Median, URM, T14 Forum

[Kabuo]

Mr Anon, are you a 0L?

[rundoxierun]

OP - Tell your friend (cousin or whatever, I don't remember) to talk to some 2Ls in BALSA, LALSA or NALSA (whichever applies). Most of the URM students I know at Cornell seem to have done pretty well. Not sure why Mr. Anon is on this particular kick, but from where I sit, things look pretty solid. I would not feel secure if I were her, but with a second semester around the same range as the first, she is likely to get a Biglaw SA.

MrAnon is an anti-Georgetown/Cornell troll... and not a very smart one at that. He just goes from thread to thread saying only the 15-20% of lower-T14 have a chance.

[Anonymous User]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... b#p3671960

Why would this person feel like the only person at median who didn't get an SA if no one at median did?

Seriously, lots of median and below folks got SAs at Cornell this past year. Lots didn't. It seems to come down to bidding strategy and interviewing skills.

[Anonymous User]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

[bk1]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Curious about this too considering I hear purple on TLS argue both ways on URM hiring. Also I've heard for firm hiring it applies to ask minorities, not just URMs.

[Anonymous User]

Um, she's more than fine. The current Cornell 2L class killed it at OCI, and I personally know of several URMs who were at or below median who held multiple offers when all was said and done. Tell her to relax.

[Doritos]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

[IAFG]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

K&E considers asians "diverse." seems like firms might value URM diversity less than schools.

[Aqualibrium]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

K&E considers asians "diverse." seems like firms might value URM diversity less than schools.

Bolded is correct. It's not a situation like in admissions where you can get into schools with a median lsat of 165 with your 152/3.7. As I've said before though, from what I've seen personally/people I've talked to, a URM at a t1 hovering around median can expect to perform about the same as a person at the tail end of the top 25%.

[Doritos]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

K&E considers asians "diverse." seems like firms might value URM diversity less than schools.

Yeah I can agree with that. They still care about it though. Every firm has a "diversity" section on their website so it means at a least a little something to them. I think the real proof is the number of firms that flock to Howard and all those diversity fairs that firms attend. How big of a bearing URM status has is uncertain but its definitely a consideration.

[bk1]

Bolded is correct. It's not a situation like in admissions where you can get into schools with a median lsat of 165 with your 152/3.7. As I've said before though, from what I've seen personally/people I've talked to, a URM at a t1 hovering around median can expect to perform about the same as a person at the tail end of the top 25%.

That seems insane. (Not that I have any knowledge on this, just my reaction to it.)

[Anonymous User]

URMs clearly get a boost, but...

(1) The definition of URM has expanded.
(2) It doesn't mean as much as people think it means. I know many "traditional" URMs who had great grades at great schools who were still rejected from even top firms.
(3) If there is a boost, it's not something that can be quantified. It's more like another factor among many. You all should be familiar with multi-factor tests by now.

[bk1]

URMs clearly get a boost, but...

(1) The definition of URM has expanded.
(2) It doesn't mean as much as people think it means. I know many "traditional" URMs who had great grades at great schools who were still rejected from even top firms.
(3) If there is a boost, it's not something that can be quantified. It's more like another factor among many. You all should be familiar with multi-factor tests by now.

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

[Anonymous User]

Also, in the wake of the economic crisis, diversity programs have been among the first hit. There are many articles about this.

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

Certainly.

[IAFG]

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

no because of over-represented minorities (Indian, Asian, Jewish, etc)

[Doritos]

Also, in the wake of the economic crisis, diversity programs have been among the first hit. There are many articles about this.

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

Certainly.

I do not mean to argue with you, I just haven't seen any evidence of this. Programs like SEO (paid internship for minorities before they even get to law school) are expanding to new firms and cities even in the midst of the downturn. Also, I am not aware of any 1L diversity programs that have been discontinued or cut. Do you know of any off hand because I personally have not seen any. Also, can you link to some of those articles?

[bk1]

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

no because of over-represented minorities (Indian, Asian, Jewish, etc)

So you are saying that firm hiring differentiates between minorities, giving a boost to some but not others?

I mean I can see it in the case of Jewish, but of the non-whites what do you really have other than AA, NA, Hispanic/Latin@, Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern? And they just do it for the traditional URM definition?

