How much does appearance matter? Forum

[dominkay]

also, I've seen older women wear skirt suits with longer skirts (like, mid calf or even longer)- would that work? it doesn't matter if you look attractive, but i think you need to wear something resembling a suit that isn't totally shapeless.

I think it's unacceptable according to many interpretations of Islamic law to have ankles showing.

[sundance95]

OP, do your research-there may well be firms that serve a primarily Muslim client base where your adherence might actually be an advantage. As other posters have said, it will affect your employment, but I don't believe it will prevent it.

[jks289]

The Muslim Student's Association is going to be a much better position to give advice. Seek them out when you start school. It is sadly, probably going to be some degree of challenge for you. But certainly not impossible. I haven't run across a practicing attorney who wore more than a head scarf and pant suit, but I have seen a few UK lawyers who do. They may be a better source of navigating religious/fashion choices. I wouldn't stress too much. Plenty of observant Jews practice in religious apparel. And you're going to want to be looking at firms who are accommodating of your beliefs. Essentially, if someone won't hire you based on your belief or apparel, you don't want to work for them anyway.

Not really comparable. Unmarried Jewish women don't cover their hair. Married Jewish women mostly wear wigs (that look just like regular hair). A skirt suit is perfectly acceptable according to the Jewish laws about modesty, as long as the shirt under it covers the collarbones.

I think it's naive to think that this won't effect her career prospects.

Agreed, not comparable at all.

And I think going to MSAs is a good idea, but there is the danger that their advice will be more concerned with respecting religion than securing career prospects. I understand that OP is definitely concerned with the former, but I think the fact that she posted here probably means that she is legitimately concerned with her prospects as well. I don't think this is a time for answers like "dress however you're comfortable, you don't want to work for someone that doesn't respect that." Unfortunately, given how far from the norm OP's dress is, she needs to know how her dress will affect her career prospects, especially given the time and effort and $ she'll be investing to secure those prospects in law school. And I think the honest answer to that is that the abayah will have a significantly negative impact on her prospects. Maybe in some very specific types of firms or organizations she will be received warmly, but I think the majority of private firms would hesitate to hire someone wearing an abayah in today's America. That's the reality of it.

I meant observant Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish males. With the tallit (shawl) and uncut sideburns, etc. Not entirely comparable, but I'd imagine it seems almost as foreign and difficult for an average American to fully understand. And at least where I am, it is common enough to not turns heads in the legal community.

[MJMD]

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[bk1]

I meant observant Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish males. With the tallit (shawl) and uncut sideburns, etc. Not entirely comparable, but I'd imagine it seems almost as foreign and difficult for an average American to fully understand. And at least where I am, it is common enough to not turns heads in the legal community.

It would turn heads in the same way, but I would expect a different level of acceptance and tolerance towards it.

[Waterman47]

The Muslim Student's Association is going to be a much better position to give advice. Seek them out when you start school. It is sadly, probably going to be some degree of challenge for you. But certainly not impossible. I haven't run across a practicing attorney who wore more than a head scarf and pant suit, but I have seen a few UK lawyers who do. They may be a better source of navigating religious/fashion choices. I wouldn't stress too much. Plenty of observant Jews practice in religious apparel. And you're going to want to be looking at firms who are accommodating of your beliefs. Essentially, if someone won't hire you based on your belief or apparel, you don't want to work for them anyway.

Not really comparable. Unmarried Jewish women don't cover their hair. Married Jewish women mostly wear wigs (that look just like regular hair). A skirt suit is perfectly acceptable according to the Jewish laws about modesty, as long as the shirt under it covers the collarbones.

I think it's naive to think that this won't effect her career prospects.

Agreed, not comparable at all.

And I think going to MSAs is a good idea, but there is the danger that their advice will be more concerned with respecting religion than securing career prospects. I understand that OP is definitely concerned with the former, but I think the fact that she posted here probably means that she is legitimately concerned with her prospects as well. I don't think this is a time for answers like "dress however you're comfortable, you don't want to work for someone that doesn't respect that." Unfortunately, given how far from the norm OP's dress is, she needs to know how her dress will affect her career prospects, especially given the time and effort and $ she'll be investing to secure those prospects in law school. And I think the honest answer to that is that the abayah will have a significantly negative impact on her prospects. Maybe in some very specific types of firms or organizations she will be received warmly, but I think the majority of private firms would hesitate to hire someone wearing an abayah in today's America. That's the reality of it.

