Symplicity Job Listings Forum

[reasonable_man]

Quality of the cover letter and resume was a big factor as far as how well it was put together, etc. Class rank and school made a difference, i.e. the lower the rank of the school the higher the grades needed to be considered for an interview. I also took into consideration, heavily, prior work experience and what the applicant did the first summer. I gave more points for people that worked in actual firms during the first summer than in “judicial externships” which I regard as, mostly, a bull shit position. That brought me down to about 10 apps. From that point, I reviewed writing samples. After that was done, I picked my top 8 or so and offered them interviews. Then a call back round with the top 4 candidates, at which point we picked the final applicant. Fit and personality played very heavily in the last cut, as this is a small firm and fit is important.

that's helpful thanks man

a lot of people have told me a judicial externship would be a great thing to do for 1L... you think it's just a matter of different people having different perspectives/preferences?

It's just a matter of not that many people getting the opportunity to have 1L firm experience and judicial externships/ra positions being a dime a dozen.

Everyone does the latter, few people do the former. Quite naturally, the few that do the former will have some advantage in the application review process.

This. Its not that I think the judicial externship is per se "bad" its just that its on SO MANY resumes that its really not that big of a deal. By contrast, especially ITE, some law firm experience is a much bigger deal to me personally. I also give a lot of credit to people that worked as paralegals or legal assistants before law school or during college.

[prezidentv8]

When you submit, get the name of the firm and the person correct.

I would imagine that this one is a biggie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUtE1d2fGkY

[djg2111]

Quality of the cover letter and resume was a big factor as far as how well it was put together, etc. Class rank and school made a difference, i.e. the lower the rank of the school the higher the grades needed to be considered for an interview. I also took into consideration, heavily, prior work experience and what the applicant did the first summer. I gave more points for people that worked in actual firms during the first summer than in “judicial externships” which I regard as, mostly, a bull shit position. That brought me down to about 10 apps. From that point, I reviewed writing samples. After that was done, I picked my top 8 or so and offered them interviews. Then a call back round with the top 4 candidates, at which point we picked the final applicant. Fit and personality played very heavily in the last cut, as this is a small firm and fit is important.

This description of the process is really helpful to me. How long did it take to do the two rounds of interviews? I had a couple of interviews, and I'm curious how long I should wait until I give up. With OCI there was a large sample size, but I have no idea how many candidates have interviewed for the same positions as me. Thanks for your help.

[reasonable_man]

Quality of the cover letter and resume was a big factor as far as how well it was put together, etc. Class rank and school made a difference, i.e. the lower the rank of the school the higher the grades needed to be considered for an interview. I also took into consideration, heavily, prior work experience and what the applicant did the first summer. I gave more points for people that worked in actual firms during the first summer than in “judicial externships” which I regard as, mostly, a bull shit position. That brought me down to about 10 apps. From that point, I reviewed writing samples. After that was done, I picked my top 8 or so and offered them interviews. Then a call back round with the top 4 candidates, at which point we picked the final applicant. Fit and personality played very heavily in the last cut, as this is a small firm and fit is important.

This description of the process is really helpful to me. How long did it take to do the two rounds of interviews? I had a couple of interviews, and I'm curious how long I should wait until I give up. With OCI there was a large sample size, but I have no idea how many candidates have interviewed for the same positions as me. Thanks for your help.

The whole process took about 4 to 6 weeks. Call back interviews were announced right after round one. Round one took 2 weeks or so, so depending on whether you had an early or late interview, you could have been invited in for a call back after waiting 2 to 3 weeks or you could have received a call a few days after (if your interview was very late in the process).

[Anonymous User]

I was offered an interview this way with a V-20 firm. The recruiter said they are looking for a few additional summers and whether I am interested in one specific location. I was soon arranged a screening interview. I havent heard back since then (it has been one week), so I assume a ding.

[JazzOne]

I will have a real conundrum on my hands if they offer me a job, but I'll worry about that if/when it happens. The point is that the competition for top jobs didn't go away just because OCI is done. We can all renege on our offers.

This is what law firms call, "exercising bad judgment." You displayed an incredible lack of maturity by making this move.


The legal world is small. If your firm catches one whiff of this, you're toast. I hope it happens.

And I hope you choke on a turkey bone and never return.

I haven't done anything unethical. I haven't even accepted an interview. I have no idea what I'm going to do, but my job this summer will likely have repercussions for the rest of my life, so please forgive me if I explore all my options.

