Below Median At CCN Forum

[Anonymous User]

1L a Chicago here, and every 2L I've talked to has a biglaw SA next summer. Maybe I'm only talking to smart people, but people seem to be doing fine for themselves.

Except for one guy I know (who probably doesn't interview well), the 3Ls I've talked to have either offers or federal clerkships. Granted, I don't know quite as many of them.

2L @ Chicago here. You sound like an insufferable asshole. I have friends who are "smart" w/o jobs (from OCI or otherwise) and I know quite a few 3Ls w/o offers or federal clerkships.

+1. 2L at Chicago here who knows people below, at, and above median without offers.

[Anonymous User]

anyone who responds to this will have anecdotal evidence, at best. I know all kinds of people at CCN (at and below median) (no law review) with decent offers. In my experience, the people without offers are a hot mess on some other register- they are arrogant, unshaven, socially awkward, or all of the above. It is important to 1) try as hard as you can 2) not be a total weirdo in your interviews 3) BID REALISTICALLY. The people that got screwed bid V15 when they were V100 material . A lot of people I know at T1 schools got jobs by hustling- mass mailing, networking, etc.

Take that as you will. Post your #s so we can better evaluate whether you really *should* ED to UChi. Also, if Chi is not your target market, I would advise you to ED to NYU or CLS instead . Firms don't have to spend a DIME to have you out for a callback- so if you're below median and worth 2 hours of their time , you get a shot. Think about it.

[Anonymous User]

In my experience, the people without offers are a hot mess on some other register- they are arrogant, unshaven, socially awkward, or all of the above. It is important to 1) try as hard as you can 2) not be a total weirdo in your interviews 3) BID REALISTICALLY.

Huge +1 to this from below median at NYU. I have heard tell of one or two people who didn't get offers out of OCI, but it was easily traceable to some non-grade factor in each case. Very few people here are truly fucked.

[Anonymous User]

anyone who responds to this will have anecdotal evidence, at best. I know all kinds of people at CCN (at and below median) (no law review) with decent offers. In my experience, the people without offers are a hot mess on some other register- they are arrogant, unshaven, socially awkward, or all of the above. It is important to 1) try as hard as you can 2) not be a total weirdo in your interviews 3) BID REALISTICALLY. The people that got screwed bid V15 when they were V100 material . A lot of people I know at T1 schools got jobs by hustling- mass mailing, networking, etc.

Take that as you will. Post your #s so we can better evaluate whether you really *should* ED to UChi. Also, if Chi is not your target market, I would advise you to ED to NYU or CLS instead . Firms don't have to spend a DIME to have you out for a callback- so if you're below median and worth 2 hours of their time , you get a shot. Think about it.

CCN 2L. Disagree with the bolded. Know a couple of fairly normal folks having a rough go of it.
There seems to be a desire here to ostracize people without offers. Why is that? Does it make people uncomfortable to think all that might have separated them from unemployment themselves was luck? It is by no means universal that all people without offers somehow deserve it by being arrogant or freaks or whatever.

I do agree about the CLS/NYU thing, but would likely encourage OP not to ED anywhere and see if you can pull in serious money at Cornell or something. Not sure I'd encourage anyone to commit to T6 at sticker ITE without at least weighing other options.

[Anonymous User]

Below median is fine for the most part at Penn. I only know one or two guys without SAs.

This is just false. Consider what you wrote and what it actually means. There is an enormous gulf between what you are claiming to know and what, in all likelihood, you actually meant to write.

I'm a different Penn student, and it's my impression as well that many below median 2Ls landed SAs. Like the NYU poster, I suspect that this year, there was some non-grades reason why many who don't have offers are in that position.

ETA: Not to disparage anyone who might have just plain gotten screwed. I'm sure it happens, and those in that boat are more likely to be quiet about it.

[Anonymous User]

NYU 2L at about 70% with 5 offers. Realistic bidding helped, but I got CBs from firms who should have kicked me out the second I handed them my transcript. I think the interviews are incredibly important, and it seems like at least some firms are willing to give you a second look just because they like your energy in the interview.

[Anonymous User]

Chicago is a weird place. They have a bunch of firms who only take high grades and then a bunch of firms who only take low grades (from CCN). Not as much in the middle. Regardless, bidding is huge. If around median, go NYC unless you have a strong preference. DC and Chicago were bloodbaths. Also, coming from a secondary market can be extremely helpful. I'd contact them before OCI to indicate you're interested and not just a last-ditch effort after striking out.

[Anonymous User]

i have an nyu above median friend with no offers b/c they bid too aggressively and on dc. does your guys' OCS ever explain the whole DC/NYC and bidding strategy thing? or is it just - here's your symplicity login now go?

[Anonymous User]

Many students at "above median" in the Top-14 have no offers - it tends to show that 1L's should refine their interview skills during the 1L Summer. Interview skills is a very important component of the recruitment process.

