What are the benefits of a joint JD/MBA at T14? Forum

[Voyager]

Would you like to be a partner at a law firm? Would you like to do tax law? Would you like to go into politics? Certain JD/MBAs can help.

On the whole, JD/MBA are just another way for schools to collect more tuition money.

For tax law, it is far better to have a NYU JD/LLM in tax than a top14 JD/MBA.

Exactly.

JD/MBA is fine if you want as many options as possible or if you just really enjoy having extra degrees, but it is better to either pick law or business and then go with that choice.

Again, though, anyone who thinks you will, on average, make more money with a "t-14" JD in this economy than a T-7 business degree is delusional.

FWIW the study I found above looked at people who graduated in 1990 - right around a major legal downturn.

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

[bdubs]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

[A&O]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

Voyager is right now on his high consulting horse. Give him a break, OK?

[Voyager]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

Are you only looking at base salary?

Look, there are more jobs, with as much pay and in some cases much higher pay, that will get you even more pay sooner with much better exit options.

Just how it is.

[Voyager]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

Voyager is right now on his high consulting horse. Give him a break, OK?

I am not on a high horse. Not at all. I just don't understand why people on this site need to constantly lie to themselves about what is going on around them. You want to be a lawyer? Cool. But you are really going to insist that top MBA grads will make less, on average than top JD grads?
Over the course of their careers? And especially in this economy when so many of you will be actually jobless on graduation?

BY the way, I find it strange that when I say MBAs are more lucrative than JDs, you bring up my profession. How does that have any bearing on anything? I have a JD. What does any of this matter to this discussin?

[Stringer Bell]

AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

More and more people are getting MBA's as well.

[magicman554]

A JD/MBA can also be helpful if you work at a large corporation. You might start out in the legal department, make general counsel, and then work your way up the ladder to CEO. I've seen that happen quite a bit.

You've personally seen a bunch of people become a CEO, let alone a bunch of general counsels?

Yes, actually. I don't want to mention names, but I've seen media, biotech/pharmaceutical, and government contractor CEOs with JD/MBAs climb the ladder that way. Not sure I get your weird response.

[Voyager]

AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

More and more people are getting MBA's as well.

But there are way more positions for top MBA students than there are for top JD students.

Look, there is just no question that in terms of a pure monetary perspective, a top MBA is the better deal. Cheaper, you start earning sooner, your income potential is much much much greater, your exit options out of that first job are better, there are more jobs for you in general, the starting compensation of the most common options (IB and consulting) are greater than biglaw...

[JeNeRegretteRien]

The GC of Google has a JD/MBA from Stanford and has said a number of times publicly that it's not only been invaluable, but decisively so (although I can't find a quick reference). I believe John Chambers (CEO of Cisco, and also a JD/MBA) has said it's been hugely helpful to him, and one can see why given how transactional (large B2B deals, lots of M&A) their business is.

Roberta Romano (Prof. of Corp Law at YLS and a giant in the field), at least, seems to think a JD/MBA is valuable and worthwhile for practitioners - especially if it can be done through an integrated 3 year program. Short of an MBA, she argues that a meaningful background in Finance (whether through coursework or professional training) is essential. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... _id=824050

Her's is obviously not the final word, of course, but a well-informed one.

It seems obvious or at least intuitive that, at the margin (all else being equal) most business leaders (CEOs, BoDs, CFOs), are going to feel more comfortable with and trusting of a lawyer with an MBA and/or substantial business experience. The typical antagonism between business people and their lawyers (and consequent marginalization of many legal teams within transaction negotiations or business operating environments) might be ameliorated if the business people see their lawyer as not only an attorney but also a fellow business person who "gets it" - substantively and culturally.

Lastly, I would say, that the MBA is mostly a generalist degree (with some comparatively deeper technical training in the language of business - Finance) that ostensibly helps those who pursue it become better able to lead a business. Law as a field (at least in private practice) is a business. So, of course, an MBA is relevant and helpful to the business side of law.

Having said all that, outside of the technical Finance expertise that might be helpful for younger associates working on things like M&A, the MBA seems most valuable at the Senior Associate, Junior Partner, and Partner level when (a) managing others and/or a P&L, (b) winning business, and (c) interacting with senior leadership at clients is both more likely and more essential to the job.

I would also note that those intangibles and the long-term value of the MBA to a JD aren't going to be as apparent in comparisons of average earning power.