If anyone wants to offer some suggestions, please do. I really am unsure how to handle this situation. I feel loyal to the firm I accepted with, but this other opportunity is much more in line with my goals.

[wiseowl]

this is the most douche-fucking-tastic thread on the intertubes at this moment.

[Anonymous User]

Jazz,

You're right, a lot of people believe that they are entitled to always what is best for them. The problem is that there are quite a few on this board who have NO JOB. If you have a current offer, and you apply to another job and accept an offer there, it is possible that one of those firms will choose not to hire an additional summer associate. What's going through out minds? We are jobless because of your selfishness. Yes, that's what it is--selfishness. If you want to take offense at that, you can. But like you said, you have to look out for yourself.

Now I'm going to look out for myself and be selfish: you're a douche.

That's just me looking out for myself.

Good luck.

P.S. Think about where our country, society, and families would be if everyone could break rules to "get ahead." Unfortunately, it seems like that has already happened in our society.

[drdolittle]

Quality of the cover letter and resume was a big factor as far as how well it was put together, etc. Class rank and school made a difference, i.e. the lower the rank of the school the higher the grades needed to be considered for an interview. I also took into consideration, heavily, prior work experience and what the applicant did the first summer. I gave more points for people that worked in actual firms during the first summer than in “judicial externships” which I regard as, mostly, a bull shit position. That brought me down to about 10 apps. From that point, I reviewed writing samples. After that was done, I picked my top 8 or so and offered them interviews. Then a call back round with the top 4 candidates, at which point we picked the final applicant. Fit and personality played very heavily in the last cut, as this is a small firm and fit is important.

Thanks for the info. You suggested to keep the cover letter short and that you tended to favor applicants with work experience. But wouldn't (shouldn't) these applicants have longer cover letters to connect their past experience with the position posted?

[Aqualibrium]

Jazz,

We are jobless because of your selfishness.

I'm pretty sure it isn't Jazz's fault you don't have a job...

[JazzOne]

Jazz,

You're right, a lot of people believe that they are entitled to always what is best for them. The problem is that there are quite a few on this board who have NO JOB. If you have a current offer, and you apply to another job and accept an offer there, it is possible that one of those firms will choose not to hire an additional summer associate. What's going through out minds? We are jobless because of your selfishness. Yes, that's what it is--selfishness. If you want to take offense at that, you can. But like you said, you have to look out for yourself.

Now I'm going to look out for myself and be selfish: you're a douche.

That's just me looking out for myself.

Good luck.

P.S. Think about where our country, society, and families would be if everyone could break rules to "get ahead." Unfortunately, it seems like that has already happened in our society.

The main problem I have with your posts is the insinuation that I have done something "unethical" or broken "rules to 'get ahead.'" I have never misrepresented myself to any firm. This is not selfishness at all. I went through the OCI ringer just like everyone else, and I had my fair share of heartbreak. I had no idea that a top firm would open up a job this late in the game in the specific field I want. I don't feel entitled to this job or any other. I really don't know how to handle this situation, but one thing I cannot do is factor in the hypothetical job prospects of each and every one of my classmates.

Now, why don't you try networking instead of posting on TLS. hth

[Journeybound]

I'm just saying that once a firm as extended you an "offer" and you "accept" that offer, you should keep your word. You're right, there are probably no consequences for breaking your commitment, but by posting it on a thread that has a good amount of 2Ls still looking for a SA, we feel entitled to tell you that you are a douche.

[JazzOne]

I'm just saying that once a firm as extended you an "offer" and you "accept" that offer, you should keep your word. You're right, there are probably no consequences for breaking your commitment, but by posting it on a thread that has a good amount of 2Ls still looking for a SA, we feel entitled to tell you that you are a douche.

Calling me a douche isn't going to help you get a job. Don't you think it's kind of revealing that I'm continuing to hustle for employment while you bitch about it on TLS? Perhaps that's why I have a job and you don't.

Look, I'm not trying to be a douche. This is a ridiculously difficult decision for me, and I don't really care if you appreciate my predicament or not. I'm sorry if you have been unlucky in your job search.

[Anonymous User]

Top grades 1L year.

Transfer student to T10.

200 targeted mass mails to large firms, medium firms (from where I was born and raised), and small plaintiff's firms in the field that I want to practice in. Sent out before, during, and after OCI.

36 screening interviews at OCI. 7 call backs.

15 government applications so far, resulting in 2 interviews.

