UVA Law’s Employment Numbers Are Less Than Impressive? Forum

[Aberzombie1892]

+1 to Penn being number 7. After that, things get murky.

[Helmholtz]

That would undoubtedly be Penn.

Agree with this.

[JCougar]

Yeah, this is not true of Chicago. Maybe a few mid-sized firms in Chicago are like this, but good luck getting one of those jobs ITE without stellar grades from a T14.

Anyways, UVA is still probably the best non-T6 school there is. And really, is it all that shocking that 1/4 of their class is unemployed? I'd imagine many will be snatched up once bar results come back.

Aside from maybe Kirkland & Ellis, there's really little comparison in overall city-wide leverage ratios between NYC and Chicago. It's more that NYC is really bad than Chicago is really good, however.

If you want to argue that Chicago is still an associate mill compared to St. Louis or Milwaukee or something, that's fine. But compared to NYC, you have what seems to be a significantly better chance of making partner just by looking at the ratio of partners/associates.

And the recent list and numbers, rough as they may be, of which schools produce the most Biglaw parters per graduate, tends to confirm this. Chicago and NU are surprisingly high on there.

[FlightoftheEarls]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

LOL no.

LOL yes. In before "but US News says NYU is ranked higher" and in before " Hmmm according to my theoretical analysis the NYC market collapsed before other major markets and thus this means (insert pulled out of ass 'facts' here). "
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings
--LinkRemoved--
http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

Article III placement by class percentage for the past three years of available data: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p#p4122116

Firm jobs are going to be a stickier proposition if we're going by Vault rankings. Even still, there are plenty of V100 DC firms that are much more difficult to land than your average NYC V10.

+1 to Penn being number 7. After that, things get murky.

I don't know why these threads devolve into discussions like this, but making blanket statements based on a NYC-centric worldview is rather silly. Number 7 for what?

A3 clerkships? Pretty close among MVPD.
Academia? MB are well ahead.
NYC biglaw? Penn places more of its students there, true. It's also the easiest primary market to land by a decent margin.
DC biglaw? Pretty even among MVPBND and will require top credentials regardless of school. Very difficult market to land.
Chicago biglaw? N takes the cake, with M second. Tougher market than NYC.
Southern biglaw? VD have great reputations, and more firms recruit from them consistently. Probably not terribly difficult from any T14 with decent grades and legitimate ties.
SF biglaw? B, seemingly followed by M and V. Much tougher market than NYC.

Bottom line: Let's not turn this into a "which school is actually #7?" debate and just leave it that each school might have very slight historical placement advantages in different areas.

[TaipeiMort]

+1 to Penn being number 7. After that, things get murky.

Why is NYU better than Penn?

I don't think any numbers besides US news rankings back that up.

Penn and NYU are probably the same for every market besides NYC. NYU just gets a little boost away from Penn because of its location in New York, which skews its ranking because so many New York attorneys contribute to US News's survey.

In terms of having no problem placing most of their grads nationally, and overall reputation, there are five national schools. I think you could even argue that there are three national schools (Harvard, Yale, Chicago) that have fairly even national placement, and two other elite schools which concentrate their grads in their home markets-- (Columbia and Stanford).

[Julio_El_Chavo]

lots of unforgivable Penn trolling ITT

[barry]

+1 to Penn being number 7. After that, things get murky.

Why is NYU better than Penn?

I don't think any numbers besides US news rankings back that up.

Penn and NYU are probably the same for every market besides NYC. NYU just gets a little boost away from Penn because of its location in New York, which skews its ranking because so many New York attorneys contribute to US News's survey.

In terms of having no problem placing most of their grads nationally, and overall reputation, there are five national schools. I think you could even argue that there are three national schools (Harvard, Yale, Chicago) that have fairly even national placement, and two other elite schools which concentrate their grads in their home markets-- (Columbia and Stanford).

perhaps the most egregious U Chi trolling I've ever seen

[TaipeiMort]

+1 to Penn being number 7. After that, things get murky.

Why is NYU better than Penn?

