Best Phoenix firm? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Looking for info on Bryan Cave phoenix. Just got a CB there from out of town and would appreciate any inside info.

[Anonymous User]

Looking for info on Bryan Cave phoenix. Just got a CB there from out of town and would appreciate any inside info.

Danger, danger. They have been losing their rainmaking partners in Phoenix, mostly to Polsinelli Shughart, for a couple years now. They used to have ~60 attorneys in the office and are now down to ~40.

[Anonymous User]

Snell is something of a sweatshop, have a habit of hiring girls based on bra size, and it sheds senior associates like it is going out of style.

Snell is probably the most aggressive with requiring time, but most ask for 1800 or 1900 billed.

These are mischaracterizations.

Snell certainly has the sweatshop reputation (as the #1 firm in town, it's also the #1 target for bashing), but Snell's billable hour expectations are pretty standard for the Phoenix market - 1800 to stick around for very long, 2000 to be a top biller (adjusted down slightly for transactional, and up slightly for lit). Also, Snell seems to give billable credit for things other firms don't.

Regarding "shedding senior associates": in my experience, the plurality of associates leave in years 5, 6, or 7 for good opportunities, like firms where they will have a good chance to make partner, academia, government, or local in-house. Mid-level associates at Snell are getting headhunter calls well before they'd be asked to make room; at less prestigious Phoenix firms that's not the case.

[Anonymous User]

I have a callback with Fennemore Craig. Any advice?

[Anonymous User]

Shit, Brownstein Hyatt? I interviewed for one of their other offices. Their official position was that the summer experience was basically just a temp job without even the ghost of a guarantee for a post-law school offer. Once I learned that, I burned the rest of the interview. What a TTT firm.

They bring on summer associates every year in Las Vegas, even when they just told the previous SA they aren't economically able to hire them. Pretty lame.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. All of them have MORE non-equity partners than equity partners. That right there tells you that you are not going to be an equity partner.

Not sure how the big firms having more non-equity partners than equity partners means YOU have no chance of making equity partner. If you're a respected lawyer who generates a significant amount of business for the firm, you have every chance to make equity partner at a big Phoenix firm; probably even more chance than at a top Vault firm.

The equity partner track is also shorter. It is designed to attract senior associates who steal clients from their former firms. It is not designed for new associates. If you work at one of those places welcome to the world of non-equity.

This is flat-out wrong. A (huge) majority of equity partners at both Snell and Fennemore (IDK about Lewis & Roca) are homegrown and have been with their respective firms their entire career. It is harder to get equity as a lateral than as a "lifer" at the firm, all else equal. And Snell, at least, requires lateral partners to go through a waiting period before they can get equity.

[Anonymous User]

To the above: at both fennemore and L&R you are immediately and secretly on one of the partner tracks when you are hired. It is all about bringing in business early. If you don't you are on the non-equity track.

Your typical law student getting hired needs a lightning strike to get equity.

Snell's reputation for shedding associates is well documented.

[Anonymous User]

Snell is something of a sweatshop, have a habit of hiring girls based on bra size, and it sheds senior associates like it is going out of style.

Snell is probably the most aggressive with requiring time, but most ask for 1800 or 1900 billed.

These are mischaracterizations.

Snell certainly has the sweatshop reputation (as the #1 firm in town, it's also the #1 target for bashing), but Snell's billable hour expectations are pretty standard for the Phoenix market - 1800 to stick around for very long, 2000 to be a top biller (adjusted down slightly for transactional, and up slightly for lit). Also, Snell seems to give billable credit for things other firms don't.

Regarding "shedding senior associates": in my experience, the plurality of associates leave in years 5, 6, or 7 for good opportunities, like firms where they will have a good chance to make partner, academia, government, or local in-house. Mid-level associates at Snell are getting headhunter calls well before they'd be asked to make room; at less prestigious Phoenix firms that's not the case.

Regardless of Snell's billable expectations, I'm not sure how being the "# 1 firm in town" is the reason it's a "#1 target for bashing." There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence out there which, like it or not, seems to give the sweatshop reputation to Snell. I don't know if I believe it, but I also have no reason to doubt it.

I know for a fact, though, that Snell isn't the only game in town in terms of getting headhunter calls as a mid level. That's likely par for the course at most of the other big PHX firms (L&R, Fennemore, Osborn, etc)

[Anonymous User]

To the above: at both fennemore and L&R you are immediately and secretly on one of the partner tracks when you are hired. It is all about bringing in business early. If you don't you are on the non-equity track.

Your typical law student getting hired needs a lightning strike to get equity.

Snell's reputation for shedding associates is well documented.

Really? How is it they can place you on a partnership track before you've even started? The only thing they have to base that determination on would be your performance as an SA, and there's no way they expect an SA to show client-getting potential.

[Anonymous User]

To the above: at both fennemore and L&R you are immediately and secretly on one of the partner tracks when you are hired. It is all about bringing in business early. If you don't you are on the non-equity track.

