Recent Grads Forum

[Renne Walker]

T-14/cum laude/$160K/NYC office of California-based biglaw firm

T20/top10%/>$160K/lit boutique (non-NY)

Cool! I will Pop the cork on a Dom Perignon in your honor!

You are the inspiration for us OLs. I like polls, and this is the best poll ever on TLS! I hope more grads chime in!

[Grizz]

I'm in ur pollz

Skewing your data

[Black-Blue]

4/5 chance of being employed isn't that bad, actually, because 80% of TLS users believe they are in the top 10% of TLS users.

[Renne Walker]

If you have already made a bet, even a bad one, I understand the desire to root for it to pay off. What I and many others do not understand is the unfailing march to place more and more bad bets.

Generally speaking I visit TSL for its entertainment value. Plus, it enabled me to connect, in the real world, with a couple of OLs from my school and Columbia. I will add that I have learned some interesting tidbits from law school recruiters, those discussing the A2Z on OCI and a few other topics.

As far as this poll, I suppose I didn’t give it much thought other than it would be interesting to see what the compensation, or status, of the grads on what could be roughly called TLS University. Isn’t this exactly what the individual universities do when they ask their grads the same question? Although interesting to a point, honestly, none of it matters until 2014.

As far as a “bet.” I have no problem putting my chips on NYU. So yeah, I am feeling pretty lucky. My hope is that in three years I can come back and check off the $160K box.

[ndirish2010]

4/5 chance of being employed isn't that bad, actually, because 80% of TLS users believe they are in the top 10% of TLS users.

Haha, +1.

[A'nold]

I'm in ur pollz

Skewing your data

Nice. I can't wait to join you, lol.

[bk1]

Trimodal salary distribution (biglaw/smalllaw/nolaw): proven.

[BarbellDreams]

While these polls are entertaining, the problem with them is they are on TLS, meaning that the majority of people will be attended either t14's or T30's. Also, I would say majority of people on TLS are above median (based on their own reporting anyway). These two factors will heavily skew data, along with the fact that there is a large range of random variables that cannot be accounted for.

I agree with most of what you said, except the part about the majority of TLS people attend either t14's or T30's. To me, it seems like all the schools have plenty of activity, not just the upper tier schools.

That said, the survey (as of now is a bit weird), 9% of the grads are in-between $150K and $70K (or looking). The conclusion leads me to conclude that it is either “feast or famine.” Not that $70K is famine, but after debt service ($150k) , and taxes (20%), a bit under $3K a month is the likely take home.

Actually, if you're a regular on TLS you would know that a VAST majority of people on here are from T30s. I personally am at a T2, but I am in the minority. For every T2 you see there are 3 T30s you hear from. After posting on here for over a year I can attest to the fact that out of all regular posters I go to one of the lowest ranked schools of TLSers.

[AreJay711]

I read somewhere that the bimodal salary distribution, while true, is overstated (Fucking Intergrals, how do they work?) . Something like 50% of law grads make more than 70K and less than 160K. Of course it looks worse than that because each individual salary less than 160K isn't that frequent. Most of those might be large firms in secondary markets but still.

[thesealocust]

I read somewhere that the bimodal salary distribution, while true, is overstated (Fucking Intergrals, how do they work?) . Something like 50% of law grads make more than 70K and less than 160K. Of course it looks worse than that because each individual salary less than 160K isn't that frequent. Most of those might be large firms in secondary markets but still.

No, it's badly understated. It's based on an incomplete data set that MASSIVELY over count $160,000 salaries and doesn't count unemployed people of any stripe at all.

Basically, the bimodal charts we see include almost every big law job out there (easy to count people at big firms) but only has 20,000 or so respondents out of 45,000+ legal grads.

People enjoy making the "area under the curve" argument about the number of jobs that exist in the middle of the chart, but that is a tiny correction compared to its fundamental flaw for assessing the market as a whole.

[A'nold]

We can /thread right now. Isn't it obvious that we are all going to be doing temporary doc review 10 years from now, applying and striving for anything else but never coming close b/c there are ZERO entry level attorney jobs or non-attorney jobs with any upward mobility and then moving to Turkey to escape our loan debt?

[thesealocust]

We can /thread right now. Isn't it obvious that we are all going to be doing temporary doc review 10 years from now, applying and striving for anything else but never coming close b/c there are ZERO entry level attorney jobs or non-attorney jobs with any upward mobility and then moving to Turkey to escape our loan debt?

30,000 legal jobs for 45,000 legal grads. I love you dude but it's every bit as grim as the thread you're mocking makes it out to be.

[BarbellDreams]

We can /thread right now. Isn't it obvious that we are all going to be doing temporary doc review 10 years from now, applying and striving for anything else but never coming close b/c there are ZERO entry level attorney jobs or non-attorney jobs with any upward mobility and then moving to Turkey to escape our loan debt?

We had a law recruiter at our school who said "Don't be afraid to work in retail out of law schools. You can spin it to say you have a lot of interpersonal skills."

