Day over a top tier firm, but it certainly can provide a marginal benefit over peer firms.

[Borg]

All I can say to any of this is that the guy who used to do the therapy blog on Above the Law was at S&C before washing out and spending many more years in school to become a psychologist. That probably doesn't sound good to most of you, but the truth is that he's probably among the more successful S&C "alumni." He failed and had to ditch law entirely after just two years, but at least he figured out how to make himself happy and pursued that.

The truth is that most people wind up grinding their lives away at one in-house job or another after they wash out from firm life. The average compensation for HYSCCN lawyers mid-career is $200kish. Most of those people followed the "prestigious" track, and I'd hazard to guess that most V5 guys wind up with the same pay grade as the V100 guys. If you follow this track, you're going to wind up in the same grey vat of mush (if you're lucky ITE). If you avoided econ and finance classes all your life, went to a prestigious law school, are headed into a "prestigious" law firm, and have convinced yourself you're some kind of genius for having done it, I pity you because you're probably headed for a hard fall.

The problem with law school in general is that it attracts these "dreamer" types who are usually only intelligent in one way but have tons of arrogance, bullshit distinctions in humanities from undergrad, and parents who blow sunshine up their asses for writing great essays about Chaucer. It's just one step after another in doing things that you are 100% sure you will succeed at, just for the sake of success. So many people have required the approval of others for their whole lives, and as a result have never done something worthwhile that they might fail at, or taken a risk to see what they might actually enjoy or surprisingly get the hang of. Picking a firm based on Vault is just another link in the same chain. If you need the approval of others badly enough to look to a poorly vetted list to decide how to live your life, you're never going to be happy, and probably won't be successful.

[Bronte]

Well, this finally proves that Williams & Connolly is the TTT that we always thought it was. What an idiotic rankings methodology.

This is more than a bit ironic given your user name.

[guano]

I see fanlinxun choosing that super well known and über prestigious firm Binder & Binder

[dixiecupdrinking]

All I can say to any of this is that the guy who used to do the therapy blog on Above the Law was at S&C before washing out and spending many more years in school to become a psychologist. That probably doesn't sound good to most of you, but the truth is that he's probably among the more successful S&C "alumni." He failed and had to ditch law entirely after just two years, but at least he figured out how to make himself happy and pursued that.

The truth is that most people wind up grinding their lives away at one in-house job or another after they wash out from firm life. The average compensation for HYSCCN lawyers mid-career is $200kish. Most of those people followed the "prestigious" track, and I'd hazard to guess that most V5 guys wind up with the same pay grade as the V100 guys. If you follow this track, you're going to wind up in the same grey vat of mush (if you're lucky ITE). If you avoided econ and finance classes all your life, went to a prestigious law school, are headed into a "prestigious" law firm, and have convinced yourself you're some kind of genius for having done it, I pity you because you're probably headed for a hard fall.

The problem with law school in general is that it attracts these "dreamer" types who are usually only intelligent in one way but have tons of arrogance, bullshit distinctions in humanities from undergrad, and parents who blow sunshine up their asses for writing great essays about Chaucer. It's just one step after another in doing things that you are 100% sure you will succeed at, just for the sake of success. So many people have required the approval of others for their whole lives, and as a result have never done something worthwhile that they might fail at, or taken a risk to see what they might actually enjoy or surprisingly get the hang of. Picking a firm based on Vault is just another link in the same chain. If you need the approval of others badly enough to look to a poorly vetted list to decide how to live your life, you're never going to be happy, and probably won't be successful.

Damn bro.

Though I'm with you on the whole "arrogance-prestige whoring-being unhappy part." But why'd you have to go there with Chaucer?

[timbs4339]

Whether lay people or women at bars are going to think your firm is more prestigious shouldn't even be a consideration. If it is you need to have your head examined. If you're looking for recognition from laypeople, don't rely on the name of your white shoe firm or your job in general.

The Vault ranking is really useful only for law students and then only in wide swathes (for example, you can trust that V10s are going to have much higher grade cutoffs than V80s, but I have no clue if Milbank has a higher grade cutoff than Willkie). If you're interested in a practice group, Chambers is more important. When you've been practicing for awhile you won't need a ranking- you'll know who the players in your region and practice area are. If you become partner you might care about the PPP rankings in the AmLaw 200, but little else.

[Old Gregg]

All I can say to any of this is that the guy who used to do the therapy blog on Above the Law was at S&C before washing out and spending many more years in school to become a psychologist. That probably doesn't sound good to most of you, but the truth is that he's probably among the more successful S&C "alumni." He failed and had to ditch law entirely after just two years, but at least he figured out how to make himself happy and pursued that.

The truth is that most people wind up grinding their lives away at one in-house job or another after they wash out from firm life. The average compensation for HYSCCN lawyers mid-career is $200kish. Most of those people followed the "prestigious" track, and I'd hazard to guess that most V5 guys wind up with the same pay grade as the V100 guys. If you follow this track, you're going to wind up in the same grey vat of mush (if you're lucky ITE). If you avoided econ and finance classes all your life, went to a prestigious law school, are headed into a "prestigious" law firm, and have convinced yourself you're some kind of genius for having done it, I pity you because you're probably headed for a hard fall.