I don't think any numbers besides US news rankings back that up.

Penn and NYU are probably the same for every market besides NYC. NYU just gets a little boost away from Penn because of its location in New York, which skews its ranking because so many New York attorneys contribute to US News's survey.

In terms of having no problem placing most of their grads nationally, and overall reputation, there are five national schools. I think you could even argue that there are three national schools (Harvard, Yale, Chicago) that have fairly even national placement, and two other elite schools which concentrate their grads in their home markets-- (Columbia and Stanford).

perhaps the most egregious U Chi trolling I've ever seen

I don't think many would argue that Columbia and Stanford place a really high percentage of their grads into their local markets, and that people going there self-select into those schools based upon a desire to live there. Yale, Harvard, and Chicago have more dispersed placement patterns.

[quakeroats]

I don't think many would argue that Columbia and Stanford place a really high percentage of their grads into their local markets

I had no idea Stanford placed so many grads in Palo Alto.

[rayiner]

Re: NYU, don't underestimate the legitimate safety-net advantage that comes from half a dozen firms (NYC V10s) with 100-person summer classes willing to take a dozen NYU students each. Talking about 10% article III clerkships versus 12% is hair splitting. Talk about V100 NYC firms going way below median b/c V10s hired up the majority of the top half.

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

[TaipeiMort]

I don't think many would argue that Columbia and Stanford place a really high percentage of their grads into their local markets

I had no idea Stanford placed so many grads in Palo Alto.

I'm pretty sure Stanford's local market is all of California, as they don't have a real competitor in the whole state.

[quakeroats]

I don't think many would argue that Columbia and Stanford place a really high percentage of their grads into their local markets

I had no idea Stanford placed so many grads in Palo Alto.

I'm pretty sure Stanford's local market is all of California, as they don't have a real competitor in the whole state.

I'm just throwing cold water on that conception of a local market. Local markets do not always end at state lines. And if we're going to talk about Stanford's local market including LA (350 miles from Palo Alto), then it's silly to talk about Harvard (225 miles from NYC) and Yale (80 miles from NYC) not placing graduates locally.

[TaipeiMort]

I don't think many would argue that Columbia and Stanford place a really high percentage of their grads into their local markets

I had no idea Stanford placed so many grads in Palo Alto.

I'm pretty sure Stanford's local market is all of California, as they don't have a real competitor in the whole state.

I'm just throwing cold water on that conception of a local market. Local markets do not always end at state lines. And if we're going to talk about Stanford's local market including LA (350 miles from Palo Alto), then it's silly to talk about Harvard (225 miles from NYC) and Yale (80 miles from NYC) not placing graduates locally.

Yeah, if you want to define it this way, Chicago may be able to call Texas a local market because they have a lot of conservative students that self-select there and match up better ideologically than the rest of the T5, and the rest of the midwest as well is probably their market. I guess what I meant is that people going to to Chicago, Harvard, or Yale are much more varied in their market choice than Columbia or Stanford. However, I bet a generic kid from Stanford is going to have much better results in the Chicago market than a Chicago kid because Stanford alums are relatively rare outside of CA and NYC.

[09042014]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

It's hard enough finding a Chicago firm that will make you a junior associate.

[romothesavior]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

It's hard enough finding a Chicago firm that will make you a junior associate.

+1... Chicago blows right now.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Re: NYU, don't underestimate the legitimate safety-net advantage that comes from half a dozen firms (NYC V10s) with 100-person summer classes willing to take a dozen NYU students each. Talking about 10% article III clerkships versus 12% is hair splitting. Talk about V100 NYC firms going way below median b/c V10s hired up the majority of the top half.

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

No one below median at NYU gets a V10 SA job. HTH

[romothesavior]

Re: NYU, don't underestimate the legitimate safety-net advantage that comes from half a dozen firms (NYC V10s) with 100-person summer classes willing to take a dozen NYU students each. Talking about 10% article III clerkships versus 12% is hair splitting. Talk about V100 NYC firms going way below median b/c V10s hired up the majority of the top half.