I meant observant Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish males. With the tallit (shawl) and uncut sideburns, etc. Not entirely comparable, but I'd imagine it seems almost as foreign and difficult for an average American to fully understand. And at least where I am, it is common enough to not turns heads in the legal community.

Even with Hasidic Jews, it's still quite different than OPs situation. IIRC, they can still wear traditional business clothing and add their religious clothing to it. Same with Muslim women who wear a headscarf with pant suits. But in OP's case, she's not adding religious clothing to traditional attire, she is foregoing traditional attire entirely to wear religious clothing.

And it'd also be naive to ignore the different perceptions of Jews and Muslims in the US.

[goosey]

also, I've seen older women wear skirt suits with longer skirts (like, mid calf or even longer)- would that work? it doesn't matter if you look attractive, but i think you need to wear something resembling a suit that isn't totally shapeless.

I think it's unacceptable according to many interpretations of Islamic law to have ankles showing.

yes, I wouldnt show my ankles.

I have worked on some longer coats---they have shape but might be too "stylish"

I've accepted the fact that I cant wear abayahs and expect to be given good opportunities--as people have said, that really is the sad reality of it. I really just need to find better options that I'm comfortable with.

I have considered trying to find employment in the Middle East. I also dont shake hands with the opposite gender. Theres just a lot of "stuff" that would have to be dealt with if I worked here, whereas if I went abroad it would be part of the culture.

[Waterman47]

also, I've seen older women wear skirt suits with longer skirts (like, mid calf or even longer)- would that work? it doesn't matter if you look attractive, but i think you need to wear something resembling a suit that isn't totally shapeless.

I think it's unacceptable according to many interpretations of Islamic law to have ankles showing.

That would be called "Wahhabism"; and your response would be called "stupid."

However, I do believe that 'shapelessness' is sort of the idea for most Orthodox Muslims. The OP may ultimately have to make some concessions, but they shouldn't be to fashion.

Bold of you to call someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Many/most women who observe Islamic dress don't show their ankles. This is far from "Wahhabism."

[goosey]

Bold of you to call someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Many/most women who observe Islamic dress don't show their ankles. This is far from "Wahhabism."

+1

all women that observe islamic dress do not show their ankles---basically what can show is your face, hands and feet. wahabis do not show their face, hands, and in some cases their feet. ankles cant show, wahabism or mainstream.

[dominkay]

The Muslim Student's Association is going to be a much better position to give advice. Seek them out when you start school. It is sadly, probably going to be some degree of challenge for you. But certainly not impossible. I haven't run across a practicing attorney who wore more than a head scarf and pant suit, but I have seen a few UK lawyers who do. They may be a better source of navigating religious/fashion choices. I wouldn't stress too much. Plenty of observant Jews practice in religious apparel. And you're going to want to be looking at firms who are accommodating of your beliefs. Essentially, if someone won't hire you based on your belief or apparel, you don't want to work for them anyway.

Not really comparable. Unmarried Jewish women don't cover their hair. Married Jewish women mostly wear wigs (that look just like regular hair). A skirt suit is perfectly acceptable according to the Jewish laws about modesty, as long as the shirt under it covers the collarbones.

I think it's naive to think that this won't effect her career prospects.

Agreed, not comparable at all.

And I think going to MSAs is a good idea, but there is the danger that their advice will be more concerned with respecting religion than securing career prospects. I understand that OP is definitely concerned with the former, but I think the fact that she posted here probably means that she is legitimately concerned with her prospects as well. I don't think this is a time for answers like "dress however you're comfortable, you don't want to work for someone that doesn't respect that." Unfortunately, given how far from the norm OP's dress is, she needs to know how her dress will affect her career prospects, especially given the time and effort and $ she'll be investing to secure those prospects in law school. And I think the honest answer to that is that the abayah will have a significantly negative impact on her prospects. Maybe in some very specific types of firms or organizations she will be received warmly, but I think the majority of private firms would hesitate to hire someone wearing an abayah in today's America. That's the reality of it.