[magicman554]

The GC of Google has a JD/MBA from Stanford and has said a number of times publicly that it's not only been invaluable, but decisively so (although I can't find a quick reference). I believe John Chambers (CEO of Cisco, and also a JD/MBA) has said it's been hugely helpful to him, and one can see why given how transactional (large B2B deals, lots of M&A) their business is.

Roberta Romano (Prof. of Corp Law at YLS and a giant in the field), at least, seems to think a JD/MBA is valuable and worthwhile for practitioners - especially if it can be done through an integrated 3 year program. Short of an MBA, she argues that a meaningful background in Finance (whether through coursework or professional training) is essential. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... _id=824050

Her's is obviously not the final word, of course, but a well-informed one.

It seems obvious or at least intuitive that, at the margin (all else being equal) most business leaders (CEOs, BoDs, CFOs), are going to feel more comfortable with and trusting of a lawyer with an MBA and/or substantial business experience. The typical antagonism between business people and their lawyers (and consequent marginalization of many legal teams within transaction negotiations or business operating environments) might be ameliorated if the business people see their lawyer as not only an attorney but also a fellow business person who "gets it" - substantively and culturally.

Lastly, I would say, that the MBA is mostly a generalist degree (with some comparatively deeper technical training in the language of business - Finance) that ostensibly helps those who pursue it become better able to lead a business. Law as a field (at least in private practice) is a business. So, of course, an MBA is relevant and helpful to the business side of law.

Having said all that, outside of the technical Finance expertise that might be helpful for younger associates working on things like M&A, the MBA seems most valuable at the Senior Associate, Junior Partner, and Partner level when (a) managing others and/or a P&L, (b) winning business, and (c) interacting with senior leadership at clients is both more likely and more essential to the job.

I would also note that those intangibles and the long-term value of the MBA to a JD aren't going to be as apparent in comparisons of average earning power.

TITCR

[bdubs]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

Are you only looking at base salary?

Look, there are more jobs, with as much pay and in some cases much higher pay, that will get you even more pay sooner with much better exit options.

Just how it is.

No, look at the salary table again. The only career track with a significant amount more guaranteed compensation is private equity/hedge funds, which according to my friends getting MBAs (@ HBS, GSB, W) is only open to those coming from an i-banking/pe background anyway. Even if you consider that to be a relevant data point it is only 13% of the graduating class. Consulting salaries are much lower than biglaw and you are left at the mercy of the compensation committee to determine your total compensation (which could easily be much less than biglaw).

[Voyager]

Most common exit options from Harvard Business School? IBanking and Big3 Consulting. Substantially more money with much much better exit options.

Again, you guys are delusionsal.

On top of that, no jobs for law school kids right now. Your 1990 downturn was a joke in comparison. MBA programs are already having a much easier time placing kids. AND more and more lawyers are being produced every year. This glut of attornies is not going to end any time soon.

AND, most people are forced out of biglaw quickly. Meanwhile, your big3 consultants leave consulting after 2-3 years and actually see an INCREASE in income of 1.2 to 1.5 times their consulting salaries. GS dudes are pulling in several hundred thousand a year right out of school.

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/resources/career.html

It's nothing to shit your pants over in comparison to biglaw. An average H MBA vs an average H JD, the JD still probably comes out ahead (even in this economy, H doesn't place that poorly).

Are you only looking at base salary?

Look, there are more jobs, with as much pay and in some cases much higher pay, that will get you even more pay sooner with much better exit options.

Just how it is.

No, look at the salary table again. The only career track with a significant amount more guaranteed compensation is private equity/hedge funds, which according to my friends getting MBAs (@ HBS, GSB, W) is only open to those coming from an i-banking/pe background anyway. Even if you consider that to be a relevant data point it is only 13% of the graduating class. Consulting salaries are much lower than biglaw and you are left at the mercy of the compensation committee to determine your total compensation (which could easily be much less than biglaw).

Depends on the firms you are referring to. I will make more than my biglaw peers by a significant amount while working more humane hours.

[bdubs]

Are you only looking at base salary?

Look, there are more jobs, with as much pay and in some cases much higher pay, that will get you even more pay sooner with much better exit options.

Just how it is.

No, look at the salary table again. The only career track with a significant amount more guaranteed compensation is private equity/hedge funds, which according to my friends getting MBAs (@ HBS, GSB, W) is only open to those coming from an i-banking/pe background anyway. Even if you consider that to be a relevant data point it is only 13% of the graduating class. Consulting salaries are much lower than biglaw and you are left at the mercy of the compensation committee to determine your total compensation (which could easily be much less than biglaw).