I received an interview with a V50 from a symplicty listing. I'm irritated because I'm worried that I might be in the same interview pool as you. I'm probably not, but when you mentioned your situation in THIS thread, I was irritated. You asked what you should do, and quite a few people gave their response.

I honestly do understand that you have a legitimate question. You might want to start another thread for your specific situation.

[drdolittle]

I honestly do understand that you have a legitimate question. You might want to start another thread for your specific situation.

This would be nice.

[JazzOne]

Top grades 1L year.

Transfer student to T10.

200 targeted mass mails to large firms, medium firms (from where I was born and raised), and small plaintiff's firms in the field that I want to practice in. Sent out before, during, and after OCI.

36 screening interviews at OCI. 7 call backs.

15 government applications so far, resulting in 2 interviews.

I received an interview with a V50 from a symplicty listing. I'm irritated because I'm worried that I might be in the same interview pool as you. I'm probably not, but when you mentioned your situation in THIS thread, I was irritated. You asked what you should do, and quite a few people gave their response.

I honestly do understand that you have a legitimate question. You might want to start another thread for your specific situation.

Being irritated doesn't it make it right to accuse me of being unethical and breaking rules to get ahead. That's a douche move. Reneging on an at-will agreement doesn't rise to the level of insults you have hurled.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I'm sorry. You're post got me a little riled up, but I recognize that you have a legit problem. Good luck on securing your job.

[JazzOne]

Honestly, I'm sorry. You're post got me a little riled up, but I recognize that you have a legit problem. Good luck on securing your job.

No worries. I likewise apologize if I have offended you.

Good luck with your V50 interview.

[Anonymous User]

I have no idea what I'm going to do, but my job this summer will likely have repercussions for the rest of my life, so please forgive me if I explore all my options.

Tough tits, bro. You should've "explored your options" when you were interviewing, or at the very least not accepted your offer.

And the whole notion that you can renege on an acceptance because firms have done so to students in the past is quite self-serving. You seem like an intelligent guy, but I'm surprised you don't get this. Here's an analogy: My friend's girlfriend cheated on him, therefore, it's okay for me to cheat on my girlfriend. Unless your firm has specifically shown disregard toward the offers it has handed out, you have no platform on which to stand. Saying you didn't misrepresent yourself is complete nonsense. That implies that there's no difference between keeping an offer open and accepting it. There most definitely is.

but one thing I cannot do is factor in the hypothetical job prospects of each and every one of my classmates.

That's pretty gross. No one is asking you to consider the metaphysical consequences of each counterfactual in which you engage in this act. It's simple enough to consider that your actions hurt others. They deprive others of job options. And if you actually receive and accept your offer, you will be damaging your school's reputation (as well as yours) with respect to the firm you turn down.

Obviously, it's stupid to conclude (or even speculate) that your actions specifically hurt particular posters in this thread. But it's not hard to realize that your actions harm people in the abstract. Then again, you seem to be wearing rose-tinted glasses, thinking you live in a world where your actions are justified, so this whole post will probably fall on deaf ears.

[reasonable_man]

Quality of the cover letter and resume was a big factor as far as how well it was put together, etc. Class rank and school made a difference, i.e. the lower the rank of the school the higher the grades needed to be considered for an interview. I also took into consideration, heavily, prior work experience and what the applicant did the first summer. I gave more points for people that worked in actual firms during the first summer than in “judicial externships” which I regard as, mostly, a bull shit position. That brought me down to about 10 apps. From that point, I reviewed writing samples. After that was done, I picked my top 8 or so and offered them interviews. Then a call back round with the top 4 candidates, at which point we picked the final applicant. Fit and personality played very heavily in the last cut, as this is a small firm and fit is important.

Thanks for the info. You suggested to keep the cover letter short and that you tended to favor applicants with work experience. But wouldn't (shouldn't) these applicants have longer cover letters to connect their past experience with the position posted?

IMHO, not really. If you have truly relevent work experieince, you can bring that to my attention by highlighting it in the cover letter. The cover letter, again, IMHO, should show me that a) you can write well; and b) make me want to read your resume. If it acomplishes that goal, then it has done its job. If it sounds like a rambling re-write of your resume, its less likely to be helpful to you.

[reasonable_man]

Top grades 1L year.

Transfer student to T10.

200 targeted mass mails to large firms, medium firms (from where I was born and raised), and small plaintiff's firms in the field that I want to practice in. Sent out before, during, and after OCI.

36 screening interviews at OCI. 7 call backs.

15 government applications so far, resulting in 2 interviews.

