Michigan 2013 OCI Thread Forum

[potted plant]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

[mr.hands]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

Probably around top 1/3ish. I'd be surprised if your Career Services lets you approximate rank and put it on your resume, though. Be careful because that may be an honor code violation (at my school it is)

[Anonymous User]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

Not sure how much this helps but I'm a little below 3.25 and OCS told me very specifically that I was above median.

[potted plant]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

Not sure how much this helps but I'm a little below 3.25 and OCS told me very specifically that I was above median.

Oh, good to know. So median is probably closer to 3.22? If that's the case I feel more confidant saying this Anon is about top third, maybe a little higher. I'd err on the conservative side when your estimating for bidding purposes, though.

[Anonymous User]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

Not sure how much this helps but I'm a little below 3.25 and OCS told me very specifically that I was above median.

Oh, good to know. So median is probably closer to 3.22? If that's the case I feel more confidant saying this Anon is about top third, maybe a little higher. I'd err on the conservative side when your estimating for bidding purposes, though.

Don't worry about what employers say with regards to "top X% required." Thats just boilerplate.

[Anonymous User]

Regarding median: a friend of mine with a 3.22 was told by career services they were above median. The grading guidelines show median should be about a 3.19 (low of 3.13, high of 3.25) for first year courses.

Now, the anon part:

I have been pounding the pavement and arranging as many screeners as I can this summer in order to make OCI easier. I have a few call backs in the next few weeks from screeners I arranged. For any upperclassmen that have interviewed with Detroit area firms, would you mind posting which firms and what the callbacks were like? My first call back is fast approaching and I know it will be an all day event. I am wondering if anyone can chime in on the types of questions asked by Detroit firms and how the interviews were formatted (adversarial, laid back, etc.). Thanks for any input.

[RedSwingline]

Don't worry about what employers say with regards to "top X% required." Thats just boilerplate.

This is absolutely true. If you look at the GPA cutoffs on the Careers website, you'll see firms with 3.1-3.2 medians saying they require top 1/3 on Symplicity. For some firms, the requirements may be accurate, but it looks like a lot of firms just put something on Symplicity to save face and don't actually go by their stated standards.

Is everyone going to bid on only firms they are genuinely interested, or use all their bids for the sake of using them? That is, if there are only 24 firms you are truly interested in, are you only going to use 24 bids, or are you going to bid on random firms until all your bids are accounted for?

[hyakku]

Don't worry about what employers say with regards to "top X% required." Thats just boilerplate.

This is absolutely true. If you look at the GPA cutoffs on the Careers website, you'll see firms with 3.1-3.2 medians saying they require top 1/3 on Symplicity. For some firms, the requirements may be accurate, but it looks like a lot of firms just put something on Symplicity to save face and don't actually go by their stated standards.

Is everyone going to bid on only firms they are genuinely interested, or use all their bids for the sake of using them? That is, if there are only 24 firms you are truly interested in, are you only going to use 24 bids, or are you going to bid on random firms until all your bids are accounted for?

I'm thinking about doubling up on some firms that allow multiple interviews. Since I'm mainly bidding NY but would prefer CA, hopefully 3-5 firms that are big in NY and have large CA satellite offices will allow bids for multiple offices. Right now I've only really got about 20-25 firms I'm looking at, and the last few are just thrown in there, but I'm starting to rethink whether I would want to risk not getting an interview at one my top choices just so that I have more interviews at places I don't see myself at.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Don't worry about what employers say with regards to "top X% required." Thats just boilerplate.

This is absolutely true. If you look at the GPA cutoffs on the Careers website, you'll see firms with 3.1-3.2 medians saying they require top 1/3 on Symplicity. For some firms, the requirements may be accurate, but it looks like a lot of firms just put something on Symplicity to save face and don't actually go by their stated standards.

Is everyone going to bid on only firms they are genuinely interested, or use all their bids for the sake of using them? That is, if there are only 24 firms you are truly interested in, are you only going to use 24 bids, or are you going to bid on random firms until all your bids are accounted for?