[A'nold]

We can /thread right now. Isn't it obvious that we are all going to be doing temporary doc review 10 years from now, applying and striving for anything else but never coming close b/c there are ZERO entry level attorney jobs or non-attorney jobs with any upward mobility and then moving to Turkey to escape our loan debt?

30,000 legal jobs for 45,000 legal grads. I love you dude but it's every bit as grim as the thread you're mocking makes it out to be.

One thing people keep overlooking is the fact that people at the bottom of their class have a very hard time finding legal work. That's just common sense. How many of those 15k without a legal job were in the bottom 25%? The majority of schools out there qualify as ttt's. Let's just name a few where it's already extremely tough to find a legal job, regardless of your grades:

Cooley
Wittier
Thomas Jefferson
Appalachian
Willamette
Widener
FIU
Barry
Touro
Oklahoma City
St. Thomas MN
St. Thomas Fl.
John Marshall Chicago
John Marshall Atlanta
Roger Williams
Creighton
Albany
Hofstra
Regent
Liberty
Memphis
Elon
Florida A&M
Akron
Toledo


These were all off the top of my head. Do you really think that students coming from these schools have just as good a chance as any other law student at getting one of the 30,000 jobs? This is what the scam bloggers would have us believe. Note that the same applies for most of the t2's that I didn't mention and many t1's. AND, bottom 25% at almost all schools will struggle to find work.

What does this tell us? The general rule that if you go to a well regarded school and finish NOT at the bottom of your class, you should get a legal job. This does not mean a biglaw job or a job you even like.

So, the scam blogger message that we are all doomed to a life of doc review and that we can search for an entry level position for 10 years and not get one is completely exaggerated and people like robo and verity buying the message hook, line, and sinker are extremely naive.

[mpj_3050]

I actually have a question you guys/gals may be able to answer and didn't want to make a new thread since it is relevant. Schools obviously spin the employment, but how is debt calculated? Some of these figures seem really, really low. Is it a self-report kind of thing like employment surveys?

[A'nold]

I actually have a question you guys/gals may be able to answer and didn't want to make a new thread since it is relevant. Schools obviously spin the employment, but how is debt calculated? Some of these figures seem really, really low. Is it a self-report kind of thing like employment surveys?

You are not alone. I've always felt like some kind of debtor for life when I look at the average debt upon graduation numbers. It's like "average debt upon graduation for UW": 45,000, lol.

[Renne Walker]

Actually, if you're a regular on TLS you would know that a VAST majority of people on here are from T30s.

Good point. This might explain why only 24% of the TLS grads are still looking as opposed to 33% of the entire graduating class. The 33% is derived from the belief that there are 30,000 available positions for 45,000 grads, leaving 15,000 (33%) falling into the "still looking" category.

This might also account for the 38% polling figure of TSL grads earning +100K. Yes/No?

[BarbellDreams]

Actually, if you're a regular on TLS you would know that a VAST majority of people on here are from T30s.

Good point. This might explain why only 24% of the TLS grads are still looking as opposed to 33% of the entire graduating class. The 33% is derived from the belief that there are 30,000 available positions for 45,000 grads, leaving 15,000 (33%) falling into the "still looking" category.

This might also account for the 38% polling figure of TSL grads earning +100K. Yes/No?

I mean the 24% of "still looking" on the poll is meaningless. It would have marginal significance if you made sure EVERY TLSer voted, but at this point you have a random 12 or so people voting in that category, and not even accounting for trolls. Either way, TLSers are just a batch and dont accurately represent the job statistics or salaries of ALL law grads.

[Renne Walker]

No debate here on your post. Although I think this thread could have been useful if grads were providing meaningful comments. On the other hand, how many grads actually visit after securing employment? I cannot see myself visiting this web site after graduation, or after classes start. Honestly, how many people go back and read the LSAT section once you are done with it?

As far as all this gloom and doom I see on this site way too often, we just had lunch with a 2L making $3,000 a week over the summer. She said $3,000 was the standard summer pay at her firm. How bad can things really be?

BTW: There are maybe 200 law schools, with an average class size of 250, claiming +90% employment. Talk about numbers that do not add up!

[BarbellDreams]

No debate here on your post. Although I think this thread could have been useful if grads were providing meaningful comments. On the other hand, how many grads actually visit after securing employment? I cannot see myself visiting this web site after graduation, or after classes start. Honestly, how many people go back and read the LSAT section once you are done with it?

As far as all this gloom and doom I see on this site way too often, we just had lunch with a 2L making $3,000 a week over the summer. She said $3,000 was the standard summer pay at her firm. How bad can things really be?

BTW: There are maybe 200 law schools, with an average class size of 250, claiming +90% employment. Talk about numbers that do not add up!

This would be VERY helpful if we somehow got a ton of recent grads voting. Also, there are plenty who come back after graduating. I come back to help in the "Choosing Law School" forum although mine has long been chosen.

$3,000/week is market or slightly above market (depending on market obviously) at biglaw. With that said, for every 1 person that is SA-ing with 3K a week there are 5 that are unpaid and 10 that are unemployed.

[thesealocust]

As far as all this gloom and doom I see on this site way too often, we just had lunch with a 2L making $3,000 a week over the summer. She said $3,000 was the standard summer pay at her firm. How bad can things really be?