[Kohinoor]

So do you guys think that the fact that she's an URM will having any bearing on her employment prospects?

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

K&E considers asians "diverse." seems like firms might value URM diversity less than schools.

Yeah I can agree with that. They still care about it though. Every firm has a "diversity" section on their website so it means at a least a little something to them. I think the real proof is the number of firms that flock to Howard and all those diversity fairs that firms attend. How big of a bearing URM status has is uncertain but its definitely a consideration.

It costs $300-500 to send an associate to Howard's OCI.

[Aqualibrium]

Bolded is correct. It's not a situation like in admissions where you can get into schools with a median lsat of 165 with your 152/3.7. As I've said before though, from what I've seen personally/people I've talked to, a URM at a t1 hovering around median can expect to perform about the same as a person at the tail end of the top 25%.

That seems insane. (Not that I have any knowledge on this, just my reaction to it.)

By "perform" I mean that in a non lottery bid system, a median URM (in this case I can and am only speaking for African-Americans) will get interviews with firms that generally have a hard top 25% cutoff. That is, again, from my personal experience and from people I've talked to. It's important to note that people in the top 25% strike out for a variety of reasons...urms can and do too.

From personal experience (I'm a black male): When I was just above median, I routinely got interviews/callbacks at firms that had hard top 25% cutoffs. When I moved up and was just inside the top 25%, I routinely got interviews/callbacks at firms that had hard top 5-10% cutoffs.

[Doritos]

Yes. Look at the firm initiatives. There are tons of firms with scholarships/summer associate jobs for diverse 1Ls only. URM status matters because firm's clients care. Some people may find it distasteful and thats fine but its reality. Oh and take a look @ the firms that go to Howard to recruit in case you need more convincing. NALP says 305 offices for them. Berkeley has 386 offices. hmmm...

source: --LinkRemoved--

K&E considers asians "diverse." seems like firms might value URM diversity less than schools.

Yeah I can agree with that. They still care about it though. Every firm has a "diversity" section on their website so it means at a least a little something to them. I think the real proof is the number of firms that flock to Howard and all those diversity fairs that firms attend. How big of a bearing URM status has is uncertain but its definitely a consideration.

It costs $300-500 to send an associate to Howard's OCI.

But why send them in the first place? That is the point I am making.

[Anonymous User]

Programs like SEO (paid internship for minorities before they even get to law school) are expanding to new firms and cities even in the midst of the downturn. Also, I am not aware of any 1L diversity programs that have been discontinued or cut. Do you know of any off hand because I personally have not seen any. Also, can you link to some of those articles?

I am not referencing SEO or 1L diversity hiring. I'm talking about 2L hiring and partnership advancement.

I think the real proof is the number of firms that flock to Howard and all those diversity fairs that firms attend. How big of a bearing URM status has is uncertain but its definitely a consideration.

Most of those firms will give maybe 0 to 1 offers to Howard students.

I mean I can see it in the case of Jewish, but of the non-whites what do you really have other than AA, NA, Hispanic/Latin@, Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern? And they just do it for the traditional URM definition?

All non-white minorities have somewhat of an advantage, as well as LGBT students.

[IAFG]

So can we just start saying minority instead of URM?

no because of over-represented minorities (Indian, Asian, Jewish, etc)

So you are saying that firm hiring differentiates between minorities, giving a boost to some but not others?

I mean I can see it in the case of Jewish, but of the non-whites what do you really have other than AA, NA, Hispanic/Latin@, Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern? And they just do it for the traditional URM definition?

i am saying firms interpret being "diverse" more broadly than law schools. i think AA is probably still better than being say, middle eastern, but by interpreting diversity broadly, they can grades-whore more.

[Anonymous User]

But why send them in the first place? That is the point I am making.

Because it's a small cost compared to the benefit of adding just one more diverse member to the class.

[Anonymous User]

From personal experience (I'm a black male): When I was just above median, I routinely got interviews/callbacks at firms that had hard top 25% cutoffs. When I moved up and was just inside the top 25%, I routinely got interviews/callbacks at firms that had hard top 5-10% cutoffs.

This shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything. Published firm cut-offs are routinely ignored by the firms themselves, diversity or otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

Why would the firm's clientele care about the demographics of the firm? Why does it matter to them?