Worst Firms to Work For? Forum

[PNGJW]

. . . The partner was . . . wearing cargo shorts.

You serious bro? IMO this is totally credited - I'd be unable to turn down an offer.

[L’Étranger]

Worst firm ITE: Any firm that routinely no-offers summers. Any firm that pays well below market.

I think there is likely a fair mix of great and not great people at every firm.

[PDaddy]

BYOB! That doesn't necessarily mean hanging up a shingle right out of law school, but it does mean having a solid, long-term plan for acheiving your freedom. Free enterprise is the key to wealth and happiness for most. Being a partner in an established firm might pay decent money and provide lots of perks, but in the end most partners are less respected - and far less wealthy - than a barely educated rap star who starts his own water company.

I'm not advocating that everyone becomes a rap star, but I believe that everyone should follow the rules established by J. Paul Getty:

1) Own a business (a vertically and horizontally integrated one)
2) Have a product or service that is in demand (and projected to remain so)
3) Guarantee that product or service (I call it Men's Warehouse Theory)
4) Out-perform the competition (like Nike!)
5) Create one's success by making others successful (ex. become a billionaire by creating multimillionaires, ala Bill Gates!)

Any firm that obstructs or impedes you from ultimately doing that is a bad one.

[071816]

BYOB! That doesn't necessarily mean hanging up a shingle right out of law school, but it does mean having a solid, long-term plan for acheiving your freedom. Free enterprise is the key to wealth and happiness for most. Being a partner in an established firm might pay decent money and provide lots of perks, but in the end most partners are less respected - and far less wealthy - than a barely educated rap star who starts his own water company.

I'm not advocating that everyone becomes a rap star, but I believe that everyone should follow the rules established by J. Paul Getty:

1) Own a business (a vertically and horizontally integrated one)
2) Have a product or service that is in demand (and projected to remain so)
3) Guarantee that product or service (I call it Men's Warehouse Theory)
4) Out-perform the competition (like Nike!)
5) Create one's success by making others successful (ex. become a billionaire by creating multimillionaires, ala Bill Gates!)

Any firm that obstructs or impedes you from ultimately doing that is a bad one.

I can never tell if your posts are serious.

[Bildungsroman]

BYOB! That doesn't necessarily mean hanging up a shingle right out of law school, but it does mean having a solid, long-term plan for acheiving your freedom. Free enterprise is the key to wealth and happiness for most. Being a partner in an established firm might pay decent money and provide lots of perks, but in the end most partners are less respected - and far less wealthy - than a barely educated rap star who starts his own water company.

I'm not advocating that everyone becomes a rap star, but I believe that everyone should follow the rules established by J. Paul Getty:

1) Own a business (a vertically and horizontally integrated one)
2) Have a product or service that is in demand (and projected to remain so)
3) Guarantee that product or service (I call it Men's Warehouse Theory)
4) Out-perform the competition (like Nike!)
5) Create one's success by making others successful (ex. become a billionaire by creating multimillionaires, ala Bill Gates!)

Any firm that obstructs or impedes you from ultimately doing that is a bad one.

What the flying fuck did I just read?

Also, PDaddy, I've never been clear on this: are you actually a law student right now?

[071816]

weird shit

What the flying fuck did I just read?

Also, PDaddy, I've never been clear on this: are you actually a law student right now?

This is how I picture him:

[Anonymous User]

You remember that whole Quinn debacle re: the hiking trip? They not only made the fallen SA's pay for the helicopter ride, they also made them pay for the shipping of the packs they left behind, meaning they paid for 2 helicopter rides.

No. Really. ATL missed the best part of the story.

I have direct knowledge of what happend on the Quinn hike, and the above is not true.

Yeah, this is definitely not true. Really can't understand why Quinn gets such a hard rap on these boards, especially from people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. As to the commenter above about the asshole:normal ratio, I worked in the NY office and found all of the partners and associates I worked with to be genuinely nice people who thoroughly enjoy their jobs. That said, I can't deny that people work pretty substantial hours and people do look tired a lot.

My friend's bank account begs to differ. Also, while the hike was voluntary, there was the general feeling that not going on it meant no offer, so the SA's were pressured into going. They definitely had to pay for the first heli, I may be mistaken in that they had to pay for the bag's shipping back to Quinn, but I'm not 100% sure if it was shipped via Heli from the remote location.

The person that demanded they pay was from the LA office.

[somewhatwayward]

You remember that whole Quinn debacle re: the hiking trip? They not only made the fallen SA's pay for the helicopter ride, they also made them pay for the shipping of the packs they left behind, meaning they paid for 2 helicopter rides.

No. Really. ATL missed the best part of the story.

I have direct knowledge of what happend on the Quinn hike, and the above is not true.

Yeah, this is definitely not true. Really can't understand why Quinn gets such a hard rap on these boards, especially from people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. As to the commenter above about the asshole:normal ratio, I worked in the NY office and found all of the partners and associates I worked with to be genuinely nice people who thoroughly enjoy their jobs. That said, I can't deny that people work pretty substantial hours and people do look tired a lot.

