Spoke with CSOs at two different T14 (one at a T6) Forum

[somewhatwayward]

Thanks for this OP, it does make me feel a little bit better actually. Close to striking out myself.

The good news is that if the economy does pick up between now and next year and there is more business for law firms, there may be more robust 3L hiring, so keep your grades up and try to beef up that resume as much as possible. Plus you'll need awesome grades and journal accolades and e-board position to apply for all the clerkshipz if 3L hiring doesn't pan out.

[plenipotentiary]

I'm a little bit skeptical. Why would you have spoken to CSOs at two different schools? Why would a CSO at a school you don't attend talk to you?

[anon168]

I'm a little bit skeptical. Why would you have spoken to CSOs at two different schools? Why would a CSO at a school you don't attend talk to you?

Uh, because I am part of the hiring committee at my firm?

[otnemem]

Did you get the impression that hiring is merely worse than it was for the past 2 years (c/o '12 and '13), or that things are actually worse than the worst year ever; c/o 2011.

[thelawyler]

I'm a little bit skeptical. Why would you have spoken to CSOs at two different schools? Why would a CSO at a school you don't attend talk to you?

Uh, because I am part of the hiring committee at my firm?

owned.

[plenipotentiary]

I'm a little bit skeptical. Why would you have spoken to CSOs at two different schools? Why would a CSO at a school you don't attend talk to you?

Uh, because I am part of the hiring committee at my firm?

Oh. Good answer!

[Anonymous User]

Interesting... I outperformed my grades by a lot so I thought the market was up. The firm I accepted with stated that they were cutting their classes back by a fair amount but I assumed it was just because they were clearly over hiring by a lot these last couple of years. Now I guess I should get my academic house in order for fear of no offers (although.. they definitely didn't hire me for my law school grades)

[IAFG]

So what does all this mean for the firms that are actively hiring 3Ls? Assuming that vast swaths of their SA classes did not decline their offers, which seems unlikely in this economy, why are they hiring? I am curious specifically about Cravath/Skadden/W&C...is work picking back up for them? I know these firms have lots of people clerking, but most of those people will be coming back. Plus, the people who are finishing up their clerkships now and next fall will be coming back, so why hire 3Ls?

It could mean they're busier than they predicted when they did hiring. It could mean they lose their summers to other firms or PI or clerkships. Maybe their clerks don't consistently come back (again, head out instead to other firms or PI). At any rate, it's not my impression these firms are taking a large number of people. I would guess though that if you added together every 3L opening, you'd have a very underwhelming number.

I don't know about W&C, but someone I talked to had CBs with Cravath and Skadden, and the recruiting people at both told him that they are looking to take on a decent number of people (he said one told him they were "actively hiring" but I can't remember which). He didn't know how many that means, but it sounds to me like more than a couple, maybe ten? It is true that if each were taking on ten more, it is only twenty more people, but if business was down for them, you'd think they'd be conservative and not out looking for more people.

Fair enough but 1) it doesn't say much about the market in general and 2) the decision to hire up may well be a bad one (so I wouldn't assume firms doing this are healthier or busier than their peers that aren't hiring up) 3) it may just mean they were a little conservative hiring 2Ls.

[rayiner]

They say law firms are starting to realize that the super-leveraged megafirm model only works when clients aren't watching the bills closely and pitching fits about having to pay for the time of junior associates who "don't know what they're doing." All of a sudden, up and out models aren't looking so profitable since the firms can't get away with charging stupid amounts of money for 1st and 2nd year time for tasks contract attorneys could be doing. Of course partners still need associates to work for them, but the focus seems to shifting more towards having a stable of well-trained midlevels, instead of having hoards of increasingly-unbillable-and-therefore-useless juniors.

Your point is true, but it's always been true. Firms have always wanted most of their associates to be well-trained midlevels. It's not like they were pushing out 3rd years during the boom to replace them with 1st years. They had huge summer classes because people had other opportunities and left. The reason hiring is don so much isn't that firms finally decided they wanted more midlevels, it's that those midlevels don't have a lot of other opportunities on the lateral or in-house market and are sticking around.

