to those with bad grades-where will you be working? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just how bad does it look to work a non-law job 2L summer? I am just below median at MVP, struck out at OCI (and at mass mailing/government positions/etc) and am realistically facing getting a waitressing job or something similar

If you're going to take a restaraunt job as your primary summer employment you may as well just drop out of law school now.

You'll definitely be able to find a legal job, there is just a very high likelihood that it will be (a) unpaid (or nominally paid), and (b) probably not going to lead to full time employment after graduation. My recommendation would be to check out your state's attorney general or the USAO, I did that for my 1L summer last summer and it was good experience. I also struck out and its looking like this is what I'll have to do. You have to think long-term at this point, as much as it sucks working in a job that you could have gotten as a 1L (and probably being surrounded by 1Ls preparing for OCI all summer).

This.

I can hardly conceive any 2L end up working in Starbucks if s/he is willing to look for summer employment as if s/he was an 1L. I interned for a judge in my 1L summer, and there was a 2L in our chambers who wanted a firm job but didn't get one during OCI. She was surely the one who could do most substantive work / prepare the best memo among us all due to the extra year of law school experience (and her experience on moot court). She took every opportunity to network with the USAO, the PD's office, and the attorneys from the local firms. I'm not sure whether she has landed a firm job now, but I'm sure she'll get something eventually, probably before she graduates.

TBF, no reasonable people should hold against you for striking out at OCI ITE - there are just a thousand ways for someone with good grades and nice personality to fall between the cracks these days. 160K biglaw becomes difficult once the OCI boat has sailed, but you shouldn't be thinking about working as a waitress, really.

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here, also well above median, probably looking at waiting tables or some other manual labor trade this summer. Don't see why people here are knocking it, it's more lucrative financially than non Biglaw jobs people are getting out of school, and the hours are way better.

[Kohinoor]

MVPB here, also well above median, probably looking at waiting tables or some other manual labor trade this summer. Don't see why people here are knocking it, it's more lucrative financially than non Biglaw jobs people are getting out of school, and the hours are way better.

It's not particularly more lucrative than many non biglaw jobs and hurts your chances of finding a legal hob after graduation.

[Anonymous User]

The only legal jobs available out of graduation are at small firms which pay around 40k a year with biglaw hours, where you just mindlessly doc review. I can make the same amount in carpentry or some other trade with much less hours, and better chances of advancement than a craplaw firm job.

MVPB here, also well above median, probably looking at waiting tables or some other manual labor trade this summer. Don't see why people here are knocking it, it's more lucrative financially than non Biglaw jobs people are getting out of school, and the hours are way better.

It's not particularly more lucrative than many non biglaw jobs and hurts your chances of finding a legal hob after graduation.

[Anonymous User]

So why not just drop out?

[Anonymous User]

Going to have to rely on IBR whether the debt is 90k or 200k, might as well relax and let my unrepayable loans accrue.

[thesteelers]

bumping this thread. So to those c/o 2014 people with bad grades: where are you going to be working?

T30/slightly below median student here, waiting on mid-law call backs and praying.

[Anonymous User]

Just how bad does it look to work a non-law job 2L summer? I am just below median at MVP, struck out at OCI (and at mass mailing/government positions/etc) and am realistically facing getting a waitressing job or something similar

If you're going to take a restaraunt job as your primary summer employment you may as well just drop out of law school now.

You'll definitely be able to find a legal job, there is just a very high likelihood that it will be (a) unpaid (or nominally paid), and (b) probably not going to lead to full time employment after graduation. My recommendation would be to check out your state's attorney general or the USAO, I did that for my 1L summer last summer and it was good experience. I also struck out and its looking like this is what I'll have to do. You have to think long-term at this point, as much as it sucks working in a job that you could have gotten as a 1L (and probably being surrounded by 1Ls preparing for OCI all summer).

I struck out at OCI as a 2L with top 15%/LR grades at a T25, worked for hourly pay at the state AG in my school's state, and just got an offer to go back there after graduation. I also have 3 clerkship interviews. It's not completely over if you strike out at OCI, only if you were dead set on making 160K.