Depends on the firms you are referring to. I will make more than my biglaw peers by a significant amount while working more humane hours.

I was talking published averages, not specific firms.

[Voyager]

Are you only looking at base salary?

Look, there are more jobs, with as much pay and in some cases much higher pay, that will get you even more pay sooner with much better exit options.

Just how it is.

No, look at the salary table again. The only career track with a significant amount more guaranteed compensation is private equity/hedge funds, which according to my friends getting MBAs (@ HBS, GSB, W) is only open to those coming from an i-banking/pe background anyway. Even if you consider that to be a relevant data point it is only 13% of the graduating class. Consulting salaries are much lower than biglaw and you are left at the mercy of the compensation committee to determine your total compensation (which could easily be much less than biglaw).

Depends on the firms you are referring to. I will make more than my biglaw peers by a significant amount while working more humane hours.

I was talking published averages, not specific firms.

Yeah, sure. I know.

check out this site: http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

You make partner in 6 years.

Also, your exit options are plentiful and tend to pay 1.2-1.5 times as much.

IBanking is a ton more than that.

Look, the average dude out of HBS has a much great salarly potential and will porbably earn as much if not more than his JD counterpart AND saves a full year of tuition and GAINS a full year of income!

[bdubs]

No, look at the salary table again. The only career track with a significant amount more guaranteed compensation is private equity/hedge funds, which according to my friends getting MBAs (@ HBS, GSB, W) is only open to those coming from an i-banking/pe background anyway. Even if you consider that to be a relevant data point it is only 13% of the graduating class. Consulting salaries are much lower than biglaw and you are left at the mercy of the compensation committee to determine your total compensation (which could easily be much less than biglaw).

Depends on the firms you are referring to. I will make more than my biglaw peers by a significant amount while working more humane hours.

I was talking published averages, not specific firms.

Yeah, sure. I know.

check out this site: http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

You make partner in 6 years.

Also, your exit options are plentiful and tend to pay 1.2-1.5 times as much.

IBanking is a ton more than that.

Look, the average dude out of HBS has a much great salarly potential and will porbably earn as much if not more than his JD counterpart AND saves a full year of tuition and GAINS a full year of income!

We saw on the previous page that the average HBS "dude" with 20 years of experience makes $232,000. For an average that is far lower than a top law school graduate.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

I am not debating you on potential for increased earnings, they are really there. It's just that law school is generally a SAFER bet to a good salary down the line, if you are pretty sure you can get biglaw (ie. most of the people at HLS). That is it.

[Voyager]

We saw on the previous page that the average HBS "dude" with 20 years of experience makes $232,000. For an average that is far lower than a top law school graduate.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

I am not debating you on potential for increased earnings, they are really there. It's just that law school is generally a SAFER bet to a good salary down the line, if you are pretty sure you can get biglaw (ie. most of the people at HLS). That is it.

Well just to compare apples to apples, here are the average HLS numbers:

Over 99% of students are placed in a job within the first few months of graduating, and the average starting salary is around $109,611. --LinkRemoved--

So.... no, looks to me like, on average, they are earning less. IN fact, your first link, shows that the average comp for NE HBS grads is around $140k

[bdubs]

We saw on the previous page that the average HBS "dude" with 20 years of experience makes $232,000. For an average that is far lower than a top law school graduate.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

I am not debating you on potential for increased earnings, they are really there. It's just that law school is generally a SAFER bet to a good salary down the line, if you are pretty sure you can get biglaw (ie. most of the people at HLS). That is it.

Well just to compare apples to apples, here are the average HLS numbers:

Over 99% of students are placed in a job within the first few months of graduating, and the average starting salary is around $109,611. --LinkRemoved--

So.... no, looks to me like, on average, they are earning less. IN fact, your first link, shows that the average comp for NE HBS grads is around $140k

That is not necessarily a relevant comparison. Only 6% of HBS grads CHOSE to pursue employment in government or public interest, whereas 30% chose to do so at HLS. You have two very different career goal sets at HLS and those who do not aim for biglaw should not be really be counted when comparing salary potential for those who are seeking a career based on that metric.

[Voyager]

We saw on the previous page that the average HBS "dude" with 20 years of experience makes $232,000. For an average that is far lower than a top law school graduate.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

I am not debating you on potential for increased earnings, they are really there. It's just that law school is generally a SAFER bet to a good salary down the line, if you are pretty sure you can get biglaw (ie. most of the people at HLS). That is it.

