NALP Perspectives on Fall 2012 Recruiting Forum

[rad lulz]

Interesting, anecdotally it seemed much better this year than last year here.

Atlanta was a bloodbath this year

multiple HLSers struck out in Atlanta this year, with ties

I am totally unsurprised

[AllTheLawz]

Interesting, anecdotally it seemed much better this year than last year here.

Atlanta was a bloodbath this year

multiple HLSers struck out in Atlanta this year, with ties

I am totally unsurprised

Yeah ATL is tough. From my experience, grades weren't important from HLS but there was a combination of need to sell them on you actually wanting to be in ATL, great interview skills, and general luck. Had some options in ATL but I ended up doing better in DC (supposedly super competitive) and I still dont think I know anyone who even got a callback for K&S.

[NYstate]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0113001326

Law.com brief article for anyone who doesn't want to read the whole thing.

Everyone on this site should read this report. An excerpt from the report Rad posted, which I hope isn't too much for copyright purposes:

There were variations by region and
by city, but overall law firms continued to
exhibit caution in recruiting new associates.
Over the last three years law firms have certainly
increased their entry-level hiring activity
compared with the crash in entry-level hiring
reflected by the data from 2008 and 2009.
Rather than exhibiting the slow and steady
recovery that might be hoped for, however,
some firms seemed to put the brakes on in
2012, and both the median and average number
of offers made to 2Ls (members of the Class
of 2014) for summer associate positions in
2013 fell, as did the percent of interviews resulting
in offers, after two years of gains that
followed 2009 nadirs.
Law firms continue to bring in small summer
classes, with median and average class size
barely increasing from recession-era lows. Offer
rates coming out of summer programs remained
high, but fell by more than a point
from the previous summer, and, perhaps not
surprisingly, acceptance rates for those offers
set another record for an historic high.

For the fourth year in a row, few firms ventured back
into the 3L market, and thus, students with
offers from their summer program found few
competing offers on the table.

(~sunynp)

[somewhatwayward]

While not good news for the c/o 2014, it is nice to have some data to back the anecdotal sense I was getting that this year was less good than last year. I'd like to see a breakdown of how HYS v. T14 v. T1 v. T2 v. T3 v. T4 are doing rather than things like 1/3 of schools record interviews on video (if not for practice interviews, WTF?). My sense is that while c/o 2014 was worse up and down the ranks, generally big law hiring has rebounded significantly (not all the way) at T14 schools as compared to the 2009 nadir but that hiring at non-T14 schools, especially lower T1 and below, continues to look more like the nadir. This is my anecdotal impression based on the fact that several firms in NYC that pre-2009 used to take an SA or two from Cardozo, Brooklyn, St. John's, Rutgers, etc are no longer take any people from those schools....or maybe one total from all of them. Midlevel associates from a couple firms have also commented on this to me...how there used to be more T2/T3 students at CB lunches...one even said flat out to me that it was a shame that her firm no longer hired anyone from these schools (a little awkward since it was at a table of CLS/NYU kids; CLS/NYU accounted for 50% of the SA class).

Anyway, as I said, this is my anecdotal impression so some data would be cool. Even though I don't know that cold hard facts about this phenomenon would deter starry-eyes 0Ls since I see so many of them talking seriously about getting big law out of Cardozo, I'd like to be able to point to some recent data about the semi-recovery in the T14 in order to encourage them to retake or a least hold out for more money from schools that don't give them a realistic shot at paying their debt off.

[keg411]

The "ripple" from deferrals was back in the SA classes in 2008/2009/2010 and should've been done by 2011. I thought SA's in 2012 were going to be the "new normal", but looks like the SA 2013 classes are taking a step back.

I think he's referring to 2011 grads, not c/o 2011 SAs

That makes more sense... but weren't the 2011 grads the ones that didn't get SA's at all? Like significantly worse than 2012/2013/2014. The deferred classes were 2009/2010 (although I guess some firms still have deferrals). That was the absolute bottom and even though this past year wasn't good (especially in the secondary markets), I don't think we're at that point again.

[Sheffield]

One question came up recently regarded cold-offers — anyone here have an opinion on this? Are they rare (if so, why) are they beneficial?

[AllTheLawz]

The "ripple" from deferrals was back in the SA classes in 2008/2009/2010 and should've been done by 2011. I thought SA's in 2012 were going to be the "new normal", but looks like the SA 2013 classes are taking a step back.

I think he's referring to 2011 grads, not c/o 2011 SAs

That makes more sense... but weren't the 2011 grads the ones that didn't get SA's at all? Like significantly worse than 2012/2013/2014. The deferred classes were 2009/2010 (although I guess some firms still have deferrals). That was the absolute bottom and even though this past year wasn't good (especially in the secondary markets), I don't think we're at that point again.

Apparently it happened at different times depending on how they deferred and different firms adjusted differently. I'm not blindly coming up with this, I was actually told this is part of the reason by a partner (though who knows how much the average partner knows). Here are a few examples I remembered (look at the trends in "entry-level" compared to summer associates) numbers:

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... skadden%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... goodwin%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... 22ropes%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... %22kaye%22}


From what I was told during OCI, a number of firms are still adjusting and there is a lot of uncertainty affecting recruitment.