My friend's bank account begs to differ. Also, while the hike was voluntary, there was the general feeling that not going on it meant no offer, so the SA's were pressured into going. They definitely had to pay for the first heli, I may be mistaken in that they had to pay for the bag's shipping back to Quinn, but I'm not 100% sure if it was shipped via Heli from the remote location.

The person that demanded they pay was from the LA office.

Making them pay is a low blow but it is pretty pathetic to not be able to complete a hike as a young healthy adult, especially since the vast majority of people involved did, and there were doubtlessly some pretty out-of-shape people who managed. Was asthma or some other medical problem involved? If so, then making them pay would really be low...

[fatduck]

Making them pay is a low blow but it is pretty pathetic to not be able to complete a hike as a young healthy adult, especially since the vast majority of people involved did, and there were doubtlessly some pretty out-of-shape people who managed. Was asthma or some other medical problem involved? If so, then making them pay would really be low...

mt st helens isn't everest, but it's not a particular easy hike. anyway, if you read the story, they didn't fall out on the way to the top. they got lost (and apparently abandoned) on the slide down.

[somewhatwayward]

Making them pay is a low blow but it is pretty pathetic to not be able to complete a hike as a young healthy adult, especially since the vast majority of people involved did, and there were doubtlessly some pretty out-of-shape people who managed. Was asthma or some other medical problem involved? If so, then making them pay would really be low...

mt st helens isn't everest, but it's not a particular easy hike. anyway, if you read the story, they didn't fall out on the way to the top. they got lost (and apparently abandoned) on the slide down.

Oh, okay, my bad

Also, why couldn't their packs have come in the same helicopter?

[Anonymous User]

Weight limit. And reread the ATL article. Was not an easy hike. Some were injured, some were sick.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard Cahill is full of tools and gunners. Not verified, but FWIW they did indeed hire tools and gunners from my school.

Also an associate from my firm who lateraled from Cahill was not too fond of people at Cahill.

I can verify that it's a very difficult firm to work at. Free market firms also tend to attract extreme Type A's and if you don't fall into that category it can be not-fun.

Just summered at Cahill. Had the best summer of my life, loved the whole summer class and everyone I met, from associates to partners. We really bonded as a class. I think people are really chill at Cahill. Very hard workers, but genuinely nice, real, and fun people. Not gospel truth here but I think it's useful to have another perspective.

That said: laterals will always gripe about their former firms. Cahill has a bunch of laterals that love it there but hated it at other firms. You have to seek out the best fit for you.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard Cahill is full of tools and gunners. Not verified, but FWIW they did indeed hire tools and gunners from my school.

Also an associate from my firm who lateraled from Cahill was not too fond of people at Cahill.

I can verify that it's a very difficult firm to work at. Free market firms also tend to attract extreme Type A's and if you don't fall into that category it can be not-fun.

Just summered at Cahill. Had the best summer of my life, loved the whole summer class and everyone I met, from associates to partners. We really bonded as a class. I think people are really chill at Cahill. Very hard workers, but genuinely nice, real, and fun people. Not gospel truth here but I think it's useful to have another perspective.

That said: laterals will always gripe about their former firms. Cahill has a bunch of laterals that love it there but hated it at other firms. You have to seek out the best fit for you.

Person I'm referring to is very much NOT a lateral. Summered at Cahill and "loved" it during the summer. Now, not so much.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard Cahill is full of tools and gunners. Not verified, but FWIW they did indeed hire tools and gunners from my school.

Also an associate from my firm who lateraled from Cahill was not too fond of people at Cahill.

I can verify that it's a very difficult firm to work at. Free market firms also tend to attract extreme Type A's and if you don't fall into that category it can be not-fun.

Just summered at Cahill. Had the best summer of my life, loved the whole summer class and everyone I met, from associates to partners. We really bonded as a class. I think people are really chill at Cahill. Very hard workers, but genuinely nice, real, and fun people. Not gospel truth here but I think it's useful to have another perspective.

That said: laterals will always gripe about their former firms. Cahill has a bunch of laterals that love it there but hated it at other firms. You have to seek out the best fit for you.

Person I'm referring to is very much NOT a lateral. Summered at Cahill and "loved" it during the summer. Now, not so much.

Sorry for the confusion - I was referring to the inside quote (about the lateral). I don't dispute some people don't like it but that's biglaw and the free market system at certain firms, not people, IMO.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard Cahill is full of tools and gunners. Not verified, but FWIW they did indeed hire tools and gunners from my school.

Also an associate from my firm who lateraled from Cahill was not too fond of people at Cahill.

I can verify that it's a very difficult firm to work at. Free market firms also tend to attract extreme Type A's and if you don't fall into that category it can be not-fun.

Just summered at Cahill. Had the best summer of my life, loved the whole summer class and everyone I met, from associates to partners. We really bonded as a class. I think people are really chill at Cahill. Very hard workers, but genuinely nice, real, and fun people. Not gospel truth here but I think it's useful to have another perspective.

That said: laterals will always gripe about their former firms. Cahill has a bunch of laterals that love it there but hated it at other firms. You have to seek out the best fit for you.