Well just to compare apples to apples, here are the average HLS numbers:

Over 99% of students are placed in a job within the first few months of graduating, and the average starting salary is around $109,611. --LinkRemoved--

So.... no, looks to me like, on average, they are earning less. IN fact, your first link, shows that the average comp for NE HBS grads is around $140k

That is not necessarily a relevant comparison. Only 6% of HBS grads CHOSE to pursue employment in government or public interest, whereas 30% chose to do so at HLS. You have two very different career goal sets at HLS and those who do not aim for biglaw should not be really be counted when comparing salary potential for those who are seeking a career based on that metric.

heh ok. well, seems to me that Big3 consultants are making about $190k the first year and Ibankers are ranking in over $250k. Both of those paths are rather common for HBS.

But look, if you really want to continue thinking that law school leads to more money than business school, than I suppose I am clearly not the guy who is going to change your mind.

[Anonymous User]

You guys have glossed over an important point and missed another one entirely.

1. Bonus is such a significant factor in i-banking, hedge fund, VC/PE, etc. that comparing compensation to BigLaw based on base salary or guaranteed bonus (bonuses in these fields are not contractually guaranteed, but you essentially either make the bonus or get shown the door) is an exercise in futility. For example, in my case, my starting salary at a proprietary trading firm coming out of b-school was $100K, but had my job not dried up (an issue idiosyncratic to my firm and unrelated to the economy), I'd be making somewhere between $200-500K/year.

2. The average student in a top MBA program has several years of post-graduate professional experience. It's pretty well a requirement for admission, and it's certainly a requirement to land one of the jobs we've been talking about. Many of the MBA's who go to work in i-banking or consulting were in those same fields before business school. It might therefore make more sense to compare salaries of first-year MBA's with those of, say, fourth-year lawyers.

[bdubs]

We saw on the previous page that the average HBS "dude" with 20 years of experience makes $232,000. For an average that is far lower than a top law school graduate.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

I am not debating you on potential for increased earnings, they are really there. It's just that law school is generally a SAFER bet to a good salary down the line, if you are pretty sure you can get biglaw (ie. most of the people at HLS). That is it.

Well just to compare apples to apples, here are the average HLS numbers:

Over 99% of students are placed in a job within the first few months of graduating, and the average starting salary is around $109,611. --LinkRemoved--

So.... no, looks to me like, on average, they are earning less. IN fact, your first link, shows that the average comp for NE HBS grads is around $140k

That is not necessarily a relevant comparison. Only 6% of HBS grads CHOSE to pursue employment in government or public interest, whereas 30% chose to do so at HLS. You have two very different career goal sets at HLS and those who do not aim for biglaw should not be really be counted when comparing salary potential for those who are seeking a career based on that metric.

heh ok. well, seems to me that Big3 consultants are making about $190k the first year and Ibankers are ranking in over $250k. Both of those paths are rather common for HBS.

But look, if you really want to continue thinking that law school leads to more money than business school, than I suppose I am clearly not the guy who is going to change your mind.

No one has to convince me that an MBA has great career potential as I will almost certainly be going to a top JD/MBA program. I am glad that you were able to get a consulting gig at a big3 firm and have great compensation. However people on this board who are considering a JD now shouldn't buy into the illusion that big3 or ibanking is an average employment outcome at a top MBA. This is the same as the advice that getting a gig at a v50 out of a top law school is not guaranteed.

For those who are interested:
This is info for HBS on the top employers of their alums. Keep in mind that this is the cream of the crop as far as MBA and even here big3 + ibank type jobs don't even constitute 50% of the graduating class.

http://www.insidehbs.com/top-employers-of-hbs-mbas/

[Voyager]

Sure. Except I just demonstrated that average comp in the North East from HBS is $140k while at HLS it is $110k.

[Anonymous User]

Sure. Except I just demonstrated that average comp in the North East from HBS is $140k while at HLS it is $110k.

Voyager: I want to agree with you as I'm going to a Top-3 consulting firm next year (out of undergrad), where my comp package including bonus and benefits will be between 90k-100k, with base salary of ~73k (it's the rank below yours, obv). But here's the rub: the typical top business school grad has work experience, which means their comp of $140k isn't that remarkable a boost from pre-Bschool, and more saliently should be compared to that of a 3rd or 4th year law associate.

As someone who's entering (or has entered?) consulting from law school, my questions to you are twofold: Does the typical consulting hire have business experience before law school? And is his/her GPA and resume generally on par with what's necessary for a BigLaw offer? (If you don't know general stats, info abt your case would also work to some extent.) It seems to me that that's the best way to compare the caliber of candidates and the opportunities they face.