Jones Day Forum

[Anonymous User]

The people I spoke with (a few DC, and a few NY) all said that they were given market bonus, with one of them claiming he got a little above market bonus. None of them said they received anything below that (though the sample size is obviously small). They said that, instead of getting a lump sum bonus at the end of the year, the bonus becomes a part of your raise for the next year. I guess that benefits the firm since, if you leave mid-year, they save some of the bonus $$ they would have given you, but doesn't sound bad at all. So they claim they don't pay bonuses, but that is a bit misleading.

They defer paying out your bonus for a year? Yeah that sounds awesome.

At least they give bonuses. And no, it doesn't get deferred for a year. It gets worked evenly into the next year's compensation. So most firms will give 1st years $7,500 at the end of the year, and then a raise to $170K whereas someone at Jones Day would just get a pay bump to $177.5K, so you start getting your bonus immediately, but it takes a full year to get the entire amount.

[concurrent fork]

At least they give bonuses. And no, it doesn't get deferred for a year. It gets worked evenly into the next year's compensation. So most firms will give 1st years $7,500 at the end of the year, and then a raise to $170K whereas someone at Jones Day would just get a pay bump to $177.5K, so you start getting your bonus immediately, but it takes a full year to get the entire amount.

Sure, but it's still less in present value terms than a lump sum payment. Assuming you put your bonus toward loans (7.9% rate) it's worth something like $400 less than the same bonus at another firm. Not a deal breaker by any means, but it's at least something to think about when comparing with peer firms.

[Anonymous User]

At least they give bonuses. And no, it doesn't get deferred for a year. It gets worked evenly into the next year's compensation. So most firms will give 1st years $7,500 at the end of the year, and then a raise to $170K whereas someone at Jones Day would just get a pay bump to $177.5K, so you start getting your bonus immediately, but it takes a full year to get the entire amount.

Sure, but it's still less in present value terms than a lump sum payment. Assuming you put your bonus toward loans (7.9% rate) it's worth something like $400 less than the same bonus at another firm. Not a deal breaker by any means, but it's at least something to think about when comparing with peer firms.

You also have the possibility of getting an above-market bonus (due to the black box nature of their compensation), and of the people I spoke with, more than 1 said that he got more than market bonus. That in itself can be a positive draw. And its not like there it a flipside "oh but they could also pay you less" aspect since, if they paid less than market compensation or bonus, word would get around, and people would leave. I'm sure it happens in rare cases when someone is seriously underperforming, but I'd imagine it doesn't happen often.

[Anonymous User]

At least they give bonuses. And no, it doesn't get deferred for a year. It gets worked evenly into the next year's compensation. So most firms will give 1st years $7,500 at the end of the year, and then a raise to $170K whereas someone at Jones Day would just get a pay bump to $177.5K, so you start getting your bonus immediately, but it takes a full year to get the entire amount.

Sure, but it's still less in present value terms than a lump sum payment. Assuming you put your bonus toward loans (7.9% rate) it's worth something like $400 less than the same bonus at another firm. Not a deal breaker by any means, but it's at least something to think about when comparing with peer firms.

(1) It is fairly ludicrous to base an employment decision involving a $177.5k salary on $400.
(2) If you give me a check for $7,500, I am going to blow well over $400 on something (likely whiskey). If you make it a part of my paycheck, I won't. (However, then I won't have the whiskey -- maybe I shouldn't work at Jones Day after all...)

[Anonymous User]

Any potential concern based on loss of 95 lawyers this year posted by new NLJ?

[Anonymous User]

Any potential concern based on loss of 95 lawyers this year posted by new NLJ?

I hadn't heard anything about this. I have seen various articles about JD stealing attorneys away from other firms, which seemed like a good sign. Does anyone have any context for the above?

[Anonymous User]

Bump. Any info on these departures?

[Anonymous User]

I can only speak for the NY office, but I suspect this is true everywhere.

Jones Day is like a window into what law firms looked like twenty years ago, which will be popular with some and not so popular with others. Most of their work is for old-school, blue chip industrial companies as opposed to exotic financial outfits or the like. They are more formal than most firms, and your personality will decide if that's good or bad. What some see as very polite, professional, respectful, and dignified; others see as rigid, uptight, and hierarchical.

Nice offices, super annoying elevators.

Summered in DC last year. I must say that most of the information about JD in this thread to this point is shockingly accurate for TLS! I particularly agree that what some see as a bug, others see as a feature (and I am in the latter camp in almost every respect about the firm).