[keg411]

The "ripple" from deferrals was back in the SA classes in 2008/2009/2010 and should've been done by 2011. I thought SA's in 2012 were going to be the "new normal", but looks like the SA 2013 classes are taking a step back.

I think he's referring to 2011 grads, not c/o 2011 SAs

That makes more sense... but weren't the 2011 grads the ones that didn't get SA's at all? Like significantly worse than 2012/2013/2014. The deferred classes were 2009/2010 (although I guess some firms still have deferrals). That was the absolute bottom and even though this past year wasn't good (especially in the secondary markets), I don't think we're at that point again.

Apparently it happened at different times depending on how they deferred and different firms adjusted differently. I'm not blindly coming up with this, I was actually told this is part of the reason by a partner (though who knows how much the average partner knows). Here are a few examples I remembered (look at the trends in "entry-level" compared to summer associates) numbers:

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... skadden%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... goodwin%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... 22ropes%22}

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_p ... %22kaye%22}


From what I was told during OCI, a number of firms are still adjusting and there is a lot of uncertainty affecting recruitment.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that one of those firms no longer has any deferred associates. If you want more information PM me.

[09042014]

One question came up recently regarded cold-offers — anyone here have an opinion on this? Are they rare (if so, why) are they beneficial?

Well there is only 4.7% difference between offers given and offers accepted. So the number of people who turn down their offer or get cold offered is 4.7% COMBINED. So cold offers cannot be that common.

[JamMasterJ]

This is surprising - Career Services said our overall %age and gpa breakdowns were better at EIW this year than last. Is that just an NYC thing?

[hephaestus]

This is surprising - Career Services said our overall %age and gpa breakdowns were better at EIW this year than last. Is that just an NYC thing?

Career services at Cornell told us the same thing, by a significant margin. You're right though, it may be NYC specific.

[SportsFan]

This is surprising - Career Services said our overall %age and gpa breakdowns were better at EIW this year than last. Is that just an NYC thing?

Career services at Cornell told us the same thing, by a significant margin. You're right though, it may be NYC specific.

Just from all the reading I've done on here, it seems like NYC may have had some improvement, but it was offset by some secondary markets contracting (Philly and Atlanta have been mentioned here, I'm sure there are others too). I think the moral of the story is the same as it has been: Bid NYC!

[Robespierre]

The report indicates that the number of SA jobs being offered to 2Ls in the Class of 2014 declined. But could it be that this is offset by the fact that there were fewer 2Ls chasing the offers? I mean, the class of 2014 nationwide was smaller than the class of 2013 by 7.2%. http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ummary.asp And some leading schools have classes of 2014 that are 10% or more smaller than the class of 2013. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/re ... s-Tracker/ Examples are Berk, Duke, Emory, WUSTL.

Obviously I'm looking hard for a silver lining.

[09042014]

The report indicates that the number of SA jobs being offered to 2Ls in the Class of 2014 declined. But could it be that this is offset by the fact that there were fewer 2Ls chasing the offers? I mean, the class of 2014 nationwide was smaller than the class of 2013 by 7.2%. http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ummary.asp And some leading schools have classes of 2014 that are 10% or more smaller than the class of 2013. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/re ... s-Tracker/ Examples are Berk, Duke, Emory, WUSTL.

Obviously I'm looking hard for a silver lining.

Shouldn't really make a difference. They'd just dip lower in classes.

[bowser]

This is surprising - Career Services said our overall %age and gpa breakdowns were better at EIW this year than last. Is that just an NYC thing?

Career services at Cornell told us the same thing, by a significant margin. You're right though, it may be NYC specific.

Are you sure they weren't talking about EIW from 2011? No official info from OCS but here at CLS consensus is this past EIP was worse than 2011, and a few people have said by a significant margin.

[hephaestus]

This is surprising - Career Services said our overall %age and gpa breakdowns were better at EIW this year than last. Is that just an NYC thing?

Career services at Cornell told us the same thing, by a significant margin. You're right though, it may be NYC specific.

Are you sure they weren't talking about EIW from 2011? No official info from OCS but here at CLS consensus is this past EIP was worse than 2011, and a few people have said by a significant margin.

Yeah that could definitely have been it. It's also hard to tell without any hard data.

[Sheffield]

One question came up recently regarded cold-offers — anyone here have an opinion on this? Are they rare (if so, why) are they beneficial?

. . . .cold offers cannot be that common.

Perhaps, but the gist of the question is how helpful is a cold-offer? A non-offer is obviously devastating and while a cold-offer is disappointing it would seem that a cold-offer would keep you in the game with recruiters. Just wondering if anyone here had an experience dealing with a cold-offer, or knows someone who did or knows something about cold-offers.

