2012 NU OCI Forum

[rayiner]

Also can someone tell me how to interpret the OCI/GPA data on Symplicity? All of the medians seemed REALLY high.

I've been told a couple of things re GPA #'s:
1) remember that the same high GPA law review kids get called back to a lot of places, but can only accept 1 offer.
2) It's median so roughly half the CB's were below the median.
3) For most firms you can probably subtract .1 from the median for the accepted offer #.

FWIW on the more grade competitve firms I'm focusing on the lower number to see how I might stack up...Alas it still elimiates a few firms (Grippo, Barack, etc.)

I'm not at NU but is this reasoning similar to other schools? Subtracting .1 from the CB for offers seems kind of ludicrous though.

It's ridiculous at UVA or Michigan, where 0.1 separate median from like the top 3%, but on NU's curve 0.1 is very roughly 10% of class rank, and for a lot of firms that can make sense. It's also important to look at the spread between the median and the low.

Say firm X has a median of 3.8 and a low of 3.5. That means you've got a decent shot with 3.7+, and enough of a shot from 3.6+ that it's worth a bid. Below that, it's probably not worth a bid unless you bring something else to the table (e.g. investment banking experience, IP background, etc). These firms are grade-snobby, but will dip down to pick up people they like.

Now say a firm has a median of 3.8 and a low of 3.7. That means you really should have a 3.7+ or else it's not worth a bid. These firms are grade-snobby, and will not dip down to pick up people they like.

[Anonymous User]

Also can someone tell me how to interpret the OCI/GPA data on Symplicity? All of the medians seemed REALLY high.

I've been told a couple of things re GPA #'s:
1) remember that the same high GPA law review kids get called back to a lot of places, but can only accept 1 offer.
2) It's median so roughly half the CB's were below the median.
3) For most firms you can probably subtract .1 from the median for the accepted offer #.

FWIW on the more grade competitve firms I'm focusing on the lower number to see how I might stack up...Alas it still elimiates a few firms (Grippo, Barack, etc.)

I'm not at NU but is this reasoning similar to other schools? Subtracting .1 from the CB for offers seems kind of ludicrous though.

It's ridiculous at UVA or Michigan, where 0.1 separate median from like the top 3%, but on NU's curve 0.1 is very roughly 10% of class rank, and for a lot of firms that can make sense. It's also important to look at the spread between the median and the low.

Say firm X has a median of 3.8 and a low of 3.5. That means you've got a decent shot with 3.7+, and enough of a shot from 3.6+ that it's worth a bid. Below that, it's probably not worth a bid unless you bring something else to the table (e.g. investment banking experience, IP background, etc). These firms are grade-snobby, but will dip down to pick up people they like.

Now say a firm has a median of 3.8 and a low of 3.7. That means you really should have a 3.7+ or else it's not worth a bid. These firms are grade-snobby, and will not dip down to pick up people they like.

Aren't those lows usually reserved for IP/URM/Great work experience or the rare person that seriously clicks with the interviewer?

[homestyle28]

Also can someone tell me how to interpret the OCI/GPA data on Symplicity? All of the medians seemed REALLY high.

I've been told a couple of things re GPA #'s:
1) remember that the same high GPA law review kids get called back to a lot of places, but can only accept 1 offer.
2) It's median so roughly half the CB's were below the median.
3) For most firms you can probably subtract .1 from the median for the accepted offer #.

FWIW on the more grade competitve firms I'm focusing on the lower number to see how I might stack up...Alas it still elimiates a few firms (Grippo, Barack, etc.)

I'm not at NU but is this reasoning similar to other schools? Subtracting .1 from the CB for offers seems kind of ludicrous though.

My guess is that it holds true at less selective firms. If it's true that the LR kids clean up on CBs, and generally take offers at more competitive firms, then the average offer at less selective firms should tick down a bit.

[Anonymous User]

Also can someone tell me how to interpret the OCI/GPA data on Symplicity? All of the medians seemed REALLY high.

I've been told a couple of things re GPA #'s:
1) remember that the same high GPA law review kids get called back to a lot of places, but can only accept 1 offer.
2) It's median so roughly half the CB's were below the median.
3) For most firms you can probably subtract .1 from the median for the accepted offer #.

FWIW on the more grade competitve firms I'm focusing on the lower number to see how I might stack up...Alas it still elimiates a few firms (Grippo, Barack, etc.)

I'm not at NU but is this reasoning similar to other schools? Subtracting .1 from the CB for offers seems kind of ludicrous though.

My guess is that it holds true at less selective firms. If it's true that the LR kids clean up on CBs, and generally take offers at more competitive firms, then the average offer at less selective firms should tick down a bit.

That makes sense. What do you students at NU consider "less selective" firms?

[Anonymous User]

Aren't those lows usually reserved for IP/URM/Great work experience or the rare person that seriously clicks with the interviewer?

To an extent.