[cubbiesyear]

anyone who responds to this will have anecdotal evidence, at best. I know all kinds of people at CCN (at and below median) (no law review) with decent offers. In my experience, the people without offers are a hot mess on some other register- they are arrogant, unshaven, socially awkward, or all of the above. It is important to 1) try as hard as you can 2) not be a total weirdo in your interviews 3) BID REALISTICALLY. The people that got screwed bid V15 when they were V100 material . A lot of people I know at T1 schools got jobs by hustling- mass mailing, networking, etc.

Take that as you will. Post your #s so we can better evaluate whether you really *should* ED to UChi. Also, if Chi is not your target market, I would advise you to ED to NYU or CLS instead . Firms don't have to spend a DIME to have you out for a callback- so if you're below median and worth 2 hours of their time , you get a shot. Think about it.

To the bolded: Honestly I'm kind of gunning for biglaw in a couple of Midwestern secondary markets, but would love chicago too.
Numbers: 163-166, 170; 3.9X

[Anonymous User]

anyone who responds to this will have anecdotal evidence, at best. I know all kinds of people at CCN (at and below median) (no law review) with decent offers. In my experience, the people without offers are a hot mess on some other register- they are arrogant, unshaven, socially awkward, or all of the above. It is important to 1) try as hard as you can 2) not be a total weirdo in your interviews 3) BID REALISTICALLY. The people that got screwed bid V15 when they were V100 material . A lot of people I know at T1 schools got jobs by hustling- mass mailing, networking, etc.

Take that as you will. Post your #s so we can better evaluate whether you really *should* ED to UChi. Also, if Chi is not your target market, I would advise you to ED to NYU or CLS instead . Firms don't have to spend a DIME to have you out for a callback- so if you're below median and worth 2 hours of their time , you get a shot. Think about it.

To the bolded: Honestly I'm kind of gunning for biglaw in a couple of Midwestern secondary markets, but would love chicago too.
Numbers: 163-166, 170; 3.9X

Try to go to Stanford.
(Otherwise Chicago > CN.)

[Anonymous User]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't write off UChi because the Chicago market sucks - just bid in New York. No NYC firms are going to question your desire to move there. I'm a 2L, and anecdotally all the people I know who killed it in OCI bid in NYC while the people with no or few options bid Chicago or DC. I think it's much more about the market than the school.

But if you're worried about your rank, Chicago is just a safer bet than the lower T14. Firms do dip below median here. I think the smaller class size helps.

[Anonymous User]

I finished 1L year with a 3.0 gpa at NYU. I'm not sure exactly where that puts me in terms of class rank, but I think it's around the bottom 15% or so.

Despite my grades, I was lucky enough to get a V100 offer through EIW. I'm not a URM nor do I have any impressive work experience.

I can't speak for anyone else below median, since I don't really ask people their grades, but I can at least say from my own experience that you can still get a biglaw job even from the bottom of the class at NYU.

[Anonymous User]

I finished 1L year with a 3.0 gpa at NYU. I'm not sure exactly where that puts me in terms of class rank, but I'm pretty sure it has to be bottom 15% or so.

Despite my grades, I was lucky enough to get a V100 offer through EIW. I'm not a URM nor do I have any impressive work experience.

I can't speak for anyone else below median, since I don't really ask people their grades, but I can at least say from my own experience that you can still get a biglaw job even from the bottom of the class at NYU.

How are your interview skills?

[Anonymous User]

I finished 1L year with a 3.0 gpa at NYU. I'm not sure exactly where that puts me in terms of class rank, but I'm pretty sure it has to be bottom 15% or so.

Despite my grades, I was lucky enough to get a V100 offer through EIW. I'm not a URM nor do I have any impressive work experience.

I can't speak for anyone else below median, since I don't really ask people their grades, but I can at least say from my own experience that you can still get a biglaw job even from the bottom of the class at NYU.

How are your interview skills?

They were good enough to get me a job I guess. I'm not really sure how to judge that though.

[Anonymous User]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

People assume being personable, friendly and "normal" will help them do well in law interviews. That doesn't really make sense. You aren't interviewing to be Fraternity Prez, you're interviewing to work with a bunch of socially inept law geeks. Of course they are going to like the people they find the most relatable.

[Anonymous User]

i have an nyu above median friend with no offers b/c they bid too aggressively and on dc. does your guys' OCS ever explain the whole DC/NYC and bidding strategy thing? or is it just - here's your symplicity login now go?

As an NYU 2L who went through eiw I have to remark: bidding too aggressively on DC is perhaps the reason for striking out that is most easily traceable to a fault of the candidate's. OCS reiterated the dangers of the DC market time and time again. If 2Ls gave you a single piece of advice about eiw, it was to avoid DC. If you glanced for a moment at internet discussions of big law placement, you knew not to bid on DC. It took truly willful ignorance to go all in on DC this year. While I understand that certain poli-sci shitheads came into law school with the hope (assumption) that their prestigious law degree would take them immediately back to the district, their effective choice to risk it all for that privilege leaves me with considerably less sympathy for their plight than those who sunk to bidding on NJ firms and are still empty-handed.