I'm thinking about doubling up on some firms that allow multiple interviews. Since I'm mainly bidding NY but would prefer CA, hopefully 3-5 firms that are big in NY and have large CA satellite offices will allow bids for multiple offices. Right now I've only really got about 20-25 firms I'm looking at, and the last few are just thrown in there, but I'm starting to rethink whether I would want to risk not getting an interview at one my top choices just so that I have more interviews at places I don't see myself at.

I probably only have like 14-17 firms I am REALLY interested in and maybe like 21-24 that I am somewhat interested in but I used all 30. I pretty much know for sure the last 3-4 bids will not get me an interview as well as probably a couple in between.

I seriously thought about using only 26 or so bids but I bid on a few NYC firms just to fill it out. Still considering dropping them. Would be interested to see what others are doing.

[Anonymous User]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

[Anonymous User]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

I only applied to Law Review and my grades are terrible so I expect to not write-on successfully and get the form letter rejection, but I haven't received anything and haven't heard of anyone else receiving anything either. Our resumes are due on Thursday.

[Anonymous User]

at what percentile does 3.4 put me? I know the cutoffs in the firm profiles aren't to be taken literally but still would like to know appx. where I land.

does OCS release this info?

OCS does not release this information so you basically just have to guess. The first year classes are curved to about 3.25 so a median GPA is probably somewhere around there? (somebody else might know better). The majority of the class is clustered around the middle, so being at a 3.4 (assuming a 3.25 median) probably puts you a fair bit above median. Maybe top third?

Check this letter out: https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/types ... es2013.pdf

It is GPA at graduation so will skew slightly higher, but not by much. Probably .01-.03. The new pass/fail policy will also probably push your class's actual range higher as well but it also won't be that much.

A 3.4 puts you probably exactly at median or just slightly above. Top third would be more like a 3.5.

[Anonymous User]

Regarding median: a friend of mine with a 3.22 was told by career services they were above median. The grading guidelines show median should be about a 3.19 (low of 3.13, high of 3.25) for first year courses.

Now, the anon part:

I have been pounding the pavement and arranging as many screeners as I can this summer in order to make OCI easier. I have a few call backs in the next few weeks from screeners I arranged. For any upperclassmen that have interviewed with Detroit area firms, would you mind posting which firms and what the callbacks were like? My first call back is fast approaching and I know it will be an all day event. I am wondering if anyone can chime in on the types of questions asked by Detroit firms and how the interviews were formatted (adversarial, laid back, etc.). Thanks for any input.

Your friend was lied to or is lying. No way a 3.22 is even at median. Look at the ranking letter I just posted above. And I saw the information provided to my firm at OCI last year...3.22 isn't median. The median student did not score median in every class so you can't look at the median per class when weighing the cumulative GPA.

What screws you is, while the upperclass GPAs trend slightly higher, firms are provided almost the same information as in that letter and that's how they are judging you.

[hyakku]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

I only applied to Law Review and my grades are terrible so I expect to not write-on successfully and get the form letter rejection, but I haven't received anything and haven't heard of anyone else receiving anything either. Our resumes are due on Thursday.

Updated resumes for OCI? Damn what the hell, how did I miss this? Also, Lol +1 to only applying to LR despite not having grade on grades. After I finished I was too lazy to even consider doing other apps.

Your friend was lied to or is lying. No way a 3.22 is even at median. Look at the ranking letter I just posted at graduation. And I saw the information provided to my firm at OCI last year...3.22 isn't median. The median student did not score median in every class so you can't look at the median per class when weighing the cumulative GPA.

I don't know. At graduation the median rising from around 3.25 - 3. 40 seems completely plausible. I don't know what information you have from being at your firm so I can't speak to that, but median being above a B+ seems, from the small sample size I can think of, a bit high for 1L. It's not as if Michigan is lacking in inflated classes like Bloodfeuds

Also, we've got some pro anon use going on all in this thread. Half of you better not be like serial killers that are trying to mask your murderous pasts or something.

[Anonymous User]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

I only applied to Law Review and my grades are terrible so I expect to not write-on successfully and get the form letter rejection, but I haven't received anything and haven't heard of anyone else receiving anything either. Our resumes are due on Thursday.