As for the "Jones Days, Nights & Weekends" reputation, I think the only reason we have that nickname is because it sounds better than "Skadden Arps Nights & Weekends". Last summer, the office was very busy-- to the point where junior associates were appreciative of taking things off of their plates (rather than worrying about losing hours to the summers), but I never got the sense that people felt overworked, except for those who were in final prep for trial, etc. as would be expected. When leaving for the evening at VERY reasonable hours, the office didn't seem to be abuzz with activity. (Note: this does not account for people who were working from home, or weekends, but it does support those above who noted how pleased people seemed with their quality of life.) If you don't want to work hard, don't go into BigLaw.

As for the atty count in the NJL 350, I was genuinely shocked that the number had fallen. But I wouldn't worry too much about a decrease of 95. That's only 3.8% and that very well could be the result of normal attrition now that the job market is opening up a bit for laterals. (One associate from DC left to go in-house over the summer; another left to clerk for SCOTUS. One partner, sadly, passed away).

A few more things that haven't been discussed in the thread that are noteworthy about the firm.

1. "One Firm Worldwide" is more than just a slogan. And they put their money where their mouth is-- each summer they fly all SAs in North America to a single location for a day of training/seminars and an evening of food/drink to get to know our future peers from other offices.

2. The New Lawyers Group does a similar thing-- only it's a week of training for all first years (and newly arrived second years coming from clerkships). I'm also excited about the prospect of freelancing for several practice areas for a year to find the best fit for me rather than having to hope that the practice area I thought I wanted back during OCI is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

3. Somewhat related to the concern about the smaller NLJ numbers, more than any other firm I interviewed with, JD has a ton of home-grown talent-- especially in big-time leadership positions in the office and the firm. Another telling fact: there are several secretaries who have been there for 20+ years. That type of retention just would not happen in a firm that wasn't a good place to work.

This is already TL;DR. Hope those considering the firm and/or the DC office find this helpful. If you want to post questions, I'll try and get to them-- but it's getting to be crunch-time so it may be a while...

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for sharing that info. I'll be a SA in DC this summer and can't wait. Please check back occasionally when you have time. It would be great to continue getting your perspective on the firm.

[Anonymous User]

I can only speak for the NY office, but I suspect this is true everywhere.

Jones Day is like a window into what law firms looked like twenty years ago, which will be popular with some and not so popular with others. Most of their work is for old-school, blue chip industrial companies as opposed to exotic financial outfits or the like. They are more formal than most firms, and your personality will decide if that's good or bad. What some see as very polite, professional, respectful, and dignified; others see as rigid, uptight, and hierarchical.

Nice offices, super annoying elevators.

Summered in DC last year. I must say that most of the information about JD in this thread to this point is shockingly accurate for TLS! I particularly agree that what some see as a bug, others see as a feature (and I am in the latter camp in almost every respect about the firm).

As for the "Jones Days, Nights & Weekends" reputation, I think the only reason we have that nickname is because it sounds better than "Skadden Arps Nights & Weekends". Last summer, the office was very busy-- to the point where junior associates were appreciative of taking things off of their plates (rather than worrying about losing hours to the summers), but I never got the sense that people felt overworked, except for those who were in final prep for trial, etc. as would be expected. When leaving for the evening at VERY reasonable hours, the office didn't seem to be abuzz with activity. (Note: this does not account for people who were working from home, or weekends, but it does support those above who noted how pleased people seemed with their quality of life.) If you don't want to work hard, don't go into BigLaw.

As for the atty count in the NJL 350, I was genuinely shocked that the number had fallen. But I wouldn't worry too much about a decrease of 95. That's only 3.8% and that very well could be the result of normal attrition now that the job market is opening up a bit for laterals. (One associate from DC left to go in-house over the summer; another left to clerk for SCOTUS. One partner, sadly, passed away).

A few more things that haven't been discussed in the thread that are noteworthy about the firm.

1. "One Firm Worldwide" is more than just a slogan. And they put their money where their mouth is-- each summer they fly all SAs in North America to a single location for a day of training/seminars and an evening of food/drink to get to know our future peers from other offices.

2. The New Lawyers Group does a similar thing-- only it's a week of training for all first years (and newly arrived second years coming from clerkships). I'm also excited about the prospect of freelancing for several practice areas for a year to find the best fit for me rather than having to hope that the practice area I thought I wanted back during OCI is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

3. Somewhat related to the concern about the smaller NLJ numbers, more than any other firm I interviewed with, JD has a ton of home-grown talent-- especially in big-time leadership positions in the office and the firm. Another telling fact: there are several secretaries who have been there for 20+ years. That type of retention just would not happen in a firm that wasn't a good place to work.