I meant observant Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish males. With the tallit (shawl) and uncut sideburns, etc. Not entirely comparable, but I'd imagine it seems almost as foreign and difficult for an average American to fully understand. And at least where I am, it is common enough to not turns heads in the legal community.

Tallit can be tucked into clothes and a kippah is pretty unobtrusive. If you're taking about Hasidic men with peyes, I don't think there are a whole lot of them at big law firms, either. The super-Orthodox mostly work in places that serve their super-religious community. And in that kind of environment, a woman lawyer would be less than welcome (for one thing, she could never be alone with a male colleague or a male client or shake hands with him). I imagine it would be the same for the OP: in a more religious environment, her gender would be a handicap.

[jks289]

I meant observant Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish males. With the tallit (shawl) and uncut sideburns, etc. Not entirely comparable, but I'd imagine it seems almost as foreign and difficult for an average American to fully understand. And at least where I am, it is common enough to not turns heads in the legal community.

It would turn heads in the same way, but I would expect a different level of acceptance and tolerance towards it.

Well it seems like we are discussing two separate groups. One is attorneys. My point about Hasidic Jews is just to say at least in one regard the community is open to accepting distinct religious apparel and practice. I am going to go out on a limb, and assume we are talking about an at least moderately progressive community. If OP is in Alabama (apologies to Southerners) I think this is a huge obstacle. But in California for example (for example Los Angeles' massive Muslim community), professional people tend to be open to these things.

The second group in a potential jury or client pool (and the hiring partners fear of their perception.) To me it seems that most people who would have a knee jerk reaction to Muslim woman's garb, would be likewise uneducated about religious choices outside the mainstream.

I agree this is not a non-issue for the OP. But I also believe there are communities and firms where it will be less of an issue. I mean "don't stress" in the sense that there IS a right fit for the OP. I sincerely hope within a decade or so, this becomes one of those conversations we are shocked we ever needed to have.

[LoriBelle]

Many religious people function just fine in a professional environment, but I agree with some previous posters that when we're arguing pantsuit vs. skirt suit, an abaya is sure to turn heads. You are going to encounter subtle prejudice if you can't wear something approximating a business suit. That's a sad reality, but it's the world we live in.

As far as the shaking hands thing, I don't think that will be as much of a problem. For instance, in my area of the country, you don't shake a woman's hand unless she offers. Also, many Jewish individuals don't shake hands with the opposite gender (Google "Negiah"), so you are not alone. Many Christian and Jewish women cover their hair with a scarf or something else besides a wig (depending on their beliefs/denomination), and many Jewish men wear a kippah.

Talking to your Muslim Student Association is bound to be a great resource. A previous poster expressed concern that they might overly stress religious observance rather than gaining employment, but I think that's unlikely since the members of MSA are likely to be seeking employment themselves and understand which compromises must be made.

I hope you're able to find a style of dress that is sufficiently modest and respectful of your faith, but not so out of the mainstream that it makes it impossible to find employment. I encourage you to stand strong in your convictions and not yield to pressure to conform in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable/immodest/sinful.

[MJMD]

Bold of you to call someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Many/most women who observe Islamic dress don't show their ankles. This is far from "Wahhabism."

Yes, I wouldnt show my ankles.

Apologies.

Damn, this thing is a land mine.

I really hope that there are liberal employers out there, goosey, even at big firms, who wouldn't care about the headscarf or abiyeh; but I think that refusing to shake hands with members of the opposite gender would ultimately be a far bigger career-limiter at most large North American law firms.

[Pearalegal]

Disclaimer- I really don't know much about this except what I observed.

However, I have seen women with the head scarves at various legal offices, in suits cut in the long coat style with loose pants. Sounds like what you described? I thought they looked very professional and actually very pretty regardless.