I received an interview with a V50 from a symplicty listing. I'm irritated because I'm worried that I might be in the same interview pool as you. I'm probably not, but when you mentioned your situation in THIS thread, I was irritated. You asked what you should do, and quite a few people gave their response.

I honestly do understand that you have a legitimate question. You might want to start another thread for your specific situation.

Are you the same D-bag that called me out on not being helpful enough in my earlier post? Or are you a different D-bag. And BTW, if you went on 36 screening interviews and failed to land a job; you're doing something really wrong in your interviews. Like, perhaps, being a d-bag. Look into that before the V50 interview.

[Anonymous User]

No, I'm not.

I don't think 7 CBs = D-bag. I think that it has more to do with the area that I targeted and the economy.

[JazzOne]

Tough tits, bro. You should've "explored your options" when you were interviewing, or at the very least not accepted your offer.

This option didn't exist during OCI. It opened up last week, after my offer deadlines. You must be another disgruntled 2L.

And the whole notion that you can renege on an acceptance because firms have done so to students in the past is quite self-serving. You seem like an intelligent guy, but I'm surprised you don't get this. Here's an analogy: My friend's girlfriend cheated on him, therefore, it's okay for me to cheat on my girlfriend. Unless your firm has specifically shown disregard toward the offers it has handed out, you have no platform on which to stand.

That's a straw man, and you know it. I never promised to forgo lucrative opportunities for this firm. I merely accepted an AT-WILL offer of employment. The platform I have to stand on is the need to do what's best for my family, not for you, and not for a firm. To the extent that those decisions hurt my reputation, I'll have to reconsider, but the firm is not going to be hurt one bit regardless of what I decide to do.

Saying you didn't misrepresent yourself is complete nonsense. That implies that there's no difference between keeping an offer open and accepting it. There most definitely is.

Please tell me how I've misrepresented myself. I never lied about my employment. I never signed my offer in blood. I never agreed not to talk to other employers. This situation is unfortunate and delicate, but it's not dishonest, so get off your high horse.

That's pretty gross. No one is asking you to consider the metaphysical consequences of each counterfactual in which you engage in this act. It's simple enough to consider that your actions hurt others. They deprive others of job options. And if you actually receive and accept your offer, you will be damaging your school's reputation (as well as yours) with respect to the firm you turn down.

This isn't depriving anyone of a job. If I renege, the firm is perfectly capable of calling back its interviewees. They might choose not to do so. Then again, maybe they would have hired one fewer SA if I had never applied. Who the hell knows? And really, I'm supposed to make my career choices based on the reputation of my school with over 1,000 law students? Please. The only legitimate point you have made is the potential affect this will have on my reputation. I'll have to consider that further before I proceed.

But it's not hard to realize that your actions harm people in the abstract. Then again, you seem to be wearing rose-tinted glasses, thinking you live in a world where your actions are justified, so this whole post will probably fall on deaf ears.

Again, I disagree. I don't think this harms anyone even in the abstract. In fact, this might even be beneficial to someone. If I renege and the firm decides to reopen the position, then someone will get a job opportunity that he didn't have before. And if that person struck out at OCI, then he definitely wouldn't be competitive for the other job that just opened up. OCI strikeouts should be rooting for me to jump ship from a less-competitive firm.

I appreciate advice on this matter, but please spare me the emotional BS. Even if I did this, it wouldn't hurt the firm, my school, or my classmates. The person with the biggest stake in this is me. I stand to lose more than everyone else combined, so why wouldn't I factor my own interests above others'?

[Anonymous User]

Just one point to Jazz- do you honestly think your action will definitely not harm your classmates or your school? I'm not saying your action is not justified, but saying that reneging accepted offers from 2 firms which, I assume, did OCI at your school, will 100% of the time not harm your classmates, is just wrong. I would think there is a decent chance that at least one of these firms becomes so upset at you that they refuse to do OCI at your school in the future, thus harming your future classmates, and your school. I know for a fact that at my T10 school, a firm was so angry at a student who did not show up to his interview on campus that they threatened to never come back to do OCI at our school.

[Danteshek]

This. Its not that I think the judicial externship is per se "bad" its just that its on SO MANY resumes that its really not that big of a deal. By contrast, especially ITE, some law firm experience is a much bigger deal to me personally. I also give a lot of credit to people that worked as paralegals or legal assistants before law school or during college.

Is this a New Jersey thing? I ask because it seems NJ law graduates often clerk for state judges (and presumably work for them during law school).