Updated resumes for OCI? Damn what the hell, how did I miss this? Also, Lol +1 to only applying to LR despite not having grade on grades. After I finished I was too lazy to even consider doing other apps.

Your friend was lied to or is lying. No way a 3.22 is even at median. Look at the ranking letter I just posted at graduation. And I saw the information provided to my firm at OCI last year...3.22 isn't median. The median student did not score median in every class so you can't look at the median per class when weighing the cumulative GPA.

I don't know. At graduation the median rising from around 3.25 - 3. 40 seems completely plausible. I don't know what information you have from being at your firm so I can't speak to that, but median being above a B+ seems, from the small sample size I can think of, a bit high for 1L. It's not as if Michigan is lacking in inflated classes like Bloodfeuds

Also, we've got some pro anon use going on all in this thread. Half of you better not be like serial killers that are trying to mask your murderous pasts or something.

Anon because I prefer people not know what school I went to. I'm trying to keep this account more anonymous now that I've graduated.

Here's what I can tell you, I finished 1L at 3.5. I graduated with a 3.595 and I did drastically better 2L/3L (think an entire semester at 4.0 and at least 1 A each other semester with a smattering of A-s...nothing below a B+).

Most people I know graduated with only a slightly higher GPA than they had at the end of 1L. While the curves go higher, you're much busier 2L and just don't care 3L. As a result, the very top of the class tends to pull away more from the pack while top 25% and below tends to compress. I know just as many people that went down from 1L as that went up...even people on LR.

Upper class GPAs trend higher but not by as much as you think. Very few people are jumping .1 from 1L to graduation let alone .18 just to stay at median. To put that into perspective, .18 at graduation is the difference in class rank of nearly 25%. The curve tends to just be much more compressed than you would think so even minor differences are huge. So a huge difference ≠ a large jump in GPA.

[hyakku]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

I only applied to Law Review and my grades are terrible so I expect to not write-on successfully and get the form letter rejection, but I haven't received anything and haven't heard of anyone else receiving anything either. Our resumes are due on Thursday.

Updated resumes for OCI? Damn what the hell, how did I miss this? Also, Lol +1 to only applying to LR despite not having grade on grades. After I finished I was too lazy to even consider doing other apps.

Your friend was lied to or is lying. No way a 3.22 is even at median. Look at the ranking letter I just posted at graduation. And I saw the information provided to my firm at OCI last year...3.22 isn't median. The median student did not score median in every class so you can't look at the median per class when weighing the cumulative GPA.

I don't know. At graduation the median rising from around 3.25 - 3. 40 seems completely plausible. I don't know what information you have from being at your firm so I can't speak to that, but median being above a B+ seems, from the small sample size I can think of, a bit high for 1L. It's not as if Michigan is lacking in inflated classes like Bloodfeuds

Also, we've got some pro anon use going on all in this thread. Half of you better not be like serial killers that are trying to mask your murderous pasts or something.

Anon because I prefer people not know what school I went to. I'm trying to keep this account more anonymous now that I've graduated.

Here's what I can tell you, I finished 1L at 3.5. I graduated with a 3.595 and I did drastically better 2L/3L (think an entire semester at 4.0 and at least 1 A each other semester with a smattering of A-s...nothing below a B+). Most people I know graduated with only a slightly higher GPA than they had at the end of 1L. While the curves go higher, you're much busier 2L and just don't care 3L. As a result, the very top of the class tends to pull away more from the pack while top 25% and below tends to compress.

Very few people are jumping .1 from 1L to graduation let alone .18 just to stay at median.

Makes sense, and I guess the top of the curve would become distorted after OCI and 2L once most people know where they are going. Good explanation, thanks.

Also, I realize in the context it probably seemed like I was responding to your anon use, but I suspected it was because you don't want people to know where you went at your firm.


But for the rest of you serial killers...

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense, and I guess the top of the curve would become distorted after OCI and 2L once most people know where they are going. Good explanation, thanks.

What makes it hard to judge is, its the median and not the mean and you get much much better at law school as you go. So even most of the people pulling Cs during 1L are reliably pulling B/B+s later on. At the same time, people pulling B+/A-s aren't suddenly reliably pulling As. So you just condense to hell across the whole curve...that's why they report the GPA to three digits. Then there are the freaks who can pull flat As the whole time.