Something like that seems like it'd be fine--because really, it is a suit, just in a much longer coat cut. When you say that you don't want to compromise your beliefs, is wearing the abayah a part of that or would you be happy just keeping the same cover-upedness?

I think, unfortunately, wearing an abayah would send a much different message than a suit cut in the style I've seen. You want to be able to blend in a little bit and have the "lawyer" look to present to the clients no matter what, which I don't think is prejudiced to say. If it really compromises your beliefs and makes you uncomfortable, certainly don't do it, and I'm sure you'll figure it out. Good luck!

[zanda]

Bold of you to call someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Many/most women who observe Islamic dress don't show their ankles. This is far from "Wahhabism."

Yes, I wouldnt show my ankles.

Apologies.

Damn, this thing is a land mine.

I really hope that there are liberal employers out there, goosey, even at big firms, who wouldn't care about the headscarf or abiyeh; but I think that refusing to shake hands with members of the opposite gender would ultimately be a far bigger career-limiter at most large North American law firms.

shomer negiyah (as mentioned, the Jewish equivalent) is more common than you'd think. I should qualify though and say that most modern orthodox Jews will shake a hand in a business setting when the other person first extends the hand... not sure if OP is willing to do that, but even if she's not I don't think it's a huge distinction.

(secondary note- I think people referring to tallit actually mean tzitzit, the fringes that are found on a tallit (prayer shawl) but also worn by themselves on an undershirt on a daily basis)

[Pearalegal]

For the record (and this is a pretty hookey picture), I saw a lot of women dressed exactly like this, though the suits were darker a lot of the time:

[MJMD]

Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. Not fun. And I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

That's because you did.

[goosey]

Disclaimer- I really don't know much about this except what I observed.

However, I have seen women with the head scarves at various legal offices, in suits cut in the long coat style with loose pants. Sounds like what you described? I thought they looked very professional and actually very pretty regardless.

Something like that seems like it'd be fine--because really, it is a suit, just in a much longer coat cut. When you say that you don't want to compromise your beliefs, is wearing the abayah a part of that or would you be happy just keeping the same cover-upedness?

I think, unfortunately, wearing an abayah would send a much different message than a suit cut in the style I've seen. You want to be able to blend in a little bit and have the "lawyer" look to present to the clients no matter what, which I don't think is prejudiced to say. If it really compromises your beliefs and makes you uncomfortable, certainly don't do it, and I'm sure you'll figure it out. Good luck!

no, abayah is not required--just something modest. What youre describing is exactly what I had tailored.

Also, to the poster that mentioned jewish people not shaking hands with the opposite gender, that is good to hear. I would say that 50% of the time, when people see I am wearing a headscarf, they automatically wait to see if I initiate a handshake, and when I dont, we have a nice smiley hello and thats it. Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. not fun. and I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

[dakatz]

For people to think that such an outfit (given the unfairly negative perception of Muslims in the US) and a refusal to shake hands wouldn't be distracting or important seems really naive.

I've done some hiring and interviewing at a few of my jobs. I really hate excuses, and when I offer to shake the hand of someone I'm interviewing and they had to explain why they won't do it, it would be quite distracting and offputting, seeing as they are making excuses for the very first interaction I have while they are trying to make a first impression. Again, I am not saying that this viewpoint is at all justified or fair. However, I feel that this will be the subconscious reaction in at least a fair number of situations.

[Pearalegal]

I would say that 50% of the time, when people see I am wearing a headscarf, they automatically wait to see if I initiate a handshake, and when I dont, we have a nice smiley hello and thats it. Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. not fun. and I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

I think clothing-wise, if you stick to the long suit coat with pants you'll be 100% fine. Sort of besides the point, but the first lady in the picture looks GREAT to me, I like the cut, haha. To the above comment, I really have seen outfits like that, and because they are suits, they haven't really jumped out at me. Sure, a head scarf isn't exactly common in the office, but no one really raises eyebrows.

I can imagine the hand shaking thing would be awkward, hopefully legal recruiters have been trained in such things. That seems like it could be a really big distraction, much more than a head scarf. Speaking from experience when I've stuck out my hand out of habit, its not that I'm offended, just embarrassed and feel like I've been culturally insensitive and get flustered.