First, the magnitude of the IP boost depends on the firm. At S&C/DPW/Cleary, for example, who don't do much if any IP work, the boost might be non-existent. At K&E Chicago, which has a well-established IP practice, supply is pretty well matched to demand so the boost, while it exists, is not enormous. You'll still need 3.6x+, it just makes your chances better at that range. For IP boutiques and firms that have growing IP practices, the boost can be very substantial, especially for firms that hire from the middle of the class.

Second, you have to understand the URM boost is a lot less systematic for law firm hiring than it is for law school admissions. Law schools try to get say 10% of their class to be URMs. Law firms don't come into a school looking to hire any URMs, necessarily. URM applicants that fall within their cut-off are highly likely to convert their screener into a callback, but as far as I can tell firms don't have lower cut-offs for URMs. The corollary to this is that the GPA low for a firm is much more representative of the firm's hiring criteria for non-URMs than the LSAT low for a school is representative of the school's admissions criteria for non-URMs.

Bottom line is that if firm X had a 3.8 callback median and a 3.5 low, that 3.5 might very well have been, in that year, a URM or IP or whatever. But the firm probably called back at least a few people in the 3.6-3.7 range who simply gave killer interviews. The ordinary white guy who gives the best interview in the group of 20 and is within the firm's cut-off is highly likely to get a callback.

[rayiner]

That makes sense. What do you students at NU consider "less selective" firms?

Note, there are two reasons to discount the median GPA by subtracting say 0.1 from it:

1) because it's a median which means half of people who got callbacks are below that median;
2) because firms will lose a lot of people they call back to more desirable firms.

(1) applies to every firm, even the most selective ones.
(2) applies to the firms that aren't the top-choices in any market. The are, by market:
Chicago: Kirkland, Sidley
DC: Covington, Wilmer, Williams & Connolly
NY: CSM/S&C/DPW.

Within each group, these firms lose people to each other, but are similarly selective so that doesn't lower their "offer accepted" GPA below their callback GPA. Less desirable firms in each market lose candidates to these firms, which lowers their "offer accepted" GPA below their callback GPA.

[Anonymous User]

That makes sense. What do you students at NU consider "less selective" firms?

Note, there are two reasons to discount the median GPA by subtracting say 0.1 from it:

1) because it's a median which means half of people who got callbacks are below that median;
2) because firms will lose a lot of people they call back to more desirable firms.

(1) applies to every firm, even the most selective ones.
(2) applies to the firms that aren't the top-choices in any market. The are, by market:
Chicago: Kirkland, Sidley
DC: Covington, Wilmer, Williams & Connolly
NY: CSM/S&C/DPW.

Within each group, these firms lose people to each other, but are similarly selective so that doesn't lower their "offer accepted" GPA below their callback GPA. Less desirable firms in each market lose candidates to these firms, which lowers their "offer accepted" GPA below their callback GPA.

I've heard that in NYC, offers go out within a week or two of the callback. Is there like a waitlist for many of the people who do callbacks?

For example, if Paul Weiss callbacked 20 people, and offered 10 people immediately while rejecting 5, would they wait a bit to see if these 10 people accept the offer and then get back to the remaining 5? Or do NYC firms usually just offer/reject within the 2 week time period I see posted really often.

[rayiner]

For example, if Paul Weiss callbacked 20 people, and offered 10 people immediately while rejecting 5, would they wait a bit to see if these 10 people accept the offer and then get back to the remaining 5? Or do NYC firms usually just offer/reject within the 2 week time period I see posted really often.

Yes. Firms only use wait lists when they can't use statistics. Firms that have enormous summer classes, like Paul Weiss, know what %-age of their offers will be accepted. They'll get offers out relatively quickly, and if they over-subscribe the summer class by 10 people nobody cares. Small firms that might have a summer class of only 10 people are the ones that are going to play with wait lists.

[Bumi]

Thank you to everyone who is posting info in this thread. You're all fantastic.

Are there likely to be any major market (Chicago, DC, California, New York) firms left in the 30-40 range? What sorts of firms do people get with their lower bids?

[Evaly]

Did any 2L / 3L participate in the OnTour program for San Francisco? It seems to be a waste of effort with only 11 employers and many of them overlap with OCI / diversity fair. Any reason one should do the OnTour program -- maybe the chance of getting a call back is better than through OCI or diversity fairs?

Another Q that just occured to me: how bad is it to bid on OnTour, get an interview, not take it because you don't want to fly out to CA for 1 screening interview then bid on the same firm during OCI?

[rayiner]

Thank you to everyone who is posting info in this thread. You're all fantastic.

Are there likely to be any major market (Chicago, DC, California, New York) firms left in the 30-40 range? What sorts of firms do people get with their lower bids?

You might get DPW/CSM/S&C from 30's.

[D-hops]

Did any 2L / 3L participate in the OnTour program for San Francisco? It seems to be a waste of effort with only 11 employers and many of them overlap with OCI / diversity fair. Any reason one should do the OnTour program -- maybe the chance of getting a call back is better than through OCI or diversity fairs?

Another Q that just occured to me: how bad is it to bid on OnTour, get an interview, not take it because you don't want to fly out to CA for 1 screening interview then bid on the same firm during OCI?