[Anonymous User]

Below median @ lower T14 (not sure how much below, I think I'm just barely in top 60%), v30. LR, plus one partner loved my work experience (all PI, so basically I just got lucky that he was into it). Know someone w/ same GPA and secondary journal who got v20 and another person (who is incredibly charismatic) in bottom quarter (also secondary journal) w/ multiple V60 offers. It seems like fit is much more important than I realized at the beginning of this.

[Anonymous User]

I did OCI last year (2011), but info might still be relevant. After 1L (CCN) I was in the very bottom of my class. Like, probably bottom 10%. Had under a 3.0, although no C's or other discretionary grades. Got an SA at a Vault firm, 50-70 range, through OCI and had 2 other offers from firms in that range. I don't think my situation is typical, as I had no good work experience/IP/anything. I would say that the things I had going for me are that I am a social/friendly person and really prepared for interviews. And by prepare, I don't mean memorized the firm's website (let's be honest - most of them say the same thing). I knew my resume well and could talk for at least a minute about every single thing on there. I thought of the main things I wanted to convey about myself (these changed slightly depending on what it seemed like the firm wanted) and figured out how to make that the takeaway of every answer I gave.

[Anonymous User]

ccn, bottom 1/5th, 3 v100 offers. grades aren't everything.

[Anonymous User]

V25. 3L. Bottom 25% at a T14.

[Anonymous User]

CCN here. Bottom 1/3, maybe a bit lower (not quite sure how the end of the spectrum shakes out). Considering two V30 offers I'm excited about. 4 years work experience, about half of it abroad (government/do-gooder blah blah).

For what it's worth -- I was really nervous about my grades going into screeners, and decided not to mention my transcript at all. I focused on my work experience, resume narrative, and finding a place I'll enjoy (ha) working long hours. I screwed up once and talked about my GPA to a screener, and it was the fastest ding I got (I was fully expecting a prompt GTFO from them anyhow).

That said, I got quite a few dings from screeners I thought went really well, so it's all been pretty haphazard for me.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, striking out at OCI is not the end of the world if you're at a T-14, whether towards the bottom of the class or the top. Unless you were dead set on that 160K/year biglaw job, there are lots of other opportunities out there.

This may be an unpopular opinion around TLS, but there are lots of small/medium sized firms that involve interesting work and start people at 60 or 70K. The key there is that they START people at 60 or 70K. Obviously there's no lockstep progression like there is in biglaw, but by the time you're a mid level associate and you start being more valuable to the firm, you'll probably be approaching six figures. Is this enough to buy a BMW or pay off your student loans in five years? No, clearly its not, but its the beginning of a career, and even after student loan payments its plenty for anyone in their late 20s to get by on.

Plus, working for a smaller firm exposes you to more substantive legal work at the beginning of your career. I can't tell you how many biglaw attorneys I've talked to who would take a third year small law (think insurance defense, for example) lateral who has handled depos, handled motions, and probably even first chaired trials over a third year biglaw lateral who has no practical skills. From what I've seen, this seems to be especially true in secondary markets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that people should try and stop the doom and gloom over striking out at OCI. I know it feels awful and socially isolates you from your peers who are all constantly talking about their swanky biglaw gigs, but try not to be too short sighted. Keep plugging away and you WILL find a job.

[fraught]

FWIW, striking out at OCI is not the end of the world if you're at a T-14, whether towards the bottom of the class or the top. Unless you were dead set on that 160K/year biglaw job, there are lots of other opportunities out there.

This may be an unpopular opinion around TLS, but there are lots of small/medium sized firms that involve interesting work and start people at 60 or 70K. The key there is that they START people at 60 or 70K. Obviously there's no lockstep progression like there is in biglaw, but by the time you're a mid level associate and you start being more valuable to the firm, you'll probably be approaching six figures. Is this enough to buy a BMW or pay off your student loans in five years? No, clearly its not, but its the beginning of a career, and even after student loan payments its plenty for anyone in their late 20s to get by on.

Plus, working for a smaller firm exposes you to more substantive legal work at the beginning of your career. I can't tell you how many biglaw attorneys I've talked to who would take a third year small law (think insurance defense, for example) lateral who has handled depos, handled motions, and probably even first chaired trials over a third year biglaw lateral who has no practical skills. From what I've seen, this seems to be especially true in secondary markets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that people should try and stop the doom and gloom over striking out at OCI. I know it feels awful and socially isolates you from your peers who are all constantly talking about their swanky biglaw gigs, but try not to be too short sighted. Keep plugging away and you WILL find a job.