[Pato_09]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

People assume being personable, friendly and "normal" will help them do well in law interviews. That doesn't really make sense. You aren't interviewing to be Fraternity Prez, you're interviewing to work with a bunch of socially inept law geeks. Of course they are going to like the people they find the most relatable.

I disagree - most, if not all, the interviewers I met were very personable, friendly, and "normal."

[Anonymous User]

i have an nyu above median friend with no offers b/c they bid too aggressively and on dc. does your guys' OCS ever explain the whole DC/NYC and bidding strategy thing? or is it just - here's your symplicity login now go?

As an NYU 2L who went through eiw I have to remark: bidding too aggressively on DC is perhaps the reason for striking out that is most easily traceable to a fault of the candidate's. OCS reiterated the dangers of the DC market time and time again.

I would agree with this assessment. NYU OCS pretty much made it clear that DC was going to be extremely selective. And OCS was willing to work with people to put together individualized bid lists that might include a few firms in a difficult market they were interested in (like DC) but that also included firms that students would have a good shot at. There was no reason for students to put all their eggs in the DC basket.

[tfer2222]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

People assume being personable, friendly and "normal" will help them do well in law interviews. That doesn't really make sense. You aren't interviewing to be Fraternity Prez, you're interviewing to work with a bunch of socially inept law geeks. Of course they are going to like the people they find the most relatable.

I disagree - most, if not all, the interviewers I met were very personable, friendly, and "normal."

+1

firms tend to send relatively social and personable attorneys to represent them in interviews.

Most of the people I met during OCI were really laid back and cool. And I Interviewed anywhere from v10 to non-vaults.

I dont think anon knows what he's talking about

[Anonymous User]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

People assume being personable, friendly and "normal" will help them do well in law interviews. That doesn't really make sense. You aren't interviewing to be Fraternity Prez, you're interviewing to work with a bunch of socially inept law geeks. Of course they are going to like the people they find the most relatable.

I disagree - most, if not all, the interviewers I met were very personable, friendly, and "normal."

I would concede to "law fratty" but not real world normal, by any stretch of the imagination.

[bdubs]

Its easy to blame interviewing skills for the good students without offers. A lot of times, its just good old fashioned luck.

I mean, I have no way of explaining why a bunch of the most socially awkward people in my section were the first to get offers besides GPA and they couldn't all have been at the top

People assume being personable, friendly and "normal" will help them do well in law interviews. That doesn't really make sense. You aren't interviewing to be Fraternity Prez, you're interviewing to work with a bunch of socially inept law geeks. Of course they are going to like the people they find the most relatable.

Personable is only half way to a good interview. I have interviewed lots of personable people who said stupid things in response to interview questions. Don't assume that because someone comes off as slightly awkward that they don't know how to interview. I've also interviewed more people who are smart on paper but poor at interviewing than I care to count.

[Anonymous User]

but it will be marginally safer, IMO, going to schools with smaller class sizes (i.e. Chi, Cornell, Penn) then it will be going to schools with much larger ones (i.e., Columbia, NYU, Mich).

Maybe true within ranges (Penn v. Michigan, Chi v. CLS/NYU). Definitely not true of Cornell v. CLS, NYU or Mich, though; it's a huge step down from MVP and Northwestern to Cornell in terms of employment prospects. Also not true of Penn v. CLS/NYU; the latter are definitely in better shape.

Anyway, getting an SA is less than a completely sure thing once you get below a 3.4 at NYU, but of course it depends vastly on where you bid (a 3.4 going all-in on DC probably struck out, whereas a 3.25 bidding only on NYC likely got a job) as well as less tangible things like work experience, language skills and interviewing abilities.

[Anonymous User]

but it will be marginally safer, IMO, going to schools with smaller class sizes (i.e. Chi, Cornell, Penn) then it will be going to schools with much larger ones (i.e., Columbia, NYU, Mich).

Maybe true within ranges (Penn v. Michigan, Chi v. CLS/NYU). Definitely not true of Cornell v. CLS, NYU or Mich, though; it's a huge step down from MVP and Northwestern to Cornell in terms of employment prospects. Also not true of Penn v. CLS/NYU; the latter are definitely in better shape.

lol wut? what are you basing this on? if it's anecdotes, i can tell you that i know people that are significantly below median at cornell who have gotten biglaw, even in places like DC/Bay Area. if you you are basing it on statistics, well i think the nlj 250 list is somewhere around here. i'd venture to say that Cornell is probably a better choice than NW and probably just as good as michigan just because of a smaller class and the fact that NYC is its main market.