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

No one below median at NYU gets a V10 SA job. HTH

RC fail by you chief.

[BruceWayne]

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

This is retarded. It assumes that basically everyone's only concern and goal is working at a firm in NYC.

[quakeroats]

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

This is retarded. It assumes that basically everyone's only concern and goal is working at a firm in NYC.

It assumes no such thing. If anything, the key assumption is that a student would prefer firm work to non-firm work.

[romothesavior]

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

This is retarded. It assumes that basically everyone's only concern and goal is working at a firm in NYC.

I think it really just assumes people want to get a job that pays six-figures.

[BruceWayne]

I think it really just assumes people want to get a job that pays six-figures.

Shockingly, to a lot of people where they live is just as important (or gasp--moreso) than income alone. Particularly when that "six figure" salary is basically the equivalent to 75K in a lot of other locales. What's worse is that his theory is basically garbage. For the past several years we've seen that NYU has been behind at least one of MVPB or northwestern in nlj 250 placement. He'll come back with some BS theory about why the NlJ lags and all this other trash that he's heard someone else with 7000 posts say. Then another 8000 post person will say the same thing and then "verify" it as "fact" because they saw the autoadmit "data" that claimed 70 percent of NYU students landed big firm jobs (which ironically enough is roughly equivalent to what we've found out about UVA. 27 percent unemployed or whatever).

[romothesavior]

[70 percent of NYU students landed big firm jobs (which ironically enough is roughly equivalent to what we've found out about UVA. 27 percent unemployed or whatever).

LOLWUT

What kind of logic is this?

[bjsesq]

I think it really just assumes people want to get a job that pays six-figures.

Shockingly, to a lot of people where they live is just as important (or gasp--moreso) than income alone. Particularly when that "six figure" salary is basically the equivalent to 75K in a lot of other locales. What's worse is that his theory is basically garbage. For the past several years we've seen that NYU has been behind at least one of MVPB or northwestern in nlj 250 placement. He'll come back with some BS theory about why the NlJ lags and all this other trash that he's heard someone else with 7000 posts say. Then another 8000 post person will say the same thing and then "verify" it as "fact" because they saw the autoadmit "data" that claimed 70 percent of NYU students landed big firm jobs (which ironically enough is roughly equivalent to what we've found out about UVA. 27 percent unemployed or whatever).

Yeah, u real mad. Real mad.

[quakeroats]

I think it really just assumes people want to get a job that pays six-figures.

Shockingly, to a lot of people where they live is just as important (or gasp--moreso) than income alone. Particularly when that "six figure" salary is basically the equivalent to 75K in a lot of other locales. What's worse is that his theory is basically garbage. For the past several years we've seen that NYU has been behind at least one of MVPB or northwestern in nlj 250 placement. He'll come back with some BS theory about why the NlJ lags and all this other trash that he's heard someone else with 7000 posts say. Then another 8000 post person will say the same thing and then "verify" it as "fact" because they saw the autoadmit "data" that claimed 70 percent of NYU students landed big firm jobs (which ironically enough is roughly equivalent to what we've found out about UVA. 27 percent unemployed or whatever).

NLJ numbers aren't a good metric for placement. Schools can help students get interviews and callbacks, but after that it's up to each student whether they get an offer for the summer and an offer of permanent employment. The NLJ numbers come in when a school's influence is out of the picture.

[rayiner]

Re: NYU, don't underestimate the legitimate safety-net advantage that comes from half a dozen firms (NYC V10s) with 100-person summer classes willing to take a dozen NYU students each. Talking about 10% article III clerkships versus 12% is hair splitting. Talk about V100 NYC firms going way below median b/c V10s hired up the majority of the top half.

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

No one below median at NYU gets a V10 SA job. HTH

Weil and Kirkland do dip below median, though it's rare. More important is that V10s actively recruit top 1/3 and will take above median. Reduces competition enormously for those firms that do take below median.

ITE if you're at median you should bid NYC anyway. So why not do it from NYU?