[nmcdgt]

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/02/summer-a ... c-in-2012/

Confirms what I've heard around my school, which is that hiring took a step back for c/o 2014 from c/o 2013. I don't really understand what law firms are up to; apparently this structural argument may have some merit.

A lot of firms are still dealing with the ripple effect of absorbing deferrals. Some firms took in 40 entry levels in 2010, 80 in 2011 (deferrals) and then back to 40 in 2012. If they want to avoid significant layoffs they have to wait for 2011 to filter out.

Then again, Southern and Midwestern firms just straight up no-offered, so it doesn't seem like we're seeing a ripple there.

Also, 2013 first years won't really be doing the same shit as 2011 third years, so it makes me question somewhat how much the above is really true.

Also, some of those deferrals never started to begin with.

I don't think this is just a ripple.

Any idea how the offer rates (to 2Ls post-summer for permanent employment) in Atlanta generally were last year?

[Anonymous User]

Any idea how the offer rates (to 2Ls post-summer for permanent employment) in Atlanta generally were last year?

100% for full-time offers at A&B, not sure about other places. Pretty sure I've seen worrisome things about 66ish% offer rates for another firm's ATL office (I think it was Greenberg but can't remember) around TLS.

[stratocophic]

One question came up recently regarded cold-offers — anyone here have an opinion on this? Are they rare (if so, why) are they beneficial?

. . . .cold offers cannot be that common.

Perhaps, but the gist of the question is how helpful is a cold-offer? A non-offer is obviously devastating and while a cold-offer is disappointing it would seem that a cold-offer would keep you in the game with recruiters. Just wondering if anyone here had an experience dealing with a cold-offer, or knows someone who did or knows something about cold-offers.

If 3L recruiting yielded a total of 82 offers, how helpful can it possibly be? Either it's not helpful because it's next to meaningless or because there aren't any 3L jobs - does it matter all that much which one it is?

[rad lulz]

One question came up recently regarded cold-offers — anyone here have an opinion on this? Are they rare (if so, why) are they beneficial?

. . . .cold offers cannot be that common.

Perhaps, but the gist of the question is how helpful is a cold-offer? A non-offer is obviously devastating and while a cold-offer is disappointing it would seem that a cold-offer would keep you in the game with recruiters. Just wondering if anyone here had an experience dealing with a cold-offer, or knows someone who did or knows something about cold-offers.

If 3L recruiting yielded a total of 82 offers, how helpful can it possibly be? Either it's not helpful because it's next to meaningless or because there aren't any 3L jobs - does it matter all that much which one it is?

I know a guy with one. I get the sense that it's not that helpful (though it theoretically should be). 3L market is utter trash.

[Sheffield]

If 3L recruiting yielded a total of 82 offers, how helpful can it possibly be? Either it's not helpful because it's next to meaningless or because there aren't any 3L jobs - does it matter all that much which one it is?

Just speculating. Take someone who had 2 or more offers and choose a firm that ended with a no-offer. I would think reaching out to a firm that once made an offer might work if you already had an offer in your pocket (be it a cold-offer). Perhaps a cold-offer lets you treat your situation as a lateral play. Do not know, that is why I was asking.

[NYstate]

If 3L recruiting yielded a total of 82 offers, how helpful can it possibly be? Either it's not helpful because it's next to meaningless or because there aren't any 3L jobs - does it matter all that much which one it is?

Just speculating. Take someone who had 2 or more offers and choose a firm that ended with a no-offer. I would think reaching out to a firm that once made an offer might work if you already had an offer in your pocket (be it a cold-offer). Perhaps a cold-offer lets you treat your situation as a lateral play. Do not know, that is why I was asking.

The point is that the firm you turned down is not hiring 3Ls. They filled their class from their own SAs. Realistically no one should count on a 3L job. Those numbers are shocking.

[rad lulz]

If 3L recruiting yielded a total of 82 offers, how helpful can it possibly be? Either it's not helpful because it's next to meaningless or because there aren't any 3L jobs - does it matter all that much which one it is?

Just speculating. Take someone who had 2 or more offers and choose a firm that ended with a no-offer. I would think reaching out to a firm that once made an offer might work if you already had an offer in your pocket (be it a cold-offer). Perhaps a cold-offer lets you treat your situation as a lateral play. Do not know, that is why I was asking.

TLS seems to be obsessed with asking about cold offers. I have no idea why. But I'll humor you.

I bet cold offers were more helpful back in 2007 when 3L OCI wasn't a joke. But now? 82 fall offers at NALP firms bro. That's shit. Here's a protip. 3L hiring is largely based on need. When you're a 2L, they want bodies. If you go back to a firm that had given you an offer previously, but there's no need, your cold-offer isn't gonna do jack shit. And ITE, there's minimal need. I'm sure it's marginally more helpful than getting no-offered, but that's not saying much.

[Sheffield]

I believe what you are saying about cold-offers. However, I saw where the firm I turned down (V100) had +50 laterals last year. So, maybe a cold-offer could be spun into a lateral easier than spinning a no-offer into a lateral. Hopefully, I will never have to find out.