"It's a bloodbath" vs. "It's a different hiring environment" Forum

[Renzo]

LOL it's pretty common knowledge pal (and just so you know that's Camron, he's a NYC homie so he probably knows it too)

When you look at the leverage ratios at the big NYC firms it's pretty obvious (especially in conjunction with the well known up or out policies of these firms) that your chances of building a long term career out of a spot at say, Skadden NYC is pretty slim. On top of that the sort of work that you generally end up doing as an associate at a big NYC firm (at least in your first few years) isn't going to be all that substantive and hands on. I don't know if you realized this, but most people who start out as associates at the big NYC firms don't last very long. Often they have to move out into non law jobs or into house positions. NYC is basically the toughest market for someone who is looking to actually make firm work a long term career move because so many firms there follow the "hire a ton of associates, work them hard for a few years and get rid of them" model. Basically that bwv812 said was what I was talking about when I made the post, and he's dead on.

You're a clown for a dozen reasons in this single post alone, and I don't have the energy to point them all out.

bwv812: Like I said, I agree that leverage isn't meaningless. And whether taking a gig at a big, highly leveraged firm is the best way to start a career is a matter of personal opinion. My beef with what BW keeps saying is the idea that all those hundreds of associates from Cravath et al that are the "out" in the up-or-out system "often have to move out into non law jobs"--that's just plain crazy to say.

[Anonymous User]

So, should I take the offer to work in NH for 70k I have or one of the 160k BIGLAW offers I have in NYC?

[Pablo Ramirez]

"It's a bloodbath" vs. "It's a different hiring environment" is but a false dichotomy.

It's a different hiring environment. Bloodbaths like this didn't exist before.

[BruceWayne]

LOL it's pretty common knowledge pal (and just so you know that's Camron, he's a NYC homie so he probably knows it too)

When you look at the leverage ratios at the big NYC firms it's pretty obvious (especially in conjunction with the well known up or out policies of these firms) that your chances of building a long term career out of a spot at say, Skadden NYC is pretty slim. On top of that the sort of work that you generally end up doing as an associate at a big NYC firm (at least in your first few years) isn't going to be all that substantive and hands on. I don't know if you realized this, but most people who start out as associates at the big NYC firms don't last very long. Often they have to move out into non law jobs or into house positions. NYC is basically the toughest market for someone who is looking to actually make firm work a long term career move because so many firms there follow the "hire a ton of associates, work them hard for a few years and get rid of them" model. Basically that bwv812 said was what I was talking about when I made the post, and he's dead on.

You're a clown for a dozen reasons in this single post alone, and I don't have the energy to point them all out.

bwv812: Like I said, I agree that leverage isn't meaningless. And whether taking a gig at a big, highly leveraged firm is the best way to start a career is a matter of personal opinion. My beef with what BW keeps saying is the idea that all those hundreds of associates from Cravath et al that are the "out" in the up-or-out system "often have to move out into non law jobs"--that's just plain crazy to say.

You are astoundingly immature. One good way to start off a poor argument is to include weak personal insults at the beginning, which you seem to be an expert in. I think you may want to edit the bolded to say" I don't have the facts to point any of them out"

Look, it's pretty simple. Most NYC firms do work on the up or out model (with very high leverage), and most of what the average associate does at a NYC biglaw firm in the first few years isn't particularly substantive. If your career aim is to work at a law firm for the long run and possibly make of counsel or partner, going to say Skadden NYC isn't the best move. In fact, there are a lot of firms that use the opposite model as a selling point to associates: Williams and Connolly, Wachtell, Patterson Belknap, and Susman come to mind. Part of the reason those firms are so selective is because you actually have a chance of making partner and a long term law firm career out of them. My point as well as BW's is that most of the associates at the highly leveraged NYC firms are pushed out of their positions, and many of them do have to leave behind the idea of making it as a partner in these high profile NYC firms---a situation that isn't nearly as prevalent in other cities.

[enygma]

You are astoundingly immature. One good way to start off a poor argument is to include weak personal insults at the beginning,

oh yeah?

[2ofspades]

lulz

[Renzo]

You are astoundingly immature. One good way to start off a poor argument is to include weak personal insults at the beginning,

oh yeah?

Best part is I didn't even start off an argument with personal attack--it was all personal attack & no argument.

[BruceWayne]

Well at least you know your LAF.

[ScaredWorkedBored]

This isn't secret information. Look at the leverage of firms, look at the number of internally promoted partners per class. Those are your "I'm making a career of this firm" prospects. For attrition before 4 years, i.e. leaving with little substantive expertise, look at the number of senior (4-7 year associates) per class. Anyone who is smart enough to have gotten to this point should be able to do this.

[BruceWayne]

This isn't secret information. Look at the leverage of firms, look at the number of internally promoted partners per class. Those are your "I'm making a career of this firm" prospects. For attrition before 4 years, i.e. leaving with little substantive expertise, look at the number of senior (4-7 year associates) per class. Anyone who is smart enough to have gotten to this point should be able to do this.

Exactly--I'm not sure why some are trying to make this into some wild "theory" that no one's ever heard before.

[NYAssociate]

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