The problem with law school in general is that it attracts these "dreamer" types who are usually only intelligent in one way but have tons of arrogance, bullshit distinctions in humanities from undergrad, and parents who blow sunshine up their asses for writing great essays about Chaucer. It's just one step after another in doing things that you are 100% sure you will succeed at, just for the sake of success. So many people have required the approval of others for their whole lives, and as a result have never done something worthwhile that they might fail at, or taken a risk to see what they might actually enjoy or surprisingly get the hang of. Picking a firm based on Vault is just another link in the same chain. If you need the approval of others badly enough to look to a poorly vetted list to decide how to live your life, you're never going to be happy, and probably won't be successful.

You left a little spot on your chin. That Goldman Sachs bro must have had a lot in him!

[Anonymous User]

I don't think I've ever came across a non-lawyer who (1) knew the difference in prestige between a firm like Jones Day and a V5, or (2) could even name more than one V10 firm if I asked him/her.

Yeah, if you've never run across a nonlawyer who would recognize the name of a V10 firm, then we're hanging out with very different people I guess. Many of the nonlaywers I run across know the difference between a Cravath or SullCrom, and a Jones Day or DLA Piper. But those people often work in finance, in consulting, for news organizations, etc. Do they know whether SullCrom or Skadden is higher in the Vault rankings? Probably not. But, based off of a few conversations, I think they still have a general idea of which firms are more prestigious, just like I have a general idea of which consulting group, IBD, or PE firm is more prestigious.

It probably varies largely by what area of the country you're in. If you're a GC in Cleveland and you think Jones Day is the shit, I don't really care. Other law students / lawyers do, and that's fine. If you're the GC of a BB in NYC, then I do care what you have to say about which firms are the best. But there are a lot more of the Cleveland GC types than the NYC BB GC types. It's pretty much all about what's strong in a particular geographic area. Skadden topped the list, which isn't surprising. They're a really strong firm with a very broad presence.

I think it's stupid to think of things in terms of what firms are most recognizable across the country. If I wanted to end up in Cleveland, then I would find out what firms are most respected in Cleveland. Same if I wanted to go to Houston, San Diego, etc.

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

I love these debates about the prestigiousness of prestige.

[guano]

I love these debates about the prestigiousness of prestige.

It's an excellent topic for a scholarly article

[rad lulz]

Maybe some of you should not approach picking a law firm

Like picking a watch or a luxury car

[stillwater]

I love these debates about the prestigiousness of prestige.

It's an excellent topic for a scholarly article

yo guano, arent you completely unaffiliated with the legal profession?

[guano]

Maybe some of you should not approach picking a law firm

Like picking a watch or a luxury car

I'd say for most people it's exactly like picking a car - going for the best you can afford/get

[84651846190]

Well, this finally proves that Williams & Connolly is the TTT that we always thought it was. What an idiotic rankings methodology.

This is more than a bit ironic given your user name.

Fair.

[thefuturenow]

All I can say to any of this is that the guy who used to do the therapy blog on Above the Law was at S&C before washing out and spending many more years in school to become a psychologist. That probably doesn't sound good to most of you, but the truth is that he's probably among the more successful S&C "alumni." He failed and had to ditch law entirely after just two years, but at least he figured out how to make himself happy and pursued that.

The truth is that most people wind up grinding their lives away at one in-house job or another after they wash out from firm life. The average compensation for HYSCCN lawyers mid-career is $200kish. Most of those people followed the "prestigious" track, and I'd hazard to guess that most V5 guys wind up with the same pay grade as the V100 guys. If you follow this track, you're going to wind up in the same grey vat of mush (if you're lucky ITE). If you avoided econ and finance classes all your life, went to a prestigious law school, are headed into a "prestigious" law firm, and have convinced yourself you're some kind of genius for having done it, I pity you because you're probably headed for a hard fall.

The problem with law school in general is that it attracts these "dreamer" types who are usually only intelligent in one way but have tons of arrogance, bullshit distinctions in humanities from undergrad, and parents who blow sunshine up their asses for writing great essays about Chaucer. It's just one step after another in doing things that you are 100% sure you will succeed at, just for the sake of success. So many people have required the approval of others for their whole lives, and as a result have never done something worthwhile that they might fail at, or taken a risk to see what they might actually enjoy or surprisingly get the hang of. Picking a firm based on Vault is just another link in the same chain. If you need the approval of others badly enough to look to a poorly vetted list to decide how to live your life, you're never going to be happy, and probably won't be successful.

[thefuturenow]

Maybe some of you should not approach picking a law firm

Like picking a watch or a luxury car

I'd say for most people it's exactly like picking a car - going for the best you can afford/get

And then parking it outside of the sweatshop firm wherein you toil seemingly endlessly. . .