I think Holly Golightly might have done the San Fran OnTour program, you might want to try PMing her.

[Bumi]

Are people more likely to rank firms by size or by selectivity? I want to bid somewhat conservatively, but the Chicago firms that seem to be less picky about GPA mostly have tiny classes. I'm scared to fill my top 10 with more selective firms, but I'm also scared to put any firms in there that will only hire five people.

Does "bid conservatively" actually just mean "bid on New York?"

[homestyle28]

Are people more likely to rank firms by size or by selectivity? I want to bid somewhat conservatively, but the Chicago firms that seem to be less picky about GPA mostly have tiny classes. I'm scared to fill my top 10 with more selective firms, but I'm also scared to put any firms in there that will only hire five people.

Does "bid conservatively" actually just mean "bid on New York?"

My sense is that bidding conservatively in Chicago means a mix of firms with decent size classes while avoiding the most competive firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Mayer and exclusive boutiqes like Grippo). My top 15 bids will be a mix of reach firms with bigger classes and safer GPA firms, but none with a class size smaller than 4 (and only 1 to 2 of those). In general my reach firms will be lower than my targets, except for the 1 or two I'm in love with. Unless LR miraculously comes through, I'll then gun the hell out of the safer GPA firms recruiting contacts to see if I can score some more screeners.

If I had more geographic flexibility then I would certainly pepper some NY firms in as well.

[Anonymous User]

I will say one thing- Law Review is a major boost at NU because everyone has high grades and it becomes a major differentiator.

[Anonymous User]

I will say one thing- Law Review is a major boost at NU because everyone has high grades and it becomes a major differentiator.

Everyone doesn't have high grades. That makes no sense.

[Flips88]

I will say one thing- Law Review is a major boost at NU because everyone has high grades and it becomes a major differentiator.

Do you understand what a curve is...?

Also: very lame use of anon feature

[rayiner]

I will say one thing- Law Review is a major boost at NU because everyone has high grades and it becomes a major differentiator.

Are you saying this as an NU student or...?

Your rationale makes no sense. NU's 1L curve is wider than most of the other T14: B+ average at the median, A average at the top. At most schools it's B+ average at the median, A- average at the top. This exaggerates, not lessens, the differences between GPA's. If firms were turning to LR because everyone had similar grades, they would be more likely to do it at places like UVA that have a very narrow spread from median to the top.

If LR is more helpful at NU than the other T14, it should be because NULR has no grade-on. This means that LR actually adds extra information independent of someone's GPA.

[Anonymous User]

After going to the Jenner event last night and having a good time, I'm interested, but intimidated. Is it a wasted bid at 3.55 w/o LR?

[Anonymous User]

Seems like it's time for a list up in here, Targeting Chicago, will peper in some small MW markets after 20th bid. 3.55, presumably no LR, but a secondar journal of some sort. Want to do lit, minor Labor/Employment interests:

Katten
McDermot
Jones Day
Neal Gerber
Winston
Jenner
Foley Lardner
Schiff Hardin
Latham
Vedder Price
dla piper
Reed Smith
Drinker Biddle
Baker Mackenzie
goldberg kohn
Morgan Lewis


Thoughts?

[Georgia Avenue]

I will say one thing- Law Review is a major boost at NU because everyone has high grades and it becomes a major differentiator.

[D-hops]

Seems like it's time for a list up in here, Targeting Chicago, will peper in some small MW markets after 20th bid. 3.55, presumably no LR, but a secondar journal of some sort. Want to do lit, minor Labor/Employment interests:

Katten
McDermot
Jones Day
Neal Gerber
Winston
Jenner
Foley Lardner
Schiff Hardin
Latham
Vedder Price
DLA Piper
Reed Smith
Drinker Biddle
Baker Mackenzie
Goldberg Kohn
Morgan Lewis


Thoughts?

I think that Kirkland and Sidley should be on your list. While you are probably under the median call back GPA (I actually just don't know this but am guessing) those are the two firms with the largest summer classes in chicago and have been known to take people with GPAs in that range as a part of their summer classes.

[Anonymous User]

Trying this out. 3.74, no LR, (hopefully) secondary journal. Litigation focused, staying in Chicago.

Kirkland
Sidley
Jenner
Winston
Mayer Brown
Katten
McDermott
Baker/McKenzie
Jones Day (Chi)
Skadden (Chi)
dla piper (Chi)

Top 5 is all I'm sure about for now. Could use some help developing the list a bit further.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have any insight on how people targeting NY did during last year's OCI? Particularly with median to top 1/3 grades?

[homestyle28]

Trying this out. 3.74, no LR, (hopefully) secondary journal. Litigation focused, staying in Chicago.

Kirkland
Sidley
Jenner
Winston
Mayer Brown
Katten
McDermott
Baker/McKenzie
Jones Day (Chi)
Skadden (Chi)
DLA Piper (Chi)

Top 5 is all I'm sure about for now. Could use some help developing the list a bit further.

People surely know better than I, but I'd say that looks about right...After my top 10 I'm going largely based on Nalp class sizes