V20 in NYC or Big Secondary Market paying 160K? Forum

[TrampsLikeU$]

I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's one of the Texas cities. If that's the case I would run there and not look back.

Florida, Washington (state), Nevada, Wyoming, South Dakota, and Alaska also have no state income tax.

If not Texas, it could be a FLA firm or one in Seattle.

Only Texas pays 160k though, right? Even ATL doesn't pay 160k- I think market there is around 145k.

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, if you have a really prestigious option and an option in a secondary market, it's always easier and better to start off at the prestigious place and then end up in the secondary market. You have more options. This cannot be said for starting out in the secondary market.

This is one piece of common knowledge I'm not sure I understand. If you have, say, an offer from a V10 and an offer from a firm who's absolutely tops in the secondary market you want to be in the for the long term (like BB/V&E in Texas), what exactly do you gain by going to the V10 first? Haven't you already opened the best door in that secondary market? Shouldn't you go there and start building your career in the place where you want to be long-term?

[NYAssociate]

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[98234872348]

Florida, Washington (state), Nevada, Wyoming, South Dakota, and Alaska also have no state income tax.

If not Texas, it could be a FLA firm or one in Seattle.

Only Texas pays 160k though, right? Even ATL doesn't pay 160k- I think market there is around 145k.

Yeah, very few Florida firms (I think the only one is Weil) pay market.

[BruceWayne]

In my opinion, if you have a really prestigious option and an option in a secondary market, it's always easier and better to start off at the prestigious place and then end up in the secondary market. You have more options. This cannot be said for starting out in the secondary market.

This is one piece of common knowledge I'm not sure I understand. If you have, say, an offer from a V10 and an offer from a firm who's absolutely tops in the secondary market you want to be in the for the long term (like BB/V&E in Texas), what exactly do you gain by going to the V10 first? Haven't you already opened the best door in that secondary market? Shouldn't you go there and start building your career in the place where you want to be long-term?

I don't either. To be honest, especially after talking to lawyers in law firms in the secondary markets, they really do not care--and aren't particularly impressed by someone who left one of the NYC vault 10 firms etc. If you find a firm in a secondary market that you like, just work there, it won't close off any options in that market. This is especially true since a lot of the firms in the secondary markets expect you to have substantive skills, which you often don't get in the big NYC vault firms. As far as the compressed salary range of the secondary markets,there are two thing with this. 1. Especially in Texas, there are a lot of firms that have the same salary scale. Weil, Gibson, Aking Gump, Skadden, and Vinson Elkins come to mind. That's not even accounting for the lit boutiques in Texas that actually pay more than the NYC scale. 2. Frankly, for the firms with the compressed salary ranges, you need to look at it pragmatically. You will probably never see the part of the NYC payscale that is substantially higher because it's very hard to last more than a few years at those firms. The other thing is that even with the compression, the much lower tax rate combined with the much much lower COL means you will actually still make more money in the secondary market.

In the scenario you described, just go to BB etc.

[Grizz]

I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's one of the Texas cities. If that's the case I would run there and not look back.

Florida, Washington (state), Nevada, Wyoming, South Dakota, and Alaska also have no state income tax.

If not Texas, it could be a FLA firm or one in Seattle.

Or Tennessee, but they don't pay 160

[Anonymous User]

1. Especially in Texas, there are a lot of firms that have the same salary scale. Weil, Gibson, Aking Gump, Skadden, and Vinson Elkins come to mind. That's not even accounting for the lit boutiques in Texas that actually pay more than the NYC scale.

I'm confused. Do the Weil/GDCs/etc. in TX pay the same as V&E? Or do they go on the NY scale? Is there somewhere to find this kind of info? Chambers seems to just show one scale for each firm, and NALP is usually missing data. What about difference in bonuses?

Also, would someone who worked at the Weil-type firms have trouble going over to BigTexas if they wanted to after 3-4 years?

Sorry for the flood of questions- This comparison is really relevant for me.

[bgdddymtty]

Just to associate an actual dollar amount with the "a lot more in taxes" thing, I ran the numbers for a single person living in NYC and making $160K. The only deduction (other than standard) that I assumed was $6800 in student loan interest (the approximate interest on a $100K debt load). The total state/city income tax bill comes to $15,792. (You'd get a bit of this back by taking an itemized deduction on your federal taxes instead of the standard deduction, but even that might be a wash since a Texas resident would be in a position, if he so chose, to purchase a home and therefore itemize his mortgage interest. If the Texas resident did itemize, he could also deduct an estimate of what he paid during the year in sales tax, which the NY resident could not do.)

[Anonymous User]

OP, did you make a decision?

[Anonymous User]

I am facing this same problem. Can't decide if I want to be at NYC V10, or BigTex. Anyone else have more thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

There are only two issues here; partnership track, and other exits. For other exits, NYC firms are probably a better bet. As for the partnership track, you are probably much more likely to make partner with BigTex than NYC law. If so, do BigTex.

If you are such a hardass that you can pull partner at V10 NYC, then why the fuck are you in law and not hustling your as into investment banking or private equity?