This is already TL;DR. Hope those considering the firm and/or the DC office find this helpful. If you want to post questions, I'll try and get to them-- but it's getting to be crunch-time so it may be a while...

Fellow SA (diff office) +1 on all the above

[Anonymous User]

I can only speak for the NY office, but I suspect this is true everywhere.

Jones Day is like a window into what law firms looked like twenty years ago, which will be popular with some and not so popular with others. Most of their work is for old-school, blue chip industrial companies as opposed to exotic financial outfits or the like. They are more formal than most firms, and your personality will decide if that's good or bad. What some see as very polite, professional, respectful, and dignified; others see as rigid, uptight, and hierarchical.

Nice offices, super annoying elevators.

Summered in DC last year. I must say that most of the information about JD in this thread to this point is shockingly accurate for TLS! I particularly agree that what some see as a bug, others see as a feature (and I am in the latter camp in almost every respect about the firm).

As for the "Jones Days, Nights & Weekends" reputation, I think the only reason we have that nickname is because it sounds better than "Skadden Arps Nights & Weekends". Last summer, the office was very busy-- to the point where junior associates were appreciative of taking things off of their plates (rather than worrying about losing hours to the summers), but I never got the sense that people felt overworked, except for those who were in final prep for trial, etc. as would be expected. When leaving for the evening at VERY reasonable hours, the office didn't seem to be abuzz with activity. (Note: this does not account for people who were working from home, or weekends, but it does support those above who noted how pleased people seemed with their quality of life.) If you don't want to work hard, don't go into BigLaw.

As for the atty count in the NJL 350, I was genuinely shocked that the number had fallen. But I wouldn't worry too much about a decrease of 95. That's only 3.8% and that very well could be the result of normal attrition now that the job market is opening up a bit for laterals. (One associate from DC left to go in-house over the summer; another left to clerk for SCOTUS. One partner, sadly, passed away).

A few more things that haven't been discussed in the thread that are noteworthy about the firm.

1. "One Firm Worldwide" is more than just a slogan. And they put their money where their mouth is-- each summer they fly all SAs in North America to a single location for a day of training/seminars and an evening of food/drink to get to know our future peers from other offices.

2. The New Lawyers Group does a similar thing-- only it's a week of training for all first years (and newly arrived second years coming from clerkships). I'm also excited about the prospect of freelancing for several practice areas for a year to find the best fit for me rather than having to hope that the practice area I thought I wanted back during OCI is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

3. Somewhat related to the concern about the smaller NLJ numbers, more than any other firm I interviewed with, JD has a ton of home-grown talent-- especially in big-time leadership positions in the office and the firm. Another telling fact: there are several secretaries who have been there for 20+ years. That type of retention just would not happen in a firm that wasn't a good place to work.

This is already TL;DR. Hope those considering the firm and/or the DC office find this helpful. If you want to post questions, I'll try and get to them-- but it's getting to be crunch-time so it may be a while...

+1 on the thanks for coming by. What does the average week look like for a post clerkship associate? (arrival & and departure times, weekends? etc).

[Anonymous User]

+1 on the thanks for coming by. What does the average week look like for a post clerkship associate? (arrival & and departure times, weekends? etc).

Not the Anonymous you quoted but I can answer.

If your coming in from a clerkship you will probably be doing Trial Practice, so relative to the corporate groups you will have a more predictable schedule. So, assuming you will bill 8-10 hours each day and ~2 hours for non-billable stuff, just pick whatever time you prefer to arrive at the office before 10:30 and add 10-12 hours. I can't speak for any non-midwest offices but it seemed like a lot of people, esp people with families, would get there between 8-9, leave around 6-7, and bill a few hours from home later. This is obviously highly variable depending on what is actually going on at the time (trial, deadlines, etc). Weekends depend on how many hours you (don't) get billed during the week and need to make up / deadlines early in the week or trial prep.

Personally, I am hoping to bill 45-50 hours M-F and supplement on Saturday if need-be.

EDIT: I think this would hold true for any firm as well.

[Anonymous User]

Wow, thanks for all the helpful info on Jones Day. Anyone else have any feedback or advice on the firm?