[Anonymous User]

almost struck out myself and know of at least 3 others at my t6 who have. sure it's anecdotal but still scary.

[redbullvodka]

*1L alert*

I don't understand why we don't just say which t6. 5 anecdotes from Chicago is like 2.5% of the class (sizeable I think). 5 anecdotes from NYU is 1%. One is, I think, more helpful than the other. Everyone's already anonymous, and there isn't any more information than "i'm close/almost/have struck out"...I don't think that's enough information that specifying which t6 would suddenly out somebody.

My two cents, bring the 2L/3L rage as you wish.

[EvilClinton]

A couple weeks ago I thought the job market was shit and that about 25-35% of my friends had struck out. However, offers and late cbs have trickled down and (as of today) I only know one person who went for big law and struck out. I know about 15-20 people that accepted big law offers.

I know that is very anecdotal but the job market at my T14 seems to be good.

[anon168]

*1L alert*

I don't understand why we don't just say which t6. 5 anecdotes from Chicago is like 2.5% of the class (sizeable I think). 5 anecdotes from NYU is 1%. One is, I think, more helpful than the other. Everyone's already anonymous, and there isn't any more information than "i'm close/almost/have struck out"...I don't think that's enough information that specifying which t6 would suddenly out somebody.

My two cents, bring the 2L/3L rage as you wish.

My advice to you is not to worry about it. As a 1L this is totally out of your control.

Right now you should focus on your grades and nothing else.

[Anonymous User]

The NYC big law firm I summered with is aiming for almost 50% less SAs for next summer than my class had.

[manofjustice]

Both said that law firm hiring was drastically down this year and that they have not seen it this bad in a long while. One said the market was "devastatingly bad" and the other said it was a "gruesome market".

Maybe just repeating what's obvious. But I thought I'd just throw it out there in case it's any consolation for those still looking.

One thing I should add. One CSO said she got the sentiment that firms overhired this year, which could mean lower offer rates or less hiring next year.

Good luck to everyone out there.

2011 numbers were the worst. So were the CSOs saying that 2012 will be worse yet? Does that mesh with the experience of your firm?

[anon168]

Both said that law firm hiring was drastically down this year and that they have not seen it this bad in a long while. One said the market was "devastatingly bad" and the other said it was a "gruesome market".

Maybe just repeating what's obvious. But I thought I'd just throw it out there in case it's any consolation for those still looking.

One thing I should add. One CSO said she got the sentiment that firms overhired this year, which could mean lower offer rates or less hiring next year.

Good luck to everyone out there.

2011 numbers were the worst. So were the CSOs saying that 2012 will be worse yet? Does that mesh with the experience of your firm?

That's the impression that I got, although I have no idea what the numbers were for my firm in 2011 as I wasn't here then.

Again, this is just two data points and like alot of folks have point out it's pretty much just anecdotal. And you have to consider the audience (read: prospective employer) that the CSO was speaking to.

[manofjustice]

Both said that law firm hiring was drastically down this year and that they have not seen it this bad in a long while. One said the market was "devastatingly bad" and the other said it was a "gruesome market".

Maybe just repeating what's obvious. But I thought I'd just throw it out there in case it's any consolation for those still looking.

One thing I should add. One CSO said she got the sentiment that firms overhired this year, which could mean lower offer rates or less hiring next year.

Good luck to everyone out there.

2011 numbers were the worst. So were the CSOs saying that 2012 will be worse yet? Does that mesh with the experience of your firm?

That's the impression that I got, although I have no idea what the numbers were for my firm in 2011 as I wasn't here then.

Again, this is just two data points and like alot of folks have point out it's pretty much just anecdotal. And you have to consider the audience (read: prospective employer) that the CSO was speaking to.

Well, makes us feel a bit better.

Just wondering...why would a CSO want to say the market is gruesome to a prospective employer? Make the employer feel like it could have its pick?

I have one anecdote. A guy screams "god fuckin dammit" from the conference room down the hall while I was studying contracts...I assumed it was because he got no-offered. It's like a siege mentality. Any sound, any hint, and we assume the worst. But the worst seems the new normal.