[Anonymous User]

So I am just guessing that you have an offer from White & Case or Jones Day in NY and you are deciding b/w taking an offer from Fulbright, Baker Botts, or V&E in Houston or Alston Bird or K&S in Atlanta.

[chadwick218]

Keep in mind thatthe V20 firms in NYC had 90%+ offer rates in 2009, while the offer rates for the Big3 in Texas were b/w 50 and 70%. Even in 2010, only V&E had offer rates exceeding 90% in Texas. While job security is important, having a job in the first place is a lot more important, IMO.

[NYAssociate]

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[LawSchoolWannaBe]

Keep in mind thatthe V20 firms in NYC had 90%+ offer rates in 2009, while the offer rates for the Big3 in Texas were b/w 50 and 70%. Even in 2010, only V&E had offer rates exceeding 90% in Texas. While job security is important, having a job in the first place is a lot more important, IMO.

For TX offices, BB was also > 90%.

[BruceWayne]

There are only two issues here; partnership track, and other exits. For other exits, NYC firms are probably a better bet. As for the partnership track, you are probably much more likely to make partner with BigTex than NYC law. If so, do BigTex.

If you are such a hardass that you can pull partner at V10 NYC, then why the fuck are you in law and not hustling your as into investment banking or private equity?

I'm not sure the skill sets are so similar that you can make that claim (outside of the business savvy part). For Ibanking and private equity you're going to have to have very strong quantitative skills--at least if you plan on making it for more than a few years.

[Anonymous User]

Unless this secondary market is SF, your money is going to go a hell of a lot further than it will in NYC.

Hell, even if it's San Francisco, it's going a lot further. New York is really, really expensive.

A few comments:

1. While billable hour requirements might strictly be the same for a branch office as HQ, in many cases the informal expectations to work more might be less (or so I've heard).

2. Depending on the secondary market (i.e. Atlanta and equivalent or smaller), then $160K is pretty elite -- so you'd be effectively starting at the top of that market with lots of regional exit options.

3. The lower offer rates in secondary markets in 2009 aren't going to be duplicated -- what we're seeing in OCI last year and this year are dramatically reduced summer class sizes, in many cases 90% (!) smaller.

4. If you're young and want to live in New York, I'd go for the New York firm. It's going to be insane hours but somehow or another people still end up going out, etc. Not entirely sure how. But, I haven't heard anyone tell me that a New York V20 is going to give significantly better lateral opportunities than regional offices -- but then this is mostly from what I've heard of the bigger secondaries, like SF and Texas. Might be different for truly smaller markets.

[chadwick218]

Keep in mind thatthe V20 firms in NYC had 90%+ offer rates in 2009, while the offer rates for the Big3 in Texas were b/w 50 and 70%. Even in 2010, only V&E had offer rates exceeding 90% in Texas. While job security is important, having a job in the first place is a lot more important, IMO.

For TX offices, BB was also > 90%.

I am not so sure about this. At least on an office by office basis. I was told that at least 2/10 in Dallas were no-offered.

[Anonymous User]

I am in the same situation and i chose NYC based on fit.

[wiseowl]

I don't understand why we're still guessing Atlanta or San Francisco or Seattle. No firms there pay 160 and are in states with no state income tax. He's clearing considering something like V&E/BB Texas or as someone mentioned possibly Weil in Miami.

[Anonymous User]

Keep in mind thatthe V20 firms in NYC had 90%+ offer rates in 2009, while the offer rates for the Big3 in Texas were b/w 50 and 70%. Even in 2010, only V&E had offer rates exceeding 90% in Texas. While job security is important, having a job in the first place is a lot more important, IMO.

For TX offices, BB was also > 90%.

I am not so sure about this. At least on an office by office basis. I was told that at least 2/10 in Dallas were no-offered.

When class sizes are so small, it's really hard to judge offer rates by percentages. I know that a sizeable portion of the BB Dallas class split, and, as nyassociate said, that makes it more likely that there might be no offers, particularly if the SAs made it obvious about their preferences. And when you're talking about a class of ten, one person who gets no offered because of splitting and one bad egg who doesn't show up to work or doesn't try very hard puts the offer rate at 80%.

[Anonymous User]

I am in the same situation and i chose NYC based on fit.

Likewise. I found that associates and partners at BB and VE to really be jerks. I was very impressed with Jones Day in Texas. While I entered this process really wanting to end up in Texas, I imagine that I'll end up at 1 of 2 V10s in NYC. It just seemed to fit my personality.

[LawSchoolWannaBe]

Keep in mind thatthe V20 firms in NYC had 90%+ offer rates in 2009, while the offer rates for the Big3 in Texas were b/w 50 and 70%. Even in 2010, only V&E had offer rates exceeding 90% in Texas. While job security is important, having a job in the first place is a lot more important, IMO.

For TX offices, BB was also > 90%.

I am not so sure about this. At least on an office by office basis. I was told that at least 2/10 in Dallas were no-offered.

32/35 in TX offices got offers.

http://texaslawyer.typepad.com/texas_la ... -summ.html