[Anonymous User]

Other than the influence it has on which practice group you go to, how much does coming off of a clerkship impact missing out on doc review / other menial tasks vs. starting right out of law school?

[Anonymous User]

Other than the influence it has on which practice group you go to, how much does coming off of a clerkship impact missing out on doc review / other menial tasks vs. starting right out of law school?

None whatsoever, straight out of school or off a clerkship, you're still bottom of the totem pole.

[Anonymous User]

+1 on the thanks for coming by. What does the average week look like for a post clerkship associate? (arrival & and departure times, weekends? etc).

Not the Anonymous you quoted but I can answer.

If your coming in from a clerkship you will probably be doing Trial Practice, so relative to the corporate groups you will have a more predictable schedule. So, assuming you will bill 8-10 hours each day and ~2 hours for non-billable stuff, just pick whatever time you prefer to arrive at the office before 10:30 and add 10-12 hours. I can't speak for any non-midwest offices but it seemed like a lot of people, esp people with families, would get there between 8-9, leave around 6-7, and bill a few hours from home later. This is obviously highly variable depending on what is actually going on at the time (trial, deadlines, etc). Weekends depend on how many hours you (don't) get billed during the week and need to make up / deadlines early in the week or trial prep.

Personally, I am hoping to bill 45-50 hours M-F and supplement on Saturday if need-be.

EDIT: I think this would hold true for any firm as well.

How many hours a year do young associates end up billing? I don't think there is a technical requirement - is there at least a fairly firm expectation? Much pressure to meet and exceed? Consequences if short?

*Edit: found on Chambers that the Jones Day target is 2000/year. Still curious how much that matches experience and about the reality of expectations and pressures.

[Anonymous User]

any chance the Jones Day posters from earlier in the thread are still around?

[Anonymous User]

any chance the Jones Day posters from earlier in the thread are still around?

bump

[Anonymous User]

I will be a SA in the DC office:

What are the face-time requirements like? I'm interested in the above discussion on hours and schedule as well but am asking specifically how much flexibility there is to leave in time for dinner and then bill more hours later in the evening from home?

Anyone have a sense of things?

*Edited to clarify that I'm not asking about face-time expectations while a SA, but for 1-3 year associates.

[Stanford4Me]

I summered in the Dallas office last year and am returning. Though we're a little different than almost every other office, everything I've read thus far has been pretty accurate. Also, the "One Firm Worldwide" slogan holds true. There are people I worked with last summer who were able to get their offers transferred to DC, San Francisco and Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone else get the email about the event this summer in DC? Bringing together all summers from all 15 US offices. Can't wait to meet some of you who will be summering with JD. Should be a great event.

[Stanford4Me]

Everyone else get the email about the event this summer in DC? Bringing together all summers from all 15 US offices. Can't wait to meet some of you who will be summering with JD. Should be a great event.

The event was a lot of fun last year, except for one part that I won't discuss. After a day of learning about all things Jones Day you get to enjoy lots of food and lots of alcohol. Always good.

[Anonymous User]

any chance the Jones Day posters from earlier in the thread are still around?

bump

Yep. Ask away. (Assuming you're not one of the subsequent posters)

As far as the jr associate face-time requirements in DC, I only have my summer experience, but I didn't get the sense it was all that onerous. In other words, people didn't seem to hang around just to be at the office. There were some expected evening social events, but people genuinely enjoyed getting together socially.

Also, really wondering what I missed at the National SA event last year that "wasn't so fun" (apart from the early wake up the next day for a community service project).

[Anonymous User]

If you were just a summer so far, perhaps you don't have any real answer to this. But then again, maybe you heard stuff through the grapevine over your summer there. I ask since there seems to have been discussion of this in another thread: is the black box compensation system just an excuse to allow the firm to pay people below market salary? Again, totally understand if you have no real perspective on this yet, but figured I'd ask just in case.

[Anonymous User]

If you were just a summer so far, perhaps you don't have any real answer to this. But then again, maybe you heard stuff through the grapevine over your summer there. I ask since there seems to have been discussion of this in another thread: is the black box compensation system just an excuse to allow the firm to pay people below market salary? Again, totally understand if you have no real perspective on this yet, but figured I'd ask just in case.

You're right, I have no inside info. However no one I talked with expressed displeasure with the system. Also, I don't buy into the whole "it lets them pay below market" line. Because the market is well known, if they did pay below market people would leave. They do not pay lump bonuses, but rather include it in your annual compensation, so my guess is you'd actually be higher than market base (but ever so slightly behind total comp because of present value).