[Anonymous User]

They say law firms are starting to realize that the super-leveraged megafirm model only works when clients aren't watching the bills closely and pitching fits about having to pay for the time of junior associates who "don't know what they're doing." All of a sudden, up and out models aren't looking so profitable since the firms can't get away with charging stupid amounts of money for 1st and 2nd year time for tasks contract attorneys could be doing. Of course partners still need associates to work for them, but the focus seems to shifting more towards having a stable of well-trained midlevels, instead of having hoards of increasingly-unbillable-and-therefore-useless juniors.

Your point is true, but it's always been true. Firms have always wanted most of their associates to be well-trained midlevels. It's not like they were pushing out 3rd years during the boom to replace them with 1st years. They had huge summer classes because people had other opportunities and left. The reason hiring is don so much isn't that firms finally decided they wanted more midlevels, it's that those midlevels don't have a lot of other opportunities on the lateral or in-house market and are sticking around.

I don't know from first hand experience, but I've always heard that at many places people's third or fourth year reviews essentially put them on notice that they're dead men walking and that they should start looking elsewhere. Partners will stop staffing you on their matters and eventually you'll be unable to meet your bilalbles and you'll just be thrown overboard if you don't jump ship on your own. I was under the impression that a significant portion of lateral attrition is initiated this way. I would love to hear that firms welcome anyone who likes fat paychecks to stick around for as long as they please, but I've never heard that to be case in BigLaw.

[anon168]

Both said that law firm hiring was drastically down this year and that they have not seen it this bad in a long while. One said the market was "devastatingly bad" and the other said it was a "gruesome market".

Maybe just repeating what's obvious. But I thought I'd just throw it out there in case it's any consolation for those still looking.

One thing I should add. One CSO said she got the sentiment that firms overhired this year, which could mean lower offer rates or less hiring next year.

Good luck to everyone out there.

2011 numbers were the worst. So were the CSOs saying that 2012 will be worse yet? Does that mesh with the experience of your firm?

That's the impression that I got, although I have no idea what the numbers were for my firm in 2011 as I wasn't here then.

Again, this is just two data points and like alot of folks have point out it's pretty much just anecdotal. And you have to consider the audience (read: prospective employer) that the CSO was speaking to.

Well, makes us feel a bit better.

Just wondering...why would a CSO want to say the market is gruesome to a prospective employer? Make the employer feel like it could have its pick?

I have one anecdote. A guy screams "god fuckin dammit" from the conference room down the hall while I was studying contracts...I assumed it was because he got no-offered. It's like a siege mentality. Any sound, any hint, and we assume the worst. But the worst seems the new normal.

Reverse (or perverse?) psychology perhaps? CSOs are marketing people first and foremost when it comes to relating with the prospective employers. By letting employers know that the market is trending down or stagnating, it's one more talking point as to why the employer needs to really focus on her school's students (as opposed to another peer school's) because they just can't take a risk by playing the field. Again, this comment was prefaced by the general gibberish of how the law school this year has done X, Y, Z and A and B and C to prepare their students for summer employment, permanent employment in general, and overall life qualities.

I posted this because of all the angst I see on this board, and wanted to let people know that maybe some of them are struggling not because of so much what they are doing, or not doing, but how the market in general is reacting to everyone.

[manofjustice]

Thanks. We appreciate you coming on here.

What do CSOs do, really? Do they market individual students to you? Or is it all just "come to OCI...we're a great school" bs?

[anon168]

Thanks. We appreciate you coming on here.

What do CSOs do, really? Do they market individual students to you? Or is it all just "come to OCI...we're a great school" bs?

The latter.

[Anonymous User]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

[KidStuddi]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

Information like this seems fairly useless without any indication as to how you and your peers did your 1L year.

[Anonymous User]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

Information like this seems fairly useless without any indication as to how you and your peers did your 1L year.

Fair enough, this is same anon. I am slightly below median grades. One of the strikeouts is above median but terrible at interviewing and the other two are bottom 25% of class.

[anon168]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

Information like this seems fairly useless without any indication as to how you and your peers did your 1L year.

No, it's not.

The dynamics for 1L and 2L hiring are dramatically different even if market conditions (and all other variables) are identical.