Thank you for this.

[thesteelers]

I did OCI last year (2011), but info might still be relevant. After 1L (CCN) I was in the very bottom of my class. Like, probably bottom 10%. Had under a 3.0, although no C's or other discretionary grades. Got an SA at a Vault firm, 50-70 range, through OCI and had 2 other offers from firms in that range. I don't think my situation is typical, as I had no good work experience/IP/anything. I would say that the things I had going for me are that I am a social/friendly person and really prepared for interviews. And by prepare, I don't mean memorized the firm's website (let's be honest - most of them say the same thing). I knew my resume well and could talk for at least a minute about every single thing on there. I thought of the main things I wanted to convey about myself (these changed slightly depending on what it seemed like the firm wanted) and figured out how to make that the takeaway of every answer I gave.

could you PM me please? thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I did OCI last year (2011), but info might still be relevant. After 1L (CCN) I was in the very bottom of my class. Like, probably bottom 10%. Had under a 3.0, although no C's or other discretionary grades. Got an SA at a Vault firm, 50-70 range, through OCI and had 2 other offers from firms in that range. I don't think my situation is typical, as I had no good work experience/IP/anything. I would say that the things I had going for me are that I am a social/friendly person and really prepared for interviews. And by prepare, I don't mean memorized the firm's website (let's be honest - most of them say the same thing). I knew my resume well and could talk for at least a minute about every single thing on there. I thought of the main things I wanted to convey about myself (these changed slightly depending on what it seemed like the firm wanted) and figured out how to make that the takeaway of every answer I gave.

How did you get the interview with bottom 10% grades? I'm a good interviewer, but the problem so far has been getting callback interviews, and in some cases, the screener interview. So far, I got only two callbacks, with dings later. Any tips? If you networked your way in, could you briefly elaborate?

[synergy]

V25. 3L. Bottom 25% at a T14.

Did you get a full time offer as a 3l or you summered there as a 2l? Also, either way, could you share how you managed to get that with those grades?

[Anonymous User]

V25. 3L. Bottom 25% at a T14.

Did you get a full time offer as a 3l or you summered there as a 2l? Also, either way, could you share how you managed to get that with those grades?

Networking. I was very specific with what I wanted to do.

[Anonymous User]

I did OCI last year (2011), but info might still be relevant. After 1L (CCN) I was in the very bottom of my class. Like, probably bottom 10%. Had under a 3.0, although no C's or other discretionary grades. Got an SA at a Vault firm, 50-70 range, through OCI and had 2 other offers from firms in that range. I don't think my situation is typical, as I had no good work experience/IP/anything. I would say that the things I had going for me are that I am a social/friendly person and really prepared for interviews. And by prepare, I don't mean memorized the firm's website (let's be honest - most of them say the same thing). I knew my resume well and could talk for at least a minute about every single thing on there. I thought of the main things I wanted to convey about myself (these changed slightly depending on what it seemed like the firm wanted) and figured out how to make that the takeaway of every answer I gave.

How did you get the interview with bottom 10% grades? I'm a good interviewer, but the problem so far has been getting callback interviews, and in some cases, the screener interview. So far, I got only two callbacks, with dings later. Any tips? If you networked your way in, could you briefly elaborate?

It helped that my OCI was lottery, so I ended up with a TON of screeners. (also, I bid super conservatively - focused on nyc, firms that didn't ever take honors kids, and ranked them according to how hard it was to get a screener rather than how much I liked the firm itself). After that, I think I interviewed well. Not perfectly, but I made sure I conveyed certain messages while still letting the conversation flow (i.e. I didn't stop talking to the interviewer about sports so I could tell him about my summer job). I also addressed my grades indirectly. You don't want to say "hey, sorry about my shitty grades, I was sorta sick during the torts exam." But when I spoke about my summer job, I said how much more I enjoyed actual lawyering, how rewarding it was, how I was good at it (show, don't tell), and how it helped me gain a lot of perspective about the law that I think I had lacked during my first year in law school. It helped that my summer job was really substantive and I had client contact, which is interviewers always like hearing about. I think that gave interviewers the impression that I had sort of 'overcome' whatever had caused my grades first year.

