Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades? Forum

[OldManHunger]

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[RVP11]

This is what ONE LADY said about BigLaw to BigLaw lateral moves. ... She probably just threw out some arbitrary "high" GPA.

Or maybe, more rationally, she stated the GPA that her group has settled on to help them sort through the hundreds and hundreds of resumes that almost any open position attracts these days. You can argue with the choice--the median is different at different schools, so 3.5 isn't a steady cutoff--but I doubt she was just making shit up.

And I'm sure someone with a 3.4 who's at a V10 would still be a better lateral candidate (for other BigLaw firms) than the 3.6 who's at a V50-V100.

Why are you sure of that? It doesn't make any sense. You're sure that people with hiring power will be more impressed with the size of a person's former firm than what that person did there or whether that person was top 33% versus top 20% in law school?

If you don't know anything, don't say anything. There's enough misinformation around here already, and, unfortunately, naive 0Ls will latch onto anything that makes their dreams seem more possible regardless of the truth.

Vault has nothing to do with size. And how does firm quality/prestige mean less than law school GPA for lateral hiring, in your estimation? Firms like prestige, man. There is also the notion that the person at the higher-ranked firm is being held to a higher standard, doing more complex work, etc. Whatever the case, I'd rather be a dude with a middling GPA but at a firm like K&E/STB/DPW/Skadden than a dude with Law Review grades at Shearman/Dewey/White & Case if I were trying to lateral to another BigLaw firm, and I know this to be a common sentiment - lateraling "down" is much easier than lateraling "up."

Why are you talking about naive 0Ls? I have never heard of a single 0L whose dream is to be a BigLaw lawyer trying to lateral to another BigLaw firm.

[Stanislaw Carter]

There is no way GPA is more important that the prestige of a firm. For abundant proof of this, look at many lateral job postings. They'll typically state that the candidate must come from a "top 10" (or top whatever) firm.

Some firms are notorious for being grade-sticklers no matter how senior you are, but those firms are rare. Other firms are notorious for taking few laterals in general, and those they do take are not hired because of grades. But, by and large, your experience at a top law firm will carry the day for lateraling. A superstar at Simpson will have an abundance of options, regardless of grades, and they will be superior to anything an associate at Shearman who graduated Kent from CLS and was on Law Review will have (assuming, of course, that the associate doesn't choose to clerk and then "upgrade").

[Anonymous User]

Those "consultants" who Michigan hires are absolute morons, except for Kimball. I've had several dubious encounters with them, and when one listens to them, one must consider their motives too. They are, after all, lateral recruiters.

[03121202698008]

Those "consultants" who Michigan hires are absolute morons, except for Kimball. I've had several dubious encounters with them, and when one listens to them, one must consider their motives too. They are, after all, lateral recruiters.

Why is this anonymous? She was pretty decent. Not sure what her motives would have been...and I didn't sense one during the one-on-one meeting I had with her.

I'm not saying GPA is everything after graduation, just that it's not irrelevant.

[Anonymous User]

Why is this anonymous? She was pretty decent. Not sure what her motives would have been...and I didn't sense one during the one-on-one meeting I had with her.

Would be happy to tell you my personal experiences over PM.

I'm not saying GPA is everything after graduation, just that it's not irrelevant.

It's irrelevant for the vast majority of firms.

Edit: Sorry. My above posts were not meant to be anonymous. Username is stanislaw carter

[2LLLL]

I'd rather be a dude with a middling GPA but at a firm like K&E/STB/DPW/Skadden than a dude with Law Review grades at Shearman/Dewey/White & Case

But controlling for the person's law school, someone with "Law Review grades" is more likely to be at a higher rated firm than someone with "a middling GPA"


For instance a grad of School X who was median and went to DPW may indeed have better prospects than a grad of School X who was top 10% and went to Jones Day. However, the top 10% grad is more likely to be at DPW in the first place while the median grad is more likely to be at Jones Day.

Yes, its true that your GPA could be top 10% at OCI and fall to median, or vice versa, because you stopped gunning after you get a job, but students with higher GPAs to start with have more incentives to keep them high (to maintain Latin honors, to gun for a clerkship, etc...) than students with lower GPAs who find jobs...

[Stanislaw Carter]

But controlling for the person's law school, someone with "Law Review grades" is more likely to be at a higher rated firm than someone with "a middling GPA"

Not sure if this is true. ITE, a majority of LR kids at my T10 law school is not headed to the traditional elite firms.

And aside from this, there are still a ton of people with "middling grades" who made it to top firms. They will still have the advantages that those top firms confer.

Edit: Not really sure what I'm arguing for in this post, or what the above post is trying to conclude, so I'll just repeat what I said earlier: Experience at a top firm trumps all for lateraling except when applying to a few firms.

[RVP11]

I'd rather be a dude with a middling GPA but at a firm like K&E/STB/DPW/Skadden than a dude with Law Review grades at Shearman/Dewey/White & Case

But controlling for the person's law school, someone with "Law Review grades" is more likely to be at a higher rated firm than someone with "a middling GPA"


For instance a grad of School X who was median and went to DPW may indeed have better prospects than a grad of School X who was top 10% and went to Jones Day. However, the top 10% grad is more likely to be at DPW in the first place while the median grad is more likely to be at Jones Day.

Yes, its true that your GPA could be top 10% at OCI and fall to median, or vice versa, because you stopped gunning after you get a job, but students with higher GPAs to start with have more incentives to keep them high (to maintain Latin honors, to gun for a clerkship, etc...) than students with lower GPAs who find jobs...

This is all well and good, but has nothing to do with the arguments made.

[Anonymous User]

OP here

Interesting discussion about the value of grades for lateraling at big firms guys! But does anyone have any more input on networking into or getting that initial entry level position fresh out of law school, without showing grades?

I refuse to believe that the hundreds of law students in the bottom 50 or bottom 30% of graduating classes (from T1s), who probably have GPAs between 2.8-3.1, are never able to become attorneys outside of law school. Or that they are all locked into dock review, or all go into solo practice fresh out of school.

[OldManHunger]

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[Kohinoor]

locked into dock review

[Julio_El_Chavo]

locked into dock review

[keg411]

I'd guess 99% of lateral hiring is done through recruiters, not job postings. And the recruiters call the associates and pretty much do all of the legwork. BigLaw lateralling doesn't really work like standard hiring.

[Stanislaw Carter]

I'd guess 99% of lateral hiring is done through recruiters, not job postings. And the recruiters call the associates and pretty much do all of the legwork. BigLaw lateralling doesn't really work like standard hiring.

Probably less so now, since firms don't want to pay the recruiters their commission.

[keg411]

I'd guess 99% of lateral hiring is done through recruiters, not job postings. And the recruiters call the associates and pretty much do all of the legwork. BigLaw lateralling doesn't really work like standard hiring.

Probably less so now, since firms don't want to pay the recruiters their commission.

I have immediate family/friends in BigLaw (mostly new associates), and this is what they've told me. It's still all about recruiting/poaching from other firms/etc. and not about leaving on your own or "applying to jobs". However, this is mostly corp and other specialty practices and not lit, so maybe it's different.