That could be a problem in an interview setting but again, most attorneys are hopefully much more in the know and aware than a little 0L.

[LoriBelle]

Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. Not fun. And I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

That's because you did.

Why is this offensive? Plenty of people don't believe in touching the opposite sex. Granted, I'm not one of them, but honestly, why is this so offensive? In a lot of circles, it's considered impolite for a man to extend his hand to a woman for a handshake anyway (and yes, I'm talking about for non-religious reasons). If the woman is kind and conversant with the person involved, why would he be offended that she didn't want to touch him? Surely the headcovering gives away something about her beliefs and lifestyle, so it's not like it's something personal against the man involved. I don't get this line of reasoning that it's offensive at all.

[Pearalegal]

Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. Not fun. And I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

That's because you did.

Why is this offensive? Plenty of people don't believe in touching the opposite sex. Granted, I'm not one of them, but honestly, why is this so offensive? It's considered impolite for a man to extend his hand to a woman for a handshake anyway. If the woman is kind and conversant with the person involved, why would he be offended that she didn't want to touch him? Surely the headcovering gives away something about her beliefs and lifestyle, so it's not like it's something personal against the man involved. I don't get this line of reasoning that it's offensive at all.

Well, I don't think its silly for someone living in a culture where a handshake is the standard business and personal greeting to feel a knee-jerk sense of offense when someone refuses their hand. After that, I assume reasoning would take over...however, as someone who is pretty stupid, the first time I was in such a situation I had 0 idea what was going on and felt like a leper.

[dakatz]

Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. Not fun. And I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

That's because you did.

Why is this offensive? Plenty of people don't believe in touching the opposite sex. Granted, I'm not one of them, but honestly, why is this so offensive? It's considered impolite for a man to extend his hand to a woman for a handshake anyway. If the woman is kind and conversant with the person involved, why would he be offended that she didn't want to touch him? Surely the headcovering gives away something about her beliefs and lifestyle, so it's not like it's something personal against the man involved. I don't get this line of reasoning that it's offensive at all.

If I offered my hand to someone, and they didn't shake it, I would immediately think that there is something wrong with me, or that this person is repulsed by me. It is all about immediate subconscious reaction, since that is your one moment to make a first impression. It is one thing to not know to do something. But to see clearly what one expects you to do, and then choose to not do it, whatever the reason may be, will be somewhat offputting to a number of people.

[goosey]

I would say that 50% of the time, when people see I am wearing a headscarf, they automatically wait to see if I initiate a handshake, and when I dont, we have a nice smiley hello and thats it. Other times, the person puts their hand out, and I put my hand to my chest and say "Im sorry, I dont shake hands," smile, and say hello--as you can imagine, this is MUCH more awkward. not fun. and I always wind up feeling like I offended the person.

I think clothing-wise, if you stick to the long suit coat with pants you'll be 100% fine. Sort of besides the point, but the first lady in the picture looks GREAT to me, I like the cut, haha. To the above comment, I really have seen outfits like that, and because they are suits, they haven't really jumped out at me. Sure, a head scarf isn't exactly common in the office, but no one really raises eyebrows.

I can imagine the hand shaking thing would be awkward, hopefully legal recruiters have been trained in such things. That seems like it could be a really big distraction, much more than a head scarf. Speaking from experience when I've stuck out my hand out of habit, its not that I'm offended, just embarrassed and feel like I've been culturally insensitive and get flustered.

That could be a problem in an interview setting but again, most attorneys are hopefully much more in the know and aware than a little 0L.

I was interning at a senator's office and was invited to an event with a bunch of politicians---I was walking into the meeting area with the senator and this congressman, when the congressman turned to me and extended his hand. My boss was behind me...I got super awkward and said "i'm sorry..." and did the above. He got embarassed, my boss got embarassed, and i was mortified.

[dominkay]

OP, you haven't mentioned your career goals, where you're going to school, or how much debt you're taking on. I think these things are also worth considering in terms of the risk of dressing differently.