Also, its been said a thousand times before, but once you get a CB your grades aren't as much of an issue. Maybe they come into play if the firm is deciding between you and someone else they like equally and need a tie breaker. But if you get the CB it means they are comfortable hiring you regardless of your grades.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody around that has info on what (if anything) they landed from medianish grades at a T30-T25?

Median at T25, multiple offers, 2 at biglaw V60-70, 3 at market paying boutiques. But I am doing patents, so that is why. I know other people doing patent work from my school with similar grades who have offers at biglaw or boutiques too. I would not expect these results from anyone with median at a T25 who wasn't in patents.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody around that has info on what (if anything) they landed from medianish grades at a T30-T25?

Median at T25, multiple offers, 2 at biglaw V60-70, 3 at market paying boutiques. But I am doing patents, so that is why. I know other people doing patent work from my school with similar grades who have offers at biglaw or boutiques too. I would not expect these results from anyone with median at a T25 who wasn't in patents.

This sounds like me. Above median (40% is my estimate) at T25 and going to a market paying boutique in a competitive market. Not 100% sure I want to do patent work but with my grades and no real work experience I didn't feel like I had a choice. I had midlaw options in a secondary market, but if someone's offering me 160 who am I to turn it down? I have no patent experience and am not eligible to sit for the patent bar...(yet). I do think my main positive was that my resume, and the way I talk about my past experiences, really show that I am a hard worker and am not afraid of science. I worked part-time throughout undergrad and busted out 6 internships before law school (half science-related, half law-related). I'm also working for a professor this semester, on a secondary journal, and involved in a community service project. Could I stop doing all this and get better grades? Probably, but I think the extra time studying would only improve my grades slightly whereas these other experiences help distinguish me from the other slightly above median students.

[Anonymous User]

Below Median (I think between 30-50 percentile) at MVPB. Only one offer but v5.

[Anonymous User]

I did OCI last year (2011), but info might still be relevant. After 1L (CCN) I was in the very bottom of my class. Like, probably bottom 10%. Had under a 3.0, although no C's or other discretionary grades. Got an SA at a Vault firm, 50-70 range, through OCI and had 2 other offers from firms in that range. I don't think my situation is typical, as I had no good work experience/IP/anything. I would say that the things I had going for me are that I am a social/friendly person and really prepared for interviews. And by prepare, I don't mean memorized the firm's website (let's be honest - most of them say the same thing). I knew my resume well and could talk for at least a minute about every single thing on there. I thought of the main things I wanted to convey about myself (these changed slightly depending on what it seemed like the firm wanted) and figured out how to make that the takeaway of every answer I gave.

could you PM me please? thanks.

I tried PMing you, but it won't send. Is your inbox full or set not to receive messages?

[harrijust86]

Anybody around that has info on what (if anything) they landed from medianish grades at a T30-T25?

Median at T25, multiple offers, 2 at biglaw V60-70, 3 at market paying boutiques. But I am doing patents, so that is why. I know other people doing patent work from my school with similar grades who have offers at biglaw or boutiques too. I would not expect these results from anyone with median at a T25 who wasn't in patents.

This sounds like me. Above median (40% is my estimate) at T25 and going to a market paying boutique in a competitive market. Not 100% sure I want to do patent work but with my grades and no real work experience I didn't feel like I had a choice. I had midlaw options in a secondary market, but if someone's offering me 160 who am I to turn it down? I have no patent experience and am not eligible to sit for the patent bar...(yet). I do think my main positive was that my resume, and the way I talk about my past experiences, really show that I am a hard worker and am not afraid of science. I worked part-time throughout undergrad and busted out 6 internships before law school (half science-related, half law-related). I'm also working for a professor this semester, on a secondary journal, and involved in a community service project. Could I stop doing all this and get better grades? Probably, but I think the extra time studying would only improve my grades slightly whereas these other experiences help distinguish me from the other slightly above median students.

This! (I hope)

I'm sure I could have gotten better grades 1L year, and in undergrad for that matter (surely couldn't have gotten much worse). I chose to put a more time and effort into other things; friendships, extracurriculars, etc. Will I regret it if I don't end up making 160k? Maybe, but most likely not. Will I cherish it if I do end up making 160k? Of course.

(Edit: I am sure I want to do patent work)