Your typical law student getting hired needs a lightning strike to get equity.

Snell's reputation for shedding associates is well documented.

Really? How is it they can place you on a partnership track before you've even started? The only thing they have to base that determination on would be your performance as an SA, and there's no way they expect an SA to show client-getting potential.

Because the equity track is 3 years, non-equity is about 8 years. This comes from equity partners at both, and it is true. I am sure somebody can break out of the firm's plans for them, but it starts on day one.

I imagine it as a secret conclave and their NALP forms basically agree.

[Anonymous User]

To the above: at both fennemore and L&R you are immediately and secretly on one of the partner tracks when you are hired. It is all about bringing in business early. If you don't you are on the non-equity track.

Your typical law student getting hired needs a lightning strike to get equity.

Snell's reputation for shedding associates is well documented.

Really? How is it they can place you on a partnership track before you've even started? The only thing they have to base that determination on would be your performance as an SA, and there's no way they expect an SA to show client-getting potential.

Because the equity track is 3 years, non-equity is about 8 years. This comes from equity partners at both, and it is true. I am sure somebody can break out of the firm's plans for them, but it starts on day one.

I imagine it as a secret conclave and their NALP forms basically agree.

I just don't get how:

1) equity partner track is 3 years? This just isn't true. There's no way.

2) how would a firm know which track to place an associate on when the associate hasn't even started yet. Makes no sense at all.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on Perkins Coie?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard of offers from Snell or L&R? Or any of the others?

[Anonymous User]

T14, originally from Phoenix, had a callback with Snell in early August. Thought it went well, told them a few days later about a V10 offer that I had in another state, and have yet to hear back from them. No offer, no ding. Maybe they have yet to give any offers?

[Anonymous User]

Good to hear. I'm thinking they might wait til they've done with OCI (or CBs from OCI) in state?

[Anonymous User]

To the above: at both fennemore and L&R you are immediately and secretly on one of the partner tracks when you are hired. It is all about bringing in business early. If you don't you are on the non-equity track.

Your typical law student getting hired needs a lightning strike to get equity.

Snell's reputation for shedding associates is well documented.

Really? How is it they can place you on a partnership track before you've even started? The only thing they have to base that determination on would be your performance as an SA, and there's no way they expect an SA to show client-getting potential.

Because the equity track is 3 years, non-equity is about 8 years. This comes from equity partners at both, and it is true. I am sure somebody can break out of the firm's plans for them, but it starts on day one.

I imagine it as a secret conclave and their NALP forms basically agree.

This is just proof you have no clue what you are talking about and need to stop spreading rumors that are objectively false.

Yes, the non-equity track is 8 years. Yes, the equity track is 3 years. (I'm assuming we're talking about S&W.)

What you don't understand is that you first have to make non-equity partner before you can make equity partner. So if you come in as a lateral partner you have to wait 3 years to get equity. If you come in as a first year associate then it's going to take you 11 years to get equity.

No firm has some "secret equity track" that is determined when you're a junior associate. That would make no sense. The fact that you even thought that could be the case makes me doubt whether you know anything about how law firms function.

[Anonymous User]

Good to hear. I'm thinking they might wait til they've done with OCI (or CBs from OCI) in state?

Last year I don't think the first offers from S&W went out until September.

[Anonymous User]

I know that Snell is conducting call backs until the end of September.

Does anyone know what the CB/offer ratio is at Snell?

[Anonymous User]

I go to a T10. I had a callback with Snell. Ding via snail mail a week later.

[Anonymous User]

I go to a T10. I had a callback with Snell. Ding via snail mail a week later.

Sorry to hear that. What do you attribute the ding to? I have an upcoming callback, any suggestions?

[Anonymous User]

I go to a T10. I had a callback with Snell. Ding via snail mail a week later.

Sorry to hear that. What do you attribute the ding to? I have an upcoming callback, any suggestions?

I'm not sure why I got dinged, I felt really solid about the day. Snell only has 8 spots available. From what it looks like, they tend to save some space for a top student at Kansas, Iowa, ASU, and UA. That leaves very few places open for students at other schools, even within the T10.

Advice? I don't think I should be offering much advice since I got dinged. What school do you attend?

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W. Guess it's just a numbers game.

Also, has anyone heard anything about Greenberg's class for next summer? Have they filled it out yet?

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W.

This has almost always been the case. Top firms are not impressed by median at T10 - they're looking for a lot more like top 5-10% at local school, or top 25% at a top school, in addition to a really good fit. I know of two people at S&W who turned down V10s to be there and I don't think either of them were unusual cases.

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W.

This has almost always been the case. Top regional firms are not impressed by median at T10 - they're looking for a lot more like top 5-10% at local school, or top 25% at a top school, in addition to a really good fit. I know of two people at S&W who turned down V10s to be there and I don't think either of them were unusual cases.

Just to clarify.

[Anonymous User]

Also, has anyone heard anything about Greenberg's class for next summer? Have they filled it out yet?

Full. They generally have a mid-summer reception they pick people out of.