Person I'm referring to is very much NOT a lateral. Summered at Cahill and "loved" it during the summer. Now, not so much.

Hours are long at Cahill, especially on the corporate side. But the people are good. Real good. And so has been the bonus pay. There are type-As at Cahill, but not more than elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

Hours are long at Cahill, especially on the corporate side. But the people are good. Real good. And so has been the bonus pay. There are type-As at Cahill, but not more than elsewhere.

Anon you quoted:
I'd agree with that 100%.

[IAFG]

I love when 3Ls defend the honor of their summer firms. I imagine recruiting managers everywhere cackling and shrieking, "yes, dance puppets, dance!"

[clintonius]

Making them pay is a low blow but it is pretty pathetic to not be able to complete a hike as a young healthy adult, especially since the vast majority of people involved did, and there were doubtlessly some pretty out-of-shape people who managed. Was asthma or some other medical problem involved? If so, then making them pay would really be low...

mt st helens isn't everest, but it's not a particular easy hike. anyway, if you read the story, they didn't fall out on the way to the top. they got lost (and apparently abandoned) on the slide down.

Just fyi, you've got your summers confused. St. Helens and the lost hikers was last year; this year they were in Banff, and it was a combination of "winded" hikers and an injury that led to the helicopter trip. Here's the article.

[gyarados]

My friend's bank account begs to differ. Also, while the hike was voluntary, there was the general feeling that not going on it meant no offer, so the SA's were pressured into going. They definitely had to pay for the first heli, I may be mistaken in that they had to pay for the bag's shipping back to Quinn, but I'm not 100% sure if it was shipped via Heli from the remote location.

The person that demanded they pay was from the LA office.

This is patent bullshit. Not only would a firm never live this down, it's a violation of labor law.

As for the question about Quinn people being raging assholes, I did a CB at the NY office, and I really liked the people. That said, I also know some people who lateraled to Quinn and lateraled back out within a year because they couldn't stand the culture. And several of the associates I talked to, while nice, seemed pretty harried. My best estimate of the firm culture is that it's normally chill but very alpha, but when shit hits the fan and people haven't slept in three days, some bad shit can go down.

[IAFG]

This is patent bullshit. Not only would a firm never live this down, it's a violation of labor law.

How is not paying for intern's helicopter rescue for a voluntary outing a violation of any labor law?

[bk1]

I love when 3Ls defend the honor of their summer firms. I imagine recruiting managers everywhere cackling and shrieking, "yes, dance puppets, dance!"

I lol'ed.

[gyarados]

This is patent bullshit. Not only would a firm never live this down, it's a violation of labor law.

How is not paying for intern's helicopter rescue for a voluntary outing a violation of any labor law?

Attendance at a voluntary Christmas party held to be possibly within scope of employment: Chastain v. Litton Sys., Inc., 694 F.2d 957, 962 (4th Cir. 1982).

"Generally, an employer that maintains the discretion to reduce an employee's compensation as a result of the employee's hours or the quality of the employee's work, may not consider the employee to be paid on a salary basis." Martin v. Malcolm Pirnie, Inc., 949 F.2d 611, 615 (2d Cir. 1991).

And this is what I found in five minutes. Pretty sure docking overtime salaried employees' pay for any reason beside non-attendance is never legal.

[IAFG]

This is patent bullshit. Not only would a firm never live this down, it's a violation of labor law.

How is not paying for intern's helicopter rescue for a voluntary outing a violation of any labor law?

Attendance at a voluntary Christmas party held to be possibly within scope of employment: Chastain v. Litton Sys., Inc., 694 F.2d 957, 962 (4th Cir. 1982).

"Generally, an employer that maintains the discretion to reduce an employee's compensation as a result of the employee's hours or the quality of the employee's work, may not consider the employee to be paid on a salary basis." Martin v. Malcolm Pirnie, Inc., 949 F.2d 611, 615 (2d Cir. 1991).

And this is what I found in five minutes. Pretty sure docking overtime salaried employees' pay for any reason beside non-attendance is never legal.

Who said their pay was docked?! The only claim ITT is that the firm didn't cover their rescue. You might want to work on identifying the relevant issue before your SA starts.

[ilovesf]

This is patent bullshit. Not only would a firm never live this down, it's a violation of labor law.

How is not paying for intern's helicopter rescue for a voluntary outing a violation of any labor law?

Attendance at a voluntary Christmas party held to be possibly within scope of employment: Chastain v. Litton Sys., Inc., 694 F.2d 957, 962 (4th Cir. 1982).

"Generally, an employer that maintains the discretion to reduce an employee's compensation as a result of the employee's hours or the quality of the employee's work, may not consider the employee to be paid on a salary basis." Martin v. Malcolm Pirnie, Inc., 949 F.2d 611, 615 (2d Cir. 1991).

And this is what I found in five minutes. Pretty sure docking overtime salaried employees' pay for any reason beside non-attendance is never legal.

Did you really research case law for a post on tls?

[gyarados]

Did you really research case law for a post on tls?

I'm bored. Don't hate.