Are you dumb? Because you sound dumb.

$3,0777 (or $3,080 depending on how they do the math) is the standard salary for big law firm summer associates. The programs last 8-12 weeks for the most part and result in full time offers of employment at big firms which pay (almost all of them, without variation) $160,000 starting salaries.

There are about 5,000 of those jobs in the country every year.

There are about 45,000 law students.

Outside of those jobs, and a few which are similar but less opulent in smaller legal markets, the market is absolutely awful and there are very few positions anywhere or at any salary.

It's feast or famine. If you wind up at the right school, get the right grades, and do the right things in interviews you have a chance of landing in the small group that gets a terrifically remunerative job after school. If you're part of the majority that don't, your odds of being unemployed - at least in the legal sector - are staggering, and your salary expectations are likely to be one quarter or so of what the big law people are making.

It's systematic and it's documented. There's no room for debate about the numbers, there's no reason to poll the 10 or so actual lawyers on TLS when there's a plethora of data all pointing to the same conclusion available for anyone willing to look at it.

[Bronx Bum]

As far as all this gloom and doom I see on this site way too often, we just had lunch with a 2L making $3,000 a week over the summer. She said $3,000 was the standard summer pay at her firm. How bad can things really be?

Are you dumb? Because you sound dumb.

$3,0777 (or $3,080 depending on how they do the math) is the standard salary for big law firm summer associates. The programs last 8-12 weeks for the most part and result in full time offers of employment at big firms which pay (almost all of them, without variation) $160,000 starting salaries.

There are about 5,000 of those jobs in the country every year.

There are about 45,000 law students.

Outside of those jobs, and a few which are similar but less opulent in smaller legal markets, the market is absolutely awful and there are very few positions anywhere or at any salary.

It's feast or famine. If you wind up at the right school, get the right grades, and do the right things in interviews you have a chance of landing in the small group that gets a terrifically remunerative job after school. If you're part of the majority that don't, your odds of being unemployed - at least in the legal sector - are staggering, and your salary expectations are likely to be one quarter or so of what the big law people are making.

It's systematic and it's documented. There's no room for debate about the numbers, there's no reason to poll the 10 or so actual lawyers on TLS when there's a plethora of data all pointing to the same conclusion available for anyone willing to look at it.

LOL at the doom and gloom. I know a lawyer who never went to law school, yet is making great money.

[Anonymous User]

Many 0L's are morons when it comes to employment expectations, no doubt about it. But here's one thing I find especially unsettling- many of the rising 2L's at my T1 school are still similarly naive. Has anyone else noticed this?

Lots of my friends think they won't have any difficulty finding a job despite sub-median grades because they were able to get a judge or crap firm to take them on as unpaid slave labor this summer. In their minds, this correlates to their ability to find a full-time, well-paid gig with benefits in the exact market of their choice. Most of these kids are paying sticker, came straight from undergrad, have no idea what their monthly loan payments will be, and seem to just expect they will make a hundred G's or so when they get out practicing constitutional or international law. Lulz.

TLS represents a gunnerific sample of well-informed students. My friends, on the other hand, seem like lambs heading to slaughter this fall. Disillusionment will hit them like a sledgehammer to the nuts between August and October. I would say that, overall, 25% of the kids at my school have a serious clue about the employment picture.

[Bronx Bum]

Many 0L's are morons when it comes to employment expectations, no doubt about it. But here's one thing I find especially unsettling- many of the rising 2L's at my T1 school are still similarly naive. Has anyone else noticed this?

Lots of my friends think they won't have any difficulty finding a job despite sub-median grades because they were able to get a judge or crap firm to take them on as unpaid slave labor this summer. In their minds, this correlates to their ability to find a full-time, well-paid gig with benefits in the exact market of their choice. Most of these kids are paying sticker, came straight from undergrad, have no idea what their monthly loan payments will be, and seem to just expect they will make a hundred G's or so when they get out practicing constitutional or international law. Lulz.

TLS represents a gunnerific sample of well-informed students. My friends, on the other hand, seem like lambs heading to slaughter this fall. Disillusionment will hit them like a sledgehammer to the nuts between August and October. I would say that, overall, 25% of the kids at my school have a serious clue about the employment picture.

Even most people on TLS are naive. I just finished 1L and I can'y believe how many people don't see it coming. Everyone is going to get fucking slaughtered at OCI. And people say "well you can still get biglaw later on, like working for a smaller firm for a while." The problem is that people on this board overestimate how much legal work in general is out there--especially shitlaw and PI.

[EliHBCU]

I agree with some of the earlier posts. I like this poll. If we didn't have annoying people intentionally trying to mess it up, I would be very interested to see how the recent graduates job placement was really going.

Also, to the people who really believe that only "top schools's" students post in this forum, you're obviously not paying attention. I'm from a tier-4 school and I have a job offer at a large local firm. I'll make 80K-ish a year to start, and see what happens from there.

It's interesting to see (at least where the polls were when I saw them) that 25ish percent were in each "under 70k", "over 160k", and "jobless".