I pulled one semester at a flat A and I have no idea how the hell I did it and never came close again.

[Anonymous User]

Have any of the journals/law review started contacting students yet? With acceptances or rejections?

I've heard back from the Journal of Law Reform and Private Equity. those were the only secondaries I applied to so I don't know about the others.

On another note, can we stop debating what median is? we have significant amounts of data on gpa from employers coming to oci. I don't fully understand what difference where 3.22 ranks makes for OCI when we have the other information.

[Anonymous User]

When you say "heard back" from two secondaries (Law Reform and PEVC?) - does that mean you received acceptances? or form letters? I received an email from a secondary indicating that I was going to hear, but then heard nothing.

[Anonymous User]

When you say "heard back" from two secondaries (Law Reform and PEVC?) - does that mean you received acceptances? or form letters? I received an email from a secondary indicating that I was going to hear, but then heard nothing.

I mean I was accepted. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I just figured they would let everyone know at the same time.

[Anonymous User]

A 3.4 median for 1L means that the majority of the class had over a B+ average. Looking at the grades distributions Michigan provides, that is statistically impossible. However if medians go like this:

1L 3.25
2L 3.5
3L 3.5

then the graduating GPA for someone at median is a 3.4. Which is what Dean Baum's letter says.

[blackhawkfan]

hey guys, let's give this bidlist thing a go. 3.59 and gunning chicago. let me know what you think:

katten Muchin Rosenman
K and L Gates
Jones Day
DLA Piper
Mayer Brown
Winston & Strawn
Schiff Hardin
chapmann and cutler
Jenner Block
Latham
Kirkland and Ellis
Sidley Austin
skaaden arps
Mcdermott Will & Emery
goldberg kohn
reed smith
Ropes and Gray
vedder price
edwards wildman palmer
edelson mcguire
baker and mckenzie
perkins coie
debevoise and plimpton (new York)
Dykema
Milbank tweed Hadley and Mcoy (New York)
White and Case (New York)
Gibson Dunn (New York)
Barrack Ferrezano
paul weiss (New York)
faegre Baker Daniels

edit: meant to anon but never posted before so I don't really think it matters.

[UnamSanctam]

You're better off knocking out those NYC bids with low interview rates (e.g. Paul Weiss) and putting a secondary market around Chicago there, provided you have the ties. You're not getting those bids and clearly you want to be around Chicago. If you're deadset on going to a big market like NYC if you don't get Chicago, then you either need to put the ones with low interview rates near the top, or you need to replace them with firms that interview as close to 100% of bids as you can.

[blackhawkfan]

You're better off knocking out those NYC bids with low interview rates (e.g. Paul Weiss) and putting a secondary market around Chicago there, provided you have the ties. You're not getting those bids and clearly you want to be around Chicago. If you're deadset on going to a big market like NYC if you don't get Chicago, then you either need to put the ones with low interview rates near the top, or you need to replace them with firms that interview as close to 100% of bids as you can.

no ties to any secondary, grew up in chicago, went to school in Illinois, interned every summer in Chicago, and worked in Chicago. honestly, I just really want to be in Chicago but can't come up with thirty Chicago firms to bid. Thus, just threw some easy to get interviews with New York on to round out the bid list. OCP told me to put Paul Weiss on, I hadn't checked their bid to interview ration. All the other New York Firms had fairly high bid to interview ratios I think. Or am I dreaming by bidding them after 20?

[oblig.lawl.ref]

A 3.4 median for 1L means that the majority of the class had over a B+ average. Looking at the grades distributions Michigan provides, that is statistically impossible.

On another note, can we stop debating what median is? we have significant amounts of data on gpa from employers coming to oci. I don't fully understand what difference where 3.22 ranks makes for OCI when we have the other information.

I just have a hard time believing that 3.4 is median with some employers dipping down to closer to 3.0 and not just once or twice. Isn't 3.4 generally the cut-off for cum laude or something? Anyways, as noted before